[00:00.000 --> 00:08.240]  This is the Liberty Beat, your daily source for Liberty News and activist updates online
[00:08.240 --> 00:10.080]  at thelibertybeat.com.
[00:10.080 --> 00:15.000]  I'm Brian Hagan with your Liberty Beat for Friday, November 14, 2014.
[00:15.000 --> 00:23.000]  Gold is trading around $1,163, silver around $15.71 and Bitcoin around $396.
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[00:47.520 --> 00:55.000]  In the news, The New York Times is reporting that President Obama next week plans to announce major changes to the immigration enforcement system.
[00:55.000 --> 01:02.000]  That means shielding up to 5 million undocumented immigrants from deportation while providing them with work permits.
[01:02.000 --> 01:12.000]  The paper, citing administration officials with direct knowledge of the plan, says a major change would allow parents of children who are legal residents to obtain legal work documents.
[01:12.000 --> 01:24.000]  CNN reports that President Obama is shifting U.S. policy on Syria as he now believes that ISIS will not be defeated without fighting them in Iraq and Syria,
[01:24.000 --> 01:27.000]  as well as removing President Bashar al-Assad.
[01:27.000 --> 01:38.000]  Senior U.S. government officials and diplomats tell CNN the President has asked his national security team to review the situation in Syria to determine if a change in policy is needed.
[01:38.000 --> 01:45.000]  There are other reports that the United States is being pressured by nations who are currently hosting Syrian refugees, including Turkey.
[01:45.000 --> 01:55.000]  A federal judge has refused to alter the force-feeding being done to hunger striker Abu Dhabi by jailers at the Guantanamo Bay Prison.
[01:55.000 --> 02:02.000]  Judge Gwadis Kessler said the practice lacked compassion and common sense, yet still sided with the government on the practice.
[02:02.000 --> 02:07.000]  Judge Kessler said Dhabi's attorneys failed to prove he had his constitutional rights violated.
[02:07.000 --> 02:11.000]  His attorneys with Human Rights Group, Reprieve, will be appealing the decision.
[02:11.000 --> 02:18.000]  They called on the American public to demand to see the force-feeding videotapes that the Obama administration has fought to keep private.
[02:18.000 --> 02:24.000]  The Liberty Beat, brought to you by Eat Foods Direct, redefining the way you think about storable food.
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[02:46.000 --> 03:08.000]  This is the Liberty Beat for Friday, November 14, 2014. Check out the website at thelibertybeat.com and like us on Facebook at facebook.com slash the Liberty Beat.
[03:17.000 --> 03:23.000]  Tell me, what do you want to do, what you're gonna do?
[03:23.000 --> 03:32.000]  Bad boys, bad boys, what you going to do, what you gonna do when they come for you?
[03:32.000 --> 03:38.000]  Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you?
[03:38.000 --> 03:44.000]  When you were eight and you had bad dreams, you'd go to school and earn the golden rules.
[03:44.000 --> 03:51.000]  So why are you acting like a bloody fool if you're getting a thing about the two bad boys, bad boys?
[03:51.000 --> 03:56.000]  What you gonna do, or what you gonna do when they come for you, bad boys, bad boys?
[03:56.000 --> 04:07.000]  Okay, Howdy Howdy, this is Ray DeKelting and Steve Skidmore on this, the 14th day of November 2014.
[04:07.000 --> 04:09.000]  This year is almost gone.
[04:09.000 --> 04:14.000]  I don't want to talk about it. I'm depressed.
[04:14.000 --> 04:22.000]  Steve, you had something very interesting that you wanted to talk about.
[04:22.000 --> 04:33.000]  I received a call today from a very, very dear friend who pointed out something very interesting in Title 11, USC.
[04:33.000 --> 04:37.000]  If you're wondering what, Title 11, USC, it's a United States code.
[04:37.000 --> 04:40.000]  Title 11 is a bankruptcy code.
[04:40.000 --> 04:46.000]  We speak very often about discharging the underlying debt associated with the note.
[04:46.000 --> 04:50.000]  And several people have been very successful in doing so.
[04:50.000 --> 05:05.000]  However, a foreclosing party will still seek to collect the property using the security instrument, due to trust or mortgage.
[05:05.000 --> 05:24.000]  Well, this friend of mine called and pointed out specifically, 11 USC, 524A2, 524, Effect of Discharge.
[05:24.000 --> 05:27.000]  And keep in mind, let's get some foundation here.
[05:27.000 --> 05:33.000]  What is the point of, or what is the objective of a bankruptcy?
[05:33.000 --> 05:41.000]  It is to discharge, or in other words, remove or wipe out an alleged debt.
[05:41.000 --> 05:44.000]  Discharge or restructure.
[05:44.000 --> 05:46.000]  Discharge or restructure.
[05:46.000 --> 05:49.000]  Now, under some chapters, you can restructure the debt.
[05:49.000 --> 06:02.000]  Now, keeping in mind that secured debt, that is a debt secured by a tangible thing, the tangible thing goes back to the secured party.
[06:02.000 --> 06:08.000]  If anybody's ever had a car repossessed, you signed a note and a security instrument.
[06:08.000 --> 06:14.000]  In a car loan, it's usually the same document where you agree to borrow some money.
[06:14.000 --> 06:20.000]  Okay, there's argument there, but let's not go down that rabbit hole just yet.
[06:20.000 --> 06:23.000]  But you sign a promise to pay.
[06:23.000 --> 06:26.000]  And in the event that you don't pay, they come get the car.
[06:26.000 --> 06:34.000]  A home is the same way with the exception that you have two separate instruments that together make one instrument.
[06:34.000 --> 06:41.000]  That is, the promise to pay, or the negotiable instrument, also called a note.
[06:41.000 --> 06:43.000]  And the security instrument.
[06:43.000 --> 06:45.000]  In some states, they call that a mortgage.
[06:45.000 --> 06:47.000]  In some states, they call that a deed of trust.
[06:47.000 --> 06:50.000]  Here in Texas, we call it a deed of trust.
[06:50.000 --> 06:56.000]  Texas is a lien theory state, not a title theory state.
[06:56.000 --> 06:59.000]  In title theory states, you have judicial foreclosures.
[06:59.000 --> 07:04.000]  In lien theory states, you have deeds of trust and non-judicial foreclosures.
[07:04.000 --> 07:17.000]  However, when the debt, the underlying debt associated with the negotiable instrument is discharged through bankruptcy,
[07:17.000 --> 07:23.000]  that leaves the security instrument just kind of flapping in the breeze out there by itself.
[07:23.000 --> 07:31.000]  A lot of these foreclosure mills think that, oh, well, okay, it doesn't matter if they got the debt discharged.
[07:31.000 --> 07:33.000]  We're going after the collateral.
[07:33.000 --> 07:36.000]  We're going after the house.
[07:36.000 --> 07:51.000]  Well, let's see what the effect of discharge is pursuant to Title 11 of the United States Code, Section 524A2.
[07:51.000 --> 07:54.000]  And I quote,
[07:54.000 --> 08:11.000]  A, a discharge in a case under this title, two, operates as an injunction against the commencement or continuation of an action,
[08:11.000 --> 08:31.000]  comma, the employment of process, comma, or an act, comma, to collect, recover, or offset any such debt as personal liability of a debtor,
[08:31.000 --> 08:37.000]  whether or not discharge of such debt is waived.
[08:37.000 --> 08:40.000]  And it says, and, and then goes on to three.
[08:40.000 --> 08:41.000]  This is late.
[08:41.000 --> 08:42.000]  Hang on a little.
[08:42.000 --> 08:45.000]  Let's back up and read one, A1.
[08:45.000 --> 08:46.000]  Yes.
[08:46.000 --> 08:47.000]  Yes.
[08:47.000 --> 08:52.000]  One, let me read A again because it won't make sense if I just start off with one.
[08:52.000 --> 09:08.000]  A, a discharge in a case under this title, one, voids any judgment at any time obtained to the extent that such judgment is a determination
[09:08.000 --> 09:26.000]  of the personal liability of the debtor with respect to any debt discharged under 727, 944, 1141, 1228, or 1328 of this title.
[09:26.000 --> 09:27.000]  That's Title 11.
[09:27.000 --> 09:32.000]  Whether or not discharge of such debt is waived, two.
[09:32.000 --> 09:33.000]  Okay, hold on.
[09:33.000 --> 09:37.000]  Let me make a comment about judgment.
[09:37.000 --> 09:50.000]  In a non-judicial state, when you grant the deed of trust, you grant a mortgage first.
[09:50.000 --> 09:58.000]  The mortgage is the same as in a judicial state where you grant the lender a claim against the property.
[09:58.000 --> 09:59.000]  Right.
[09:59.000 --> 10:08.000]  That keeps them from having to sue you and then getting a claim against you and then petition the court for a judgment against the
[10:08.000 --> 10:12.000]  property so they can liquidate the property to satisfy the judgment.
[10:12.000 --> 10:15.000]  You're talking about suing the property itself in rem?
[10:15.000 --> 10:16.000]  In rem suit.
[10:16.000 --> 10:22.000]  So since you give the lender a claim against the property, they can sue the property directly.
[10:22.000 --> 10:32.000]  In a non-judicial state, you grant a claim against the property and you also confess the judgment.
[10:32.000 --> 10:38.000]  So they don't have to go to court and sue you to get in rem to get a judgment against the property.
[10:38.000 --> 10:40.000]  You've already confessed it.
[10:40.000 --> 10:47.000]  And that's the judgment we're going to hear when addressing a foreclosure issue.
[10:47.000 --> 10:52.000]  Not the one the court issued but the one you confessed if you're in a non-judicial state.
[10:52.000 --> 10:55.000]  In a judicial state, they have to go to court and get that judgment.
[10:55.000 --> 11:02.000]  So even if they've got a judgment of foreclosure and you do the bankruptcy according to this, it's trash.
[11:02.000 --> 11:04.000]  Yep.
[11:04.000 --> 11:15.000]  It says right there, first words in subsection one, avoids any judgment at any time obtained.
[11:15.000 --> 11:42.000]  That tells me prior, latter in the midst of, avoids any judgment at any time obtained to extend to the extent that such a judgment is a determination of the personal liability of the debtor with respect to any debt discharged under blah, blah, blah of this title.
[11:42.000 --> 11:45.000]  So let's move on to two.
[11:45.000 --> 11:48.000]  Let's tear two apart.
[11:48.000 --> 11:51.000]  Operates as an injunction.
[11:51.000 --> 11:52.000]  Stop right there.
[11:52.000 --> 11:54.000]  What is an injunction, Randy?
[11:54.000 --> 12:01.000]  It's an order to cease and desist or an order preventing someone from taking some action.
[12:01.000 --> 12:03.000]  Correct.
[12:03.000 --> 12:12.000]  So operates as an injunction against the commencement or continuation of an action.
[12:12.000 --> 12:16.000]  Randy, is foreclosure or debt collection an action?
[12:16.000 --> 12:18.000]  It appears to be to me.
[12:18.000 --> 12:30.000]  So this says it stops or enjoins any party from beginning that's there's your commencement or continuing an action if an action has already begun.
[12:30.000 --> 12:40.000]  This is why when you file chapter, any chapter seven, 11, 13 doesn't matter.
[12:40.000 --> 12:51.000]  If you're filing for relief under bankruptcy, this is your automatic stay.
[12:51.000 --> 13:03.000]  This is where the automatic stay comes from because the bankruptcy, the filing actually, this is speaking of the effect of a discharge.
[13:03.000 --> 13:14.000]  However, in the anticipation of a discharge, there is an automatic stay placed on the continuation or commencement of debt collection.
[13:14.000 --> 13:15.000]  Let me read that again.
[13:15.000 --> 13:21.000]  Two, operates as an injunction against the commencement or continuation of an action.
[13:21.000 --> 13:23.000]  The employment of process.
[13:23.000 --> 13:27.000]  Would foreclosure be a process?
[13:27.000 --> 13:28.000]  I think so.
[13:28.000 --> 13:29.000]  I think it would be a process.
[13:29.000 --> 13:31.000]  Yes.
[13:31.000 --> 13:41.000]  Or an act to collect, recover, or offset any such debt as personal liability of the debtor.
[13:41.000 --> 13:46.000]  Whether or not the discharge of such debt is waived.
[13:46.000 --> 14:06.000]  So if an individual is in foreclosure, files for bankruptcy under whatever chapter and is successful in showing that the property is not secured,
[14:06.000 --> 14:20.000]  keep in mind on your schedules, you might want to list your mortgage or your home loan, alleged home loan as unsecured.
[14:20.000 --> 14:30.000]  When you do that, you put an onus pro bandai or a burden of proof on the other party to prove up that it is secured.
[14:30.000 --> 14:35.000]  Let's go to, this brings up bankruptcy rules.
[14:35.000 --> 14:39.000]  Let me find this.
[14:39.000 --> 14:45.000]  R U P T C Y.
[14:45.000 --> 14:53.000]  Three thousand one should have had this pulled up already three thousand one proof of claim.
[14:53.000 --> 15:02.000]  Okay, Mr. Banker man or Mr. Attorney, you claim that the property is secured debt.
[15:02.000 --> 15:04.000]  Really?
[15:04.000 --> 15:08.000]  Prove your claim under rule three thousand one.
[15:08.000 --> 15:11.000]  Three thousand one is not a short rule.
[15:11.000 --> 15:14.000]  So I'm not going to read the whole thing.
[15:14.000 --> 15:19.000]  I would, I would strongly recommend and highly encourage everybody.
[15:19.000 --> 15:22.000]  Don't take my word for this stuff.
[15:22.000 --> 15:24.000]  Go look it up yourself.
[15:24.000 --> 15:26.000]  Do your own research.
[15:26.000 --> 15:27.000]  The remedy is yours.
[15:27.000 --> 15:29.000]  Not mine.
[15:29.000 --> 15:33.000]  I cannot care more for your situation than you do.
[15:33.000 --> 15:36.000]  So you have a burden of doing your own research.
[15:36.000 --> 15:40.000]  And if you're pro se litigant, you're bound to do your own research.
[15:40.000 --> 15:53.000]  However, rule rule three thousand one places a burden on someone who makes a claim such as someone who says, oh, this is this is secured debt.
[15:53.000 --> 15:54.000]  Your honor, really?
[15:54.000 --> 15:55.000]  Prove it up.
[15:55.000 --> 15:57.000]  How is it secured?
[15:57.000 --> 16:09.000]  When you challenge their claim or any evidence that they would bring, they're going to the first thing they're going to bring is a deed of trust.
[16:09.000 --> 16:17.000]  And then they're going to bring in a trustee's deed.
[16:17.000 --> 16:20.000]  Let me make a slight correction.
[16:20.000 --> 16:21.000]  Sure.
[16:21.000 --> 16:27.000]  They're going to bring in a photocopy of what they claim to be a deed of trust.
[16:27.000 --> 16:28.000]  Right.
[16:28.000 --> 16:33.000]  And a photocopy of what they claim to be a substitute trustee's deed.
[16:33.000 --> 16:38.000]  And they're going to claim that this proves that the property was secured.
[16:38.000 --> 16:41.000]  Well, and I hear the music in the background.
[16:41.000 --> 16:51.000]  We can get into UCC and what secured debt is or how to how to perfect a security and security interest. They've got 20 days to do it.
[16:51.000 --> 16:55.000]  And if they don't hot foot it down there to the county reporters office, it's unsecured.
[16:55.000 --> 16:59.000]  512-646-1984 will get you in line to talk to us.
[16:59.000 --> 17:01.000]  We'll be right back.
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[18:01.000 --> 18:05.000]  Are you being harassed by debt collectors with phone calls, letters, or even losses?
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[18:27.000 --> 18:29.000]  How to get debt collectors out of your credit reports?
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[18:39.000 --> 18:45.000]  Personal consultation is available as well. For more information, please visit ruleoflawradio.com
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[18:50.000 --> 18:58.000]  That's ruleoflawradio.com, or email m-i-c-h-a-e-l-m-i-r-r-a-s at yahoo.com.
[18:58.000 --> 19:01.000]  Learn how to stop debt collectors next.
[19:28.000 --> 19:53.000]  Welcome back to ruleoflawradio, folks. We're going to go ahead and open up the phone lines so that you can call in.
[19:53.000 --> 20:00.000]  There we go. The phone lines are open. 512-646-1984 is the number to dial.
[20:00.000 --> 20:06.000]  Add comment. Tell us we're ugly. Whatever you want to do. Ask questions.
[20:06.000 --> 20:12.000]  But where are babies come from? Don't ask that because the jury is still out on that one.
[20:12.000 --> 20:23.000]  I think it's city water. But let's get back into this code here.
[20:23.000 --> 20:34.000]  In bankruptcy code, we've been talking about Title XI. That's the bankruptcy code of United States code.
[20:34.000 --> 20:43.000]  Section 524, effect of discharge A1 and 2. Randy, do you think we ought to go any further with that?
[20:43.000 --> 20:46.000]  Get into 3. I haven't read 3 yet.
[20:46.000 --> 20:48.000]  It seems clear enough.
[20:48.000 --> 20:50.000]  It certainly does.
[20:50.000 --> 20:58.000]  We've had most of our wins in bankruptcy where they claim the property as unsecured.
[20:58.000 --> 21:07.000]  And we need to kind of explain that. In law, you have no duty to stipulate to anything.
[21:07.000 --> 21:12.000]  And we suggest that in law, you don't stipulate to anything.
[21:12.000 --> 21:25.000]  If the other side or any party makes a proactive claim, if you don't stipulate to it, then the other side must prove it up.
[21:25.000 --> 21:36.000]  So when your lawyer, if you're going into bankruptcy, asks you if your property is secured, you tell him no.
[21:36.000 --> 21:44.000]  It may be secured. But what his question is, his question has a deletion in it.
[21:44.000 --> 21:51.000]  Is your property secured by this claiming party?
[21:51.000 --> 22:05.000]  And even if it is the original bank with whom you entered into the loan transaction, you still don't know if they are the holder of the claim against the property.
[22:05.000 --> 22:07.000]  You have no idea who the holder is.
[22:07.000 --> 22:09.000]  The secured party.
[22:09.000 --> 22:28.000]  Perhaps 20, 30 years ago, you could be pretty certain. Prior to the repeal of the Glass-Steel Act, you could be pretty certain that the bank was not speculating with your note, that they were holding it.
[22:28.000 --> 22:39.000]  But after the repeal of the Glass-Steel Act, you could be pretty sure that they used the value of that note through speculation.
[22:39.000 --> 22:44.000]  And they factored out the income stream.
[22:44.000 --> 22:53.000]  They factored it to another party in the form they turned the income stream into the form of a security and sold it on the securities market.
[22:53.000 --> 22:56.000]  So we know they do that.
[22:56.000 --> 23:06.000]  So when it comes to someone asking you, does this party hold the claim to your property, how the heck do you know?
[23:06.000 --> 23:14.000]  You have no way of knowing that, and you have no duty to stipulate to something you don't know about.
[23:14.000 --> 23:22.000]  We had someone go into court here in bankruptcy court here in Fort Worth and actually followed instructions.
[23:22.000 --> 23:29.000]  The lawyers came and they've got a bunch of paperwork. They're talking to the judge and she said, Your Honor, counsel has a stack of papers there.
[23:29.000 --> 23:31.000]  He's referring to, may I look at them?
[23:31.000 --> 23:34.000]  The judge said, Sure, counsel, sure to us.
[23:34.000 --> 23:40.000]  She looks at it and it's copies of her closing documents.
[23:40.000 --> 23:46.000]  And she said, Your Honor, I've never seen these documents before.
[23:46.000 --> 23:48.000]  And the judge says, weren't those your closing documents?
[23:48.000 --> 23:52.000]  No, Your Honor, I have never seen these before. Well, isn't that your signature?
[23:52.000 --> 23:55.000]  Oh, no, Your Honor, I never signed this document.
[23:55.000 --> 24:10.000]  She said he ground on her for 10 minutes and she never backed up and said, Then he sat back, smiled real big, turned to the lawyers and said, Well, counselor, it seems she's never seen these documents before.
[24:10.000 --> 24:15.000]  You're going to have to come back and bring the originals.
[24:15.000 --> 24:21.000]  60 days later at the next hearing, the bank was a no show.
[24:21.000 --> 24:28.000]  Had she stipulated to their standing, she would have lost.
[24:28.000 --> 24:30.000]  As it was, they wrote off the property.
[24:30.000 --> 24:34.000]  Now they still come back and try to foreclose based on the security instrument.
[24:34.000 --> 24:38.000]  That's why this is so important.
[24:38.000 --> 24:54.000]  I'm looking at this and saying, if you have discharged the debt in a bankruptcy and a lawyer files a document with the court attempting to foreclose.
[24:54.000 --> 25:04.000]  Or if he files a document with the counter recorder's office attempting to foreclose that documents fraudulent.
[25:04.000 --> 25:18.000]  And then we go to Santiago Mackie and we sue the lawyer personally because you don't know if the bank has anything to do with this.
[25:18.000 --> 25:23.000]  You just know that this lawyer said they did.
[25:23.000 --> 25:38.000]  I have yet to see a foreclosure where the a representative from the bank came into court and said, Oh, yeah, this is where the holder and this guy's our lawyer.
[25:38.000 --> 25:42.000]  Everything that goes into the court records put in there by the lawyer.
[25:42.000 --> 25:54.000]  So he may just be a debt collector who bought this debt along with a whole stack of others and credit cards and auto loans and who knows what else.
[25:54.000 --> 25:57.000]  He may have nothing to do with it.
[25:57.000 --> 26:13.000]  Not the only time you'll see an agent for the bank come into court is if you're challenging an assignment and your child or or you're challenging business records affidavit.
[26:13.000 --> 26:20.000]  Usually in an MSJ motion for summary judgment, that's where you'll get your your business records affidavits.
[26:20.000 --> 26:27.000]  The affidant may appear and you can grill the affidant.
[26:27.000 --> 26:36.000]  There was generally was like 17 years old still in high school still in high school.
[26:36.000 --> 26:46.000]  And for the signing documents left and right for probably $10 an hour as fast as he or she could kids still in high school.
[26:46.000 --> 27:02.000]  How's this kid go from being a high school student to being a representative for MERS or Bank of America or Wells Fargo or some securities trust.
[27:02.000 --> 27:09.000]  That's about the only time you're going to see any any agent from the bank actually come into court.
[27:09.000 --> 27:23.000]  So yeah, you're right, Randy, everything that's done, everything that's compiled, everything that's filed is done by the attorneys outside the purview of their alleged client.
[27:23.000 --> 27:29.000]  So, you know, he may have been directed by the client to do that, but you don't know that.
[27:29.000 --> 27:36.000]  All you know is the lawyer put all this stuff in there and the lawyer can't testify.
[27:36.000 --> 27:47.000]  That leaves the court with no evidence before the court unless there are documents that he's filed that you didn't challenge that you stipulated to.
[27:47.000 --> 27:51.000]  Challenge everything to nothing.
[27:51.000 --> 27:56.000]  You raised a real good point there when you said the attorneys will testify.
[27:56.000 --> 27:59.000]  Folks, you need to do some studying on that.
[27:59.000 --> 28:07.000]  I have yet to go to court where I have not seen an attorney for the bank testify.
[28:07.000 --> 28:11.000]  What is testifying?
[28:11.000 --> 28:15.000]  Testifying is a statement of facts.
[28:15.000 --> 28:22.000]  Your Honor, the homeowner executed a note and a deed of trust on the 14th.
[28:22.000 --> 28:24.000]  Whoa, objection.
[28:24.000 --> 28:26.000]  How do you know?
[28:26.000 --> 28:28.000]  Were you there?
[28:28.000 --> 28:33.000]  Your Honor, if he's going to continue to testify, let's get him sworn in.
[28:33.000 --> 28:36.000]  I want this under oath.
[28:36.000 --> 28:43.000]  So, I can come back and smack him later.
[28:43.000 --> 28:46.000]  We need to know what testimony is.
[28:46.000 --> 29:01.000]  We need to be able to recognize the moment an attorney starts to testify and object, object, object.
[29:01.000 --> 29:04.000]  Randy?
[29:04.000 --> 29:06.000]  What happened to Randy?
[29:06.000 --> 29:08.000]  Somebody muted my mic again.
[29:08.000 --> 29:10.000]  You got gremlins around there.
[29:10.000 --> 29:12.000]  You got microphone gremlins.
[29:12.000 --> 29:17.000]  Oh, I'm babysitting my sister-in-law's three-pound Yorkie.
[29:17.000 --> 29:19.000]  I think she did it.
[29:19.000 --> 29:24.000]  Oh, a Yorkie gets you a can of rain.
[29:24.000 --> 29:27.000]  Yorkies rule the house.
[29:27.000 --> 29:30.000]  Yeah, usually do.
[29:30.000 --> 29:36.000]  But we need to be able to recognize when an attorney testifies and object to it.
[29:36.000 --> 29:46.000]  Get your objection on the record so that if you go to appeal, you've got something to show the appeals court that you objected to attorney testimony.
[29:46.000 --> 29:50.000]  He is not allowed to testify.
[29:50.000 --> 30:00.000]  And if he does, and even if the judge allows it, we'll be right back, folks. Stay tuned.
[30:00.000 --> 30:09.000]  Do you have looks to die for? According to a new study, killer contaminants are lurking in many popular cosmetic products.
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[33:58.000 --> 34:05.000]  Welcome back to Rule of Law Radio, folks. 512-646-1984. We'll get you in line. Kathy in Texas, we see you there.
[34:05.000 --> 34:18.000]  We've got a little bit more we'd like to cover here. Randy and I spoke over the break and it is, let's say, difficult at best.
[34:18.000 --> 34:25.000]  Without some knowledge as to what testifying is to be able to recognize it.
[34:25.000 --> 34:33.000]  So I've turned to my Black Slaw Dictionary Second Pocket Edition and I'd like to raise an issue about this book.
[34:33.000 --> 34:40.000]  I'm a little disillusioned about this. I looked for a definition the other day and I couldn't find it.
[34:40.000 --> 34:50.000]  But let's go ahead and define testify and testimony.
[34:50.000 --> 34:56.000]  Black Slaw Dictionary Second Pocket Edition 2001. Testify.
[34:56.000 --> 35:13.000]  There's a verb. One, to give evidence as a witness. Let me say it again. To give evidence as a witness. Two, to bear witness.
[35:13.000 --> 35:33.000]  Alright, let's go to testimony. Testimony is a noun. Evidence that a competent witness under oath or affirmation gives at a trial or in an affidavit or deposition.
[35:33.000 --> 35:37.000]  Affirmation. Signature.
[35:37.000 --> 35:44.000]  Yes. Affirmation is a signature.
[35:44.000 --> 35:56.000]  So we can determine that if an attorney stands up in court, Your Honor, the defendants in this case executed, stop right there, buddy.
[35:56.000 --> 36:02.000]  Were you there? Were you a witness?
[36:02.000 --> 36:08.000]  Objection. Your Honor, I would like to Vordyre the witness.
[36:08.000 --> 36:17.000]  Yes. Yes. We've, okay, explain Vordyre real quick.
[36:17.000 --> 36:28.000]  Vordyre is where you examine the witness prior to them going on the stand to determine if they are a competent fact witness.
[36:28.000 --> 36:37.000]  Yes. And if an attorney was not present at closing, he cannot testify to what you signed or executed.
[36:37.000 --> 36:45.000]  So he's offering testimony to the court and these lawyers do this every day.
[36:45.000 --> 37:02.000]  Now, you can testify to your opinions if you are on the stand as an expert witness. Otherwise, you may only testify to best evidence facts that are within your personal knowledge.
[37:02.000 --> 37:16.000]  Yep. And you don't know that I executed a note or a deed of trust. Do you, Mr. Attorney? That should get your objection sustained.
[37:16.000 --> 37:30.000]  This is where these lawyers have a big, big problem. They just can't seem to keep themselves from testifying or offering testimony.
[37:30.000 --> 37:47.000]  In court, whiz pro se litigants seem to be so wrapped up as Randy put it over the break. We seem to get so wrapped up in what we're going to say next that we fail to pay close attention to what the other side is saying.
[37:47.000 --> 37:58.000]  Yes. This is called a meta comment. You pay it. You're not just not paying attention just to the facts and the evidence.
[37:58.000 --> 38:10.000]  At the same time, you have to pay attention to the structure and the structure is the hardest thing, especially for pro se. They got so much to handle anyway.
[38:10.000 --> 38:22.000]  Pro se needs somebody else in there to poke them. And all they do is pay attention to the structure. It's everybody following the structure correctly.
[38:22.000 --> 38:28.000]  Probably what we need to do, Steve, is develop a metaphor.
[38:28.000 --> 38:48.000]  A metaphor to install an internal pattern interruption that will cause you as a pro se to internally interrupt when someone is acting as a lawyer and is making statements of fact.
[38:48.000 --> 38:52.000]  We need this little internal buzzer to go off.
[38:52.000 --> 38:54.000]  Warning.
[38:54.000 --> 38:57.000]  Objection. Objection. Objection.
[38:57.000 --> 39:00.000]  We need to work on that. It is very difficult.
[39:00.000 --> 39:03.000]  It is difficult, but it's not impossible.
[39:03.000 --> 39:23.000]  Once you wrap your mind around what testifying and testimony is, you'll be able to recognize it immediately. And the moment you recognize that the attorney claiming to represent a lender or bank or foreclosing party, as soon as he makes a proactive statement from his own mouth,
[39:23.000 --> 39:39.000]  as soon as he testifies to fact or accuses somebody of doing something like executing a note, executing a deed of trust, went into default. Objection. Objection. Objection.
[39:39.000 --> 39:43.000]  Let me explain how that should be done.
[39:43.000 --> 39:58.000]  Instead of saying your honor, the defendant entered into a loan transaction, your honor, the prosecution or the plaintiff will prove that.
[39:58.000 --> 40:00.000]  Then he can say these things.
[40:00.000 --> 40:01.000]  There you go.
[40:01.000 --> 40:06.000]  But then he has to get to the proof.
[40:06.000 --> 40:20.000]  So listen for that. Is he stating this is a fact or is he telling the court he's going to approve that this is a fact?
[40:20.000 --> 40:24.000]  Good point. Very good point.
[40:24.000 --> 40:32.000]  If you're stepping into court to represent your own claims, folks, you need to know what's going on.
[40:32.000 --> 40:38.000]  There's no better way to know what's going on than to go into court and watch.
[40:38.000 --> 40:48.000]  Go in there prior to the time when something that you own is on the line when you don't have a dog in the hunt.
[40:48.000 --> 40:51.000]  That's when you can watch objectively.
[40:51.000 --> 40:53.000]  You can take notes.
[40:53.000 --> 41:02.000]  You can watch the attorneys and see the process which they use to enter evidence on the record.
[41:02.000 --> 41:06.000]  You can watch them testify.
[41:06.000 --> 41:10.000]  Now, this is not so prevalent.
[41:10.000 --> 41:17.000]  I don't want to say it's not so prevalent in criminal cases as civil cases.
[41:17.000 --> 41:25.000]  When I'm in court, I spend most of my time on the civil side of the bar.
[41:25.000 --> 41:44.000]  But I have yet to go into court and watch a foreclosure attorney fight for his alleged client's presumed right to possess real property without testifying.
[41:44.000 --> 41:49.000]  They all do it.
[41:49.000 --> 41:52.000]  Each and every one.
[41:52.000 --> 41:57.000]  As a pro se litigant, your job is to catch them doing it and object.
[41:57.000 --> 41:59.000]  Don't allow them to get away with it.
[41:59.000 --> 42:01.000]  It's cheating.
[42:01.000 --> 42:03.000]  It's not allowed by law.
[42:03.000 --> 42:09.000]  If he's going to continue to testify, Your Honor, let's get him sworn in.
[42:09.000 --> 42:15.000]  Otherwise, I want him to stop testifying.
[42:15.000 --> 42:22.000]  At that point, you got a banker's attorney thinking, oh my God, now what am I going to say?
[42:22.000 --> 42:24.000]  Now what am I going to do?
[42:24.000 --> 42:31.000]  He may look cool as a cucumber, but inside, you just flipped his world upside down for a few minutes.
[42:31.000 --> 42:33.000]  There's your pattern and eruption.
[42:33.000 --> 42:35.000]  You've knocked him off center.
[42:35.000 --> 42:45.000]  He went into court that day thinking, yeah, I'm going to tell him this, I'm going to tell him that, and I'm going to take their house and I'm going to get paid for doing it.
[42:45.000 --> 42:49.000]  Not if you're going to offer testimony.
[42:49.000 --> 42:52.000]  If you're offering testimony, I get the right to cross examine you.
[42:52.000 --> 42:56.000]  Let's get you sworn in.
[42:56.000 --> 43:08.000]  By the way, if you're going to get sworn in, did you bring a friend with you because now you cannot act as representative counsel.
[43:08.000 --> 43:16.000]  You cannot be both a witness offering testimony and representative counsel at the same time.
[43:16.000 --> 43:20.000]  You can't do it because you cannot be cross examined.
[43:20.000 --> 43:29.000]  Cross examined means you're asked questions by both sides.
[43:29.000 --> 43:33.000]  I might get to ask you questions, but who's going to ask you questions?
[43:33.000 --> 43:36.000]  You came in here by yourself today.
[43:36.000 --> 43:38.000]  I hear the music in the background.
[43:38.000 --> 43:43.000]  512-646-1984, Kathy in Texas, Jeff in Maryland.
[43:43.000 --> 43:44.000]  Hang on with us.
[43:44.000 --> 43:49.000]  We'll run out of wind here in the next few minutes.
[43:49.000 --> 43:50.000]  Stay tuned, folks.
[43:50.000 --> 43:52.000]  You're listening to Rural Law on Friday night.
[43:52.000 --> 43:53.000]  We'll be right back.
[43:53.000 --> 44:09.000]  Hello, my name is Stuart Smith from naturespureorganics.com, and I would like to invite you to come by our store
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[44:43.000 --> 44:47.000]  Don't forget to like us on Facebook for information on events and our products.
[44:47.000 --> 44:49.000]  naturespureorganics.com.
[45:17.000 --> 45:19.000]  Know what your lawyer should be doing.
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[46:14.000 --> 46:34.000]  Welcome back to rule of law radio folks.
[46:34.000 --> 46:37.000]  The phone lines are open. I see we've got three callers.
[46:37.000 --> 46:44.000]  We'll go back to this subject after we take a couple of calls.
[46:44.000 --> 46:47.000]  I know Kathy in Texas has been hanging on for a while, and Kathy,
[46:47.000 --> 46:54.000]  I understand that you have a question related to health savings accounts.
[46:54.000 --> 47:00.000]  That was the initial question, yes, and I'm enjoying that what you're covering.
[47:00.000 --> 47:04.000]  And sorry we haven't called in in a while.
[47:04.000 --> 47:10.000]  That's okay. And I'm irritated because I missed that sweet voice.
[47:10.000 --> 47:14.000]  I know, but, you know, Steve said y'all were going to run out of wind,
[47:14.000 --> 47:17.000]  and I was thinking that Randy's never run out of wind.
[47:17.000 --> 47:24.000]  Well, I don't miss that sweet voice as much as I did a couple of minutes ago.
[47:24.000 --> 47:27.000]  You missed my ribbing, I know that.
[47:27.000 --> 47:32.000]  But about the health care health savings accounts,
[47:32.000 --> 47:35.000]  I was just wondering if you guys had an opinion about them
[47:35.000 --> 47:39.000]  because they've been sold to us really big at work.
[47:39.000 --> 47:43.000]  And, you know, my employer has said, oh, we'll give you a thousand dollars
[47:43.000 --> 47:46.000]  into your account so that you don't have to take insurance with us,
[47:46.000 --> 47:49.000]  and that's cheaper than paying our part of your insurance.
[47:49.000 --> 47:53.000]  Well, Kathy, before we get any deeper, for those who don't know,
[47:53.000 --> 47:55.000]  as a matter of fact I had to look it up,
[47:55.000 --> 47:59.000]  I am looking at the United States Department of Treasury website,
[47:59.000 --> 48:04.000]  and let's define what a health savings account is.
[48:04.000 --> 48:09.000]  According to the Treasury Department, health savings accounts,
[48:09.000 --> 48:17.000]  parentheses, HSAs, and parentheses were created in 2003
[48:17.000 --> 48:21.000]  so that individuals covered by high deductible health plans
[48:21.000 --> 48:30.000]  could receive tax-preferred treatment of money savings,
[48:30.000 --> 48:37.000]  money saved, take two, let me start this over again.
[48:37.000 --> 48:40.000]  Health savings accounts were created in 2003
[48:40.000 --> 48:44.000]  so that individuals covered by high deductible health plans
[48:44.000 --> 48:53.000]  could receive tax-preferred treatment of money saved for medical expenses.
[48:53.000 --> 49:00.000]  Generally, an adult, I'm sorry, generally an adult
[49:00.000 --> 49:04.000]  who is covered by a high deductible health plan
[49:04.000 --> 49:10.000]  may establish an HSA or health savings account.
[49:10.000 --> 49:12.000]  So go ahead.
[49:12.000 --> 49:20.000]  All right, so as I understand it, there is a bank
[49:20.000 --> 49:23.000]  and you make a savings account in the bank.
[49:23.000 --> 49:25.000]  You put your money in every month
[49:25.000 --> 49:29.000]  and you can have it deducted from your paycheck,
[49:29.000 --> 49:32.000]  comes out before taxes into the account,
[49:32.000 --> 49:38.000]  and they hand you a credit card basically against that account.
[49:38.000 --> 49:42.000]  You use it to go, when you go to the doctor, you pay.
[49:42.000 --> 49:46.000]  Just pay as a cash-paying person.
[49:46.000 --> 49:47.000]  You come in.
[49:47.000 --> 49:50.000]  There's not, you know, a copay or anything like that.
[49:50.000 --> 49:52.000]  So you go to the doctor and say,
[49:52.000 --> 49:54.000]  how much do you charge for an HSA person?
[49:54.000 --> 49:57.000]  And they'll say $50, they'll say $100, whatever.
[49:57.000 --> 50:01.000]  So you can use this credit card and it pulls off of that account.
[50:01.000 --> 50:06.000]  And so the account is sitting out there as pre-tax money,
[50:06.000 --> 50:10.000]  only usable for medical expenses.
[50:10.000 --> 50:15.000]  And what happens at age 65, apparently,
[50:15.000 --> 50:19.000]  is that you can just cash it out because at that point
[50:19.000 --> 50:24.000]  you can fall under Medicare for health insurance.
[50:24.000 --> 50:28.000]  And so any extra money that have built up in there
[50:28.000 --> 50:31.000]  then no longer has to be spent for medical.
[50:31.000 --> 50:34.000]  You can roll it into another savings plan
[50:34.000 --> 50:36.000]  or you can just take it out,
[50:36.000 --> 50:38.000]  but then at that point you pay tax on it.
[50:38.000 --> 50:41.000]  So it's been...
[50:41.000 --> 50:43.000]  So it's a tax deferred account.
[50:43.000 --> 50:45.000]  It's a tax deferred account.
[50:45.000 --> 50:48.000]  It's kind of like a 401k that's only allowed to be used
[50:48.000 --> 50:50.000]  for medical expenses.
[50:50.000 --> 50:51.000]  Got you.
[50:51.000 --> 50:53.000]  That's how I view it.
[50:53.000 --> 50:59.000]  And so it's basically a savings account at a bank.
[50:59.000 --> 51:05.000]  And when I started reading the information
[51:05.000 --> 51:07.000]  from the bank themselves,
[51:07.000 --> 51:10.000]  it's got all this stuff in it about...
[51:10.000 --> 51:16.000]  It's all a provision under the Internal Revenue Service, apparently.
[51:16.000 --> 51:19.000]  And it all has to do with taxable stuff.
[51:19.000 --> 51:24.000]  And the bank claims no responsibility whatsoever
[51:24.000 --> 51:27.000]  for you spending that money on wrong things.
[51:27.000 --> 51:28.000]  Right.
[51:28.000 --> 51:31.000]  So it's up to you to go and say at the end of the year,
[51:31.000 --> 51:35.000]  oh, by the way, IRS, I spent this much money on that.
[51:35.000 --> 51:39.000]  And I'm not sure who's supposed to go audit it
[51:39.000 --> 51:42.000]  and take the money back if you screw it up.
[51:42.000 --> 51:45.000]  So I was just wondering, I mean,
[51:45.000 --> 51:47.000]  that kind of thing to me,
[51:47.000 --> 51:54.000]  because what I would have myself is a $1,500 deductible.
[51:54.000 --> 51:58.000]  And so the first $1,500 is out of my pocket
[51:58.000 --> 52:00.000]  or out of that account.
[52:00.000 --> 52:05.000]  And then beyond that, it's supposed to pay 80%
[52:05.000 --> 52:07.000]  if I need more stuff,
[52:07.000 --> 52:11.000]  and I pay up to $10,000 of medical expenses.
[52:11.000 --> 52:13.000]  Let me pause you right there.
[52:13.000 --> 52:14.000]  Yes.
[52:14.000 --> 52:17.000]  If you have a little bit of extra money
[52:17.000 --> 52:19.000]  that you can put into an account
[52:19.000 --> 52:22.000]  to pay unexpected medical bills,
[52:22.000 --> 52:25.000]  why would you turn to the Treasury Department
[52:25.000 --> 52:30.000]  or the IRS or any other entity for this account?
[52:30.000 --> 52:33.000]  Why not set up an account of your own
[52:33.000 --> 52:37.000]  and vow not to touch it unless you have an emergency?
[52:37.000 --> 52:41.000]  That would seem like a much safer deal to me.
[52:41.000 --> 52:45.000]  And that's what I was thinking that the come on for this
[52:45.000 --> 52:48.000]  is that the company is going to give you $1,000
[52:48.000 --> 52:55.000]  and then just hand you $1,000 to keep you from taking...
[52:55.000 --> 52:59.000]  Okay, that creates another question.
[52:59.000 --> 53:04.000]  So is that enough of a carrot?
[53:04.000 --> 53:10.000]  Well, let me ask this other question here.
[53:10.000 --> 53:14.000]  We know that any time you deal with a government entity,
[53:14.000 --> 53:22.000]  there are unseen strings attached to everything they offer.
[53:22.000 --> 53:25.000]  If you crawl in bed with a rapist,
[53:25.000 --> 53:27.000]  what do you think is going to happen?
[53:27.000 --> 53:28.000]  Yeah.
[53:28.000 --> 53:29.000]  Yeah.
[53:29.000 --> 53:30.000]  Is that...
[53:30.000 --> 53:31.000]  Yeah, that's...
[53:31.000 --> 53:37.000]  Because my feeling on it is if it's tangled in with IRS,
[53:37.000 --> 53:39.000]  it's sort of like...
[53:39.000 --> 53:44.000]  Like Randy Bagnard talks about the difference between privilege and right.
[53:44.000 --> 53:45.000]  Yep.
[53:45.000 --> 53:46.000]  Yep.
[53:46.000 --> 53:48.000]  We take our rights and turn it into privileges
[53:48.000 --> 53:49.000]  and what they hand out...
[53:49.000 --> 53:50.000]  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[53:50.000 --> 53:51.000]  Wait a minute.
[53:51.000 --> 53:52.000]  Take that.
[53:52.000 --> 53:56.000]  A right cannot be converted into a privilege.
[53:56.000 --> 53:59.000]  Well, we've given up a right.
[53:59.000 --> 54:00.000]  Okay.
[54:00.000 --> 54:01.000]  And we...
[54:01.000 --> 54:04.000]  Well, you may not have given up a right,
[54:04.000 --> 54:07.000]  but you may be failing to exercise a right.
[54:07.000 --> 54:11.000]  Now, what's the fundamental difference between a right and a privilege?
[54:11.000 --> 54:15.000]  A privilege can be revoked as where a right cannot.
[54:15.000 --> 54:16.000]  That's right.
[54:16.000 --> 54:20.000]  And everything connected to this account can be revoked.
[54:20.000 --> 54:21.000]  Correct.
[54:21.000 --> 54:24.000]  And you lose your money in the process.
[54:24.000 --> 54:29.000]  Or probably worse because all of a sudden you're an enemy of the state.
[54:29.000 --> 54:30.000]  Right.
[54:30.000 --> 54:31.000]  Right.
[54:31.000 --> 54:36.000]  So what is your question in regard to these accounts?
[54:36.000 --> 54:37.000]  I was just wondering.
[54:37.000 --> 54:39.000]  I had not heard of them.
[54:39.000 --> 54:43.000]  I know they've been in place for some time, but I had...
[54:43.000 --> 54:44.000]  Since 2003.
[54:44.000 --> 54:45.000]  Really?
[54:45.000 --> 54:46.000]  Yeah, apparently.
[54:46.000 --> 54:50.000]  But it's just recently that our company has said,
[54:50.000 --> 54:57.000]  oh, this is an option to save money basically on their portion of insurance
[54:57.000 --> 54:59.000]  that they provide for people.
[54:59.000 --> 55:00.000]  Okay.
[55:00.000 --> 55:01.000]  Really?
[55:01.000 --> 55:08.000]  Question, if your company or if the company that you work for is willing to give you $1,000
[55:08.000 --> 55:15.000]  to put in your account, what are they going to get back for that $1,000?
[55:15.000 --> 55:22.000]  I don't know anybody that'll just give $1,000 to somebody without getting something in return.
[55:22.000 --> 55:27.000]  They're going to provide you an insurance policy with a very high deductible,
[55:27.000 --> 55:30.000]  which lowers their overall premium.
[55:30.000 --> 55:31.000]  There you go.
[55:31.000 --> 55:33.000]  And that's what they told us.
[55:33.000 --> 55:35.000]  I mean, they said it right out.
[55:35.000 --> 55:41.000]  They said, when you take the regular insurance plan here and you pay a $10 copay when you
[55:41.000 --> 55:50.000]  go to the doctor and you get 90% coverage on all this other stuff, we pay a premium,
[55:50.000 --> 55:53.000]  a deduction to pay for that.
[55:53.000 --> 55:56.000]  And they match those funds.
[55:56.000 --> 55:58.000]  Can you go to a doctor of your choice?
[55:58.000 --> 56:01.000]  Or do you have to go to a doctor of their choice?
[56:01.000 --> 56:02.000]  They have two plans.
[56:02.000 --> 56:05.000]  You can go to a doctor of your choice and get 80% coverage.
[56:05.000 --> 56:08.000]  You can go to their doctor and get 90.
[56:08.000 --> 56:11.000]  But the premiums are pretty steep.
[56:11.000 --> 56:12.000]  Yeah.
[56:12.000 --> 56:20.000]  And it actually would cost me more premiums and them more premiums than the $1,500 stuff.
[56:20.000 --> 56:21.000]  Okay.
[56:21.000 --> 56:22.000]  Hold on.
[56:22.000 --> 56:30.000]  Do they give you this $1,000 one time or do they give it to you annually?
[56:30.000 --> 56:34.000]  Well, each year that you sign up for this plan.
[56:34.000 --> 56:36.000]  That sounds pretty good.
[56:36.000 --> 56:38.000]  So, and that's what I'm saying.
[56:38.000 --> 56:41.000]  A lot of people are saying, oh, it's just a free savings account.
[56:41.000 --> 56:44.000]  It's free money if you don't get sick.
[56:44.000 --> 56:47.000]  No such thing as free money.
[56:47.000 --> 56:48.000]  Exactly.
[56:48.000 --> 56:49.000]  Exactly.
[56:49.000 --> 56:55.000]  So basically, I just wanted to kind of see if y'all are familiar with them and get an opinion.
[56:55.000 --> 57:00.000]  I think we kind of agree that there are a lot of strengths attached to it.
[57:00.000 --> 57:08.000]  But, you know, we're, I don't know, I'm already both fit in under the IRS anyway because...
[57:08.000 --> 57:18.000]  Well, being a man who believes in strict liability versus limited liability, I don't participate
[57:18.000 --> 57:20.000]  in these complex games.
[57:20.000 --> 57:24.000]  So, I did not know what an HSA was.
[57:24.000 --> 57:26.000]  I had to go look it up.
[57:26.000 --> 57:32.000]  And when I looked it up, my internet search led me to the Treasury Department.
[57:32.000 --> 57:39.000]  I thought if anybody had known about them, they would and they've got a page about it.
[57:39.000 --> 57:45.000]  If anybody wants to know more about health savings accounts, you can go do your research
[57:45.000 --> 57:47.000]  at the Department of the Treasury.
[57:47.000 --> 57:54.000]  But, no, I, tonight was the first time I'd ever heard of it.
[57:54.000 --> 57:56.000]  I've got to admit my ignorance.
[57:56.000 --> 57:57.000]  Okay.
[57:57.000 --> 57:58.000]  Well, that's all right.
[57:58.000 --> 58:03.000]  And then it's not a, you know, a thing to go litigate over, I hope, but anyway.
[58:03.000 --> 58:04.000]  Yeah.
[58:04.000 --> 58:09.000]  I just wanted you to know that my ignorance on the subject was better than Steve's ignorance
[58:09.000 --> 58:11.000]  on the subject.
[58:11.000 --> 58:13.000]  Oh, bless your heart.
[58:13.000 --> 58:16.000]  In other words, you didn't go look it up, did you, Andy?
[58:16.000 --> 58:19.000]  No, I didn't.
[58:19.000 --> 58:20.000]  Okay.
[58:20.000 --> 58:24.000]  Well, I'll let y'all go and thank you so much and love what you're doing.
[58:24.000 --> 58:26.000]  Kathy, thank you very much, folks.
[58:26.000 --> 58:28.000]  We're coming up to the top of the hour break.
[58:28.000 --> 58:33.000]  This is the time to go get popcorn, go to the bathroom, do what you got to do.
[58:33.000 --> 58:35.000]  We'll be back on the other side of the news.
[58:35.000 --> 58:38.000]  512-646-1984.
[58:38.000 --> 58:42.000]  We'll put you in line behind Jeff in Maryland and Mike in Connecticut.
[58:42.000 --> 58:44.000]  We'll be right back after the news, folks.
[58:44.000 --> 58:47.000]  Stay tuned, you're listening to Rule of Law Radio.
[59:14.000 --> 59:19.000]  These books are a three-volume set called Basic Elements of the Christian Life.
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[59:56.000 --> 01:00:07.000]  This is the Liberty Beat, your daily source for Liberty News and activist updates.
[01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:10.000]  Online at thelibertybeat.com.
[01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:15.000]  I'm Brian Hagan with your Liberty Beat for Friday, November 14th, 2014.
[01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:23.000]  Gold is trading around $1,163, silver around $15.71, and Bitcoin around $396.
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[01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:52.000]  In the news, The New York Times is reporting that President Obama next week
[01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:56.000]  plans to announce major changes to the immigration enforcement system.
[01:00:56.000 --> 01:01:00.000]  That means shielding up to 5 million undocumented immigrants from deportation
[01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:02.000]  while providing them with work permits.
[01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:06.000]  The paper, citing administration officials with direct knowledge of the plan,
[01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:10.000]  says a major change would allow parents of children who are legal residents
[01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:15.000]  to obtain legal work documents.
[01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:19.000]  Seeing in reports that President Obama is shifting U.S. policy on Syria
[01:01:19.000 --> 01:01:24.000]  as he now believes that ISIS will not be defeated without fighting them in Iraq and Syria,
[01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:27.000]  as well as removing President Bashar al-Assad.
[01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:31.000]  Senior U.S. government officials and diplomats tell CNN the President
[01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:35.000]  has asked his national security team to review the situation in Syria
[01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:38.000]  to determine if a change in policy is needed.
[01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:41.000]  There are other reports that the United States is being pressured by nations
[01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:47.000]  who are currently hosting Syrian refugees, including Turkey.
[01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:50.000]  A federal judge has refused to alter the force-feeding being done
[01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:54.000]  to hunger striker Abu Dhabi by jailers at the Guantanamo Bay prison.
[01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:58.000]  Judge Gladys Kessler said the practice lacked compassion and common sense,
[01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:01.000]  yet still sided with the government on the practice.
[01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:06.000]  Judge Kessler said Dhabi's attorneys failed to prove he had his constitutional rights violated.
[01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:11.000]  His attorneys with Human Rights Group, Reprieve, will be appealing the decision.
[01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:14.000]  They called on the American public to demand to see the force-feeding videotapes
[01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:18.000]  that the Obama administration has fought to keep private.
[01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:21.000]  The Liberty Beat, brought to you by eFoodsDirect,
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[01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:50.000]  This is the Liberty Beat for Friday, November 14, 2014.
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[01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:48.000]  This is the Liberty Beat for Friday, November 14, 2014.
[01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:52.000]  Okay, we are back. Randy Kelton, Steve Skidmore, Rural Radio,
[01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:57.000]  and we're going to Mr. Jeff in Maryland. Hello, Mr. Jeff.
[01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.000]  I understand Jeff's on point tonight.
[01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:05.000]  Good evening, to both of you. Stephen and Randy.
[01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:07.000]  Good evening, Jeff.
[01:04:07.000 --> 01:04:08.000]  Thank you.
[01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:15.000]  I understand you want to go back to revisit what we started the show off on.
[01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:23.000]  Well, some of it, yes, the affidavit and the council testifying.
[01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:30.000]  Okay. The affidavit, that would be a business records affidavit, correct?
[01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:31.000]  Yeah.
[01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:32.000]  Okay.
[01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:37.000]  And this is from the guy whose website is named Boyd Judgements.
[01:04:37.000 --> 01:04:40.000]  He should know this area.
[01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:45.000]  Okay. If we can't, Steve, I'm going to play with you this evening
[01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:49.000]  because Randy just can't contain himself.
[01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:51.000]  I understand.
[01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:59.000]  I resemble that remark. Turn your mic off, Randy.
[01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:03.000]  See if you can find that gremlin.
[01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:09.000]  Yeah. Let's just pretend for a moment, Steve, that you're the prosecuting attorney
[01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:16.000]  and in that case, and you've got a witness and you put the witness on the stand.
[01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:20.000]  What's the first thing you're going to do?
[01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:30.000]  First thing I'm going to do is I'm going to have them testify to what has been placed in the affidavit.
[01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.000]  No.
[01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:35.000]  Qualify the witness.
[01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:36.000]  Yes.
[01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:39.000]  Okay. Okay. Okay. Got you.
[01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:44.000]  You're going to qualify and identify the witness, right?
[01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:46.000]  Correct.
[01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:56.000]  Okay. Now, have you ever seen an affidavit where the witness is affirmatively identified?
[01:05:56.000 --> 01:06:00.000]  No.
[01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:04.000]  So is that not lacking foundation?
[01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:12.000]  It is, however. They can be a competent fact witness to what their company has in their records.
[01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:15.000]  What do you mean? Are they employed by that company?
[01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:24.000]  Well, I'd say that's neither here nor there, but what they cannot, they may be.
[01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:39.000]  Okay. Let's say they are employed by MERS or Bank of America or Wells Fargo or whoever, some clearinghouse for closure documents.
[01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:46.000]  The only thing they can testify to is what their company has in their database.
[01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:52.000]  They cannot testify to the validity of the origination of those documents.
[01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:58.000]  Hang on, Steve. I think Jeff is going to a step before we get to that part.
[01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:00.000]  Okay.
[01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:08.000]  The witness in an affidavit is never affirmatively identified. You don't know from whom they work.
[01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:13.000]  You don't know that they are who they say they are. You don't know if they're a custodian of records or not.
[01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:21.000]  There's nothing that is provided with the affidavit that shows squat as far as identifying the witness.
[01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:25.000]  Think back to your last traffic ticket.
[01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:32.000]  Mr. Police Officer, how long have you been a police officer? How much training do you have?
[01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:46.000]  The prosecutor goes through this whole routine of establishing who that witness is and why his testimony should be listened to.
[01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:50.000]  Right. Do you ever see that in an affidavit, Steve?
[01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:52.000]  Nope.
[01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:57.000]  So the affidavit in an affidavit itself is incompetent?
[01:07:57.000 --> 01:08:04.000]  Absolutely correct. I see quite often that they make a lot of claims, unsubstantiated claims.
[01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:08.000]  For example, I am the custodian of records.
[01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:09.000]  Who says?
[01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:12.000]  Thank you. You say.
[01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:18.000]  If you're a custodian of records and you're an agent for some entity, prove up agency.
[01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:19.000]  Who says?
[01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:23.000]  Exactly. Well, who says is the principal?
[01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:28.000]  Agency cannot be proven by the agent. It must be proven by the principal.
[01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:31.000]  Where is the principal?
[01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:35.000]  Not in court today.
[01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:44.000]  Our entire legal system is based upon who says and prove it.
[01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:46.000]  I'll agree to that.
[01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:56.000]  And there's a whole litany of facts that the affian has said that are unsupported.
[01:08:56.000 --> 01:09:02.000]  Ah, but your honor, this custodian of records...
[01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:04.000]  Objection.
[01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:06.000]  Well, okay.
[01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:09.000]  But let's say you don't object.
[01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:12.000]  This alleged...
[01:09:12.000 --> 01:09:20.000]  Okay, well, your honor, my client's custodian of records has sworn to this.
[01:09:20.000 --> 01:09:21.000]  Objection.
[01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:23.000]  Under the penalty of perjury.
[01:09:23.000 --> 01:09:25.000]  Objection.
[01:09:25.000 --> 01:09:26.000]  Exactly.
[01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:31.000]  The council is testifying for a witness, not an appearance.
[01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:35.000]  Here we go back to the testifying thing.
[01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:37.000]  Okay, so here's the other thing that I do.
[01:09:37.000 --> 01:09:44.000]  I go into court and I have three sets of three pages of documents.
[01:09:44.000 --> 01:09:52.000]  And each document is a complete set, contains the motion, the memorandum of law, and the affidavit.
[01:09:52.000 --> 01:09:55.000]  And I have three in case there happens to be three attorneys.
[01:09:55.000 --> 01:09:56.000]  Okay.
[01:09:56.000 --> 01:10:00.000]  And they're all a motion to disqualify council.
[01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:01.000]  Mm-hmm.
[01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:15.000]  Because council is testifying, council is going to be called as a witness because there's only one thing that a council can testify to in court while in the representative capacity, is fees and costs.
[01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:18.000]  Where do you get that?
[01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:20.000]  Because they have first-hand knowledge.
[01:10:20.000 --> 01:10:23.000]  And they're his fees and they're his costs.
[01:10:23.000 --> 01:10:24.000]  That's it.
[01:10:24.000 --> 01:10:25.000]  Gotcha.
[01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:32.000]  Otherwise, it is a violation of his code of professional conduct.
[01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:33.000]  Yep.
[01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:41.000]  Surely the judge does not intend to suborn his breach of his code of professional conduct.
[01:10:41.000 --> 01:10:45.000]  The lawyer is screwed.
[01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:47.000]  Well, that's the thing.
[01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:51.000]  I use screws VUS.
[01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:57.000]  The lawyer can't come into court and maintain that he didn't know he was acting improper.
[01:10:57.000 --> 01:10:58.000]  Mm-hmm.
[01:10:58.000 --> 01:11:07.000]  The private citizen may not claim ignorance of the law as a defense prosecution, public official, and the lawyer is a quasi-public official.
[01:11:07.000 --> 01:11:17.000]  Acting in his official capacity is held to a much higher standard if a public official violates the ruling of this court.
[01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:22.000]  He be sane, he may not be heard to say he knows not what he does.
[01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:32.000]  So if the lawyer comes in and improperly testifies in the place of a witness, he knows exactly what he's doing.
[01:11:32.000 --> 01:11:37.000]  Ignorance of the fact excuses while ignorance of the law excuses not.
[01:11:37.000 --> 01:11:40.000]  I believe that's a coke maxim.
[01:11:40.000 --> 01:11:41.000]  Right.
[01:11:41.000 --> 01:11:52.000]  Now, you can go and find via Google, if you like, an emotion to disqualify counsel because the counsel is going to be called as a witness.
[01:11:52.000 --> 01:11:54.000]  He is a testified.
[01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:57.000]  As soon as he stated a fact, he testified.
[01:11:57.000 --> 01:12:00.000]  Even if he objected to it, he's testified.
[01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:01.000]  Now he's a witness.
[01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:09.000]  Now you're going to disqualify him because you're going to call him as a witness for the defense or prosecution, whichever side you have to be on.
[01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:13.000]  If he's testifying, I have a right to cross-examine.
[01:12:13.000 --> 01:12:17.000]  But you're just telling the judge that doesn't move the judge.
[01:12:17.000 --> 01:12:20.000]  Motion to disqualify.
[01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:22.000]  And why?
[01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:24.000]  Yeah, you've got to move the court.
[01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:28.000]  That's right.
[01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:42.000]  For all those out there in legal reform land that say, don't file motions, file affidavits, affidavits do not move the court so they place no duty on the court.
[01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:43.000]  Thank you.
[01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:45.000]  That's right.
[01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:50.000]  They only stand in either a statement, a fact or in rebut.
[01:12:50.000 --> 01:12:51.000]  That's it.
[01:12:51.000 --> 01:12:53.000]  Yeah.
[01:12:53.000 --> 01:12:54.000]  So.
[01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:55.000]  Interesting.
[01:12:55.000 --> 01:12:56.000]  Good point.
[01:12:56.000 --> 01:13:01.000]  I thought the judge was going to swallow his tongue when I presented him with that.
[01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:04.000]  Oh, bad.
[01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:09.000]  Oh, my God, we've got one that can see.
[01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:12.000]  Anyway, that's what I had to contribute.
[01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:14.000]  Well, thank you.
[01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:15.000]  You're welcome.
[01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:17.000]  That's a valuable contribution.
[01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:24.000]  Were you familiar with this bankruptcy statute we read at the beginning of the show?
[01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:26.000]  No.
[01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:28.000]  No, I'm not.
[01:13:28.000 --> 01:13:33.000]  That was 11 USC 524A2.
[01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:44.000]  We've been getting the debt discharged, but then the bank comes back and still tries to enforce the security instrument.
[01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:52.000]  And this looks like every time a lawyer did that, he knew it was improper.
[01:13:52.000 --> 01:13:54.000]  I don't know.
[01:13:54.000 --> 01:13:56.000]  Is there a case on that?
[01:13:56.000 --> 01:14:00.000]  Do you have any case law on this?
[01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:05.000]  I'll get on Lexis or Westlaw and see what I can find.
[01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:09.000]  I'd like to see the judge's order on that one.
[01:14:09.000 --> 01:14:23.000]  The discharge in a case under this title voids any judgment at any time obtained to the extent the judgment is a determination of the personal liability of the debtor.
[01:14:23.000 --> 01:14:29.000]  With respect to any debt discharged under sections, it lists all the sections.
[01:14:29.000 --> 01:14:37.000]  The claim of the note, but I don't see that it would necessarily absolve them of the claim of the lien instrument.
[01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:42.000]  That's what the lien instrument is.
[01:14:42.000 --> 01:14:46.000]  Let's go to subsection A2.
[01:14:46.000 --> 01:15:06.000]  Operates as an injunction against the commencement or continuation of an action, the employment of a process, or an act to collect, recover, or offset any such debt as personal liability of the debtor.
[01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:14.000]  Whether or not the discharge of such debt is waived.
[01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:19.000]  I would want to see case law on that in a foreclosure situation.
[01:15:19.000 --> 01:15:32.000]  Without that, the president basically says that no law means what it says on its face.
[01:15:32.000 --> 01:15:38.000]  It only means what the highest court of competent jurisdiction has said that it means.
[01:15:38.000 --> 01:15:40.000]  I want to see case law on that.
[01:15:40.000 --> 01:15:47.000]  Unless it is an issue of first impression, that's where you establish the precedence.
[01:15:47.000 --> 01:15:50.000]  Right.
[01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:57.000]  I'm sure as long as Title XI has been around, there's got to be established case law on this.
[01:15:57.000 --> 01:16:05.000]  Yes. It might have been from 1956.
[01:16:05.000 --> 01:16:12.000]  If that's the latest ruling on it, there's got to be case law out there somewhere.
[01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:20.000]  If the case law hasn't been overruled, then it's still valid.
[01:16:20.000 --> 01:16:27.000]  If it's never been brought up, which seems almost highly unlikely, I'd like to see case law on that
[01:16:27.000 --> 01:16:31.000]  and see what the judge's ruling is and what the reasoning is.
[01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:41.000]  One thing that I do appreciate about Lexis is it's automatically jeopardized.
[01:16:41.000 --> 01:16:45.000]  I hear the music in the background. Jeff, would you like to hang on?
[01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:46.000]  Yes.
[01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:52.000]  Okay. We'll see you on the other side of the break. 512-646-1984 will put you in line behind
[01:16:52.000 --> 01:16:55.000]  Jeff Merlin and Mike in Connecticut. We see you there.
[01:16:55.000 --> 01:17:00.000]  You're listening to Rural Law Radio on Friday night. Stay tuned. We'll be right.
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[01:19:25.000 --> 01:19:28.000]  Well...
[01:19:31.000 --> 01:19:36.000]  You ain't gonna fool me with that same old trick again.
[01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:41.000]  I was blindsided, but now I can see your plan.
[01:19:41.000 --> 01:19:46.000]  You put the fear in my pocket, took the money from my hand.
[01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:51.000]  Ain't gonna fool me with that same old trick again.
[01:19:51.000 --> 01:19:56.000]  Not gonna fool me with that same old trick again.
[01:19:56.000 --> 01:20:03.000]  Thank you, Jerry Stevens, Deborah Stevens, and Three Shoes Posse for all that good bumper music in the background.
[01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:11.000]  When we left, we were speaking with Jeff in Maryland, and I have the understanding that Randy is reading Case Law.
[01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:15.000]  I sure hope he's got his spectacles on.
[01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:22.000]  Oh, I wanted to revisit something with you guys several weeks back, if I may.
[01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:24.000]  Absolutely.
[01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:32.000]  I went to a city court pooling and servicing agreement, and one of the requirements in the pooling and servicing agreement
[01:20:32.000 --> 01:20:41.000]  is that either the trustee for the trust or the custodian of records is to use proprietary software
[01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:52.000]  to maintain the mortgage file, which is to contain both the original de-trustee mortgage and the original note,
[01:20:52.000 --> 01:21:00.000]  and it's supposed to show where, within a fire-resistant facility, that file is stored.
[01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:05.000]  Oh, boy.
[01:21:05.000 --> 01:21:08.000]  Doesn't that beg the question of where the heck is the original?
[01:21:08.000 --> 01:21:10.000]  Yes, it does.
[01:21:10.000 --> 01:21:11.000]  No, thanks.
[01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:12.000]  Okay.
[01:21:12.000 --> 01:21:13.000]  Here's the other thing.
[01:21:13.000 --> 01:21:19.000]  Oh, yes, in a complete chain of title.
[01:21:19.000 --> 01:21:20.000]  Okay.
[01:21:20.000 --> 01:21:21.000]  On everything.
[01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:30.000]  That clause in the PSA seems to throw a glitch in the lost note claim.
[01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:31.000]  Yeah.
[01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:32.000]  Right.
[01:21:32.000 --> 01:21:34.000]  Well, here's the other thing for you.
[01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:42.000]  It's also required of the servicer that, in the event that a note does go into default,
[01:21:42.000 --> 01:21:46.000]  the servicer is required to make the principal payments.
[01:21:46.000 --> 01:21:47.000]  Right.
[01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:48.000]  Okay.
[01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:53.000]  So wouldn't it behoove the servicer...
[01:21:53.000 --> 01:21:55.000]  Wait a second, Jeff.
[01:21:55.000 --> 01:21:59.000]  When you say make the principal payments, you're not talking about the...
[01:21:59.000 --> 01:22:01.000]  There's two principles here.
[01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:06.000]  You have a principal party or you have a principal payment without interest.
[01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:07.000]  Principal payment...
[01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:09.000]  It is the latter of the two.
[01:22:09.000 --> 01:22:10.000]  Pay the principal.
[01:22:10.000 --> 01:22:11.000]  Right.
[01:22:11.000 --> 01:22:12.000]  Okay.
[01:22:12.000 --> 01:22:13.000]  Not the interest, but the principal.
[01:22:13.000 --> 01:22:14.000]  Correct.
[01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:15.000]  Okay.
[01:22:15.000 --> 01:22:22.000]  So wouldn't it serve the servicer to dangle a loan modification in front of you to get
[01:22:22.000 --> 01:22:27.000]  you to pay them some money to offset what they had to pay in the form of principal payments
[01:22:27.000 --> 01:22:30.000]  while they're busy dual-tracking you for foreclosure?
[01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:31.000]  Absolutely.
[01:22:31.000 --> 01:22:37.000]  And let me bring a little more information on that subject.
[01:22:37.000 --> 01:22:50.000]  A loan modification, any kind of fee, like a filing fee, that is paid to the servicer
[01:22:50.000 --> 01:22:52.000]  is kept by the servicer.
[01:22:52.000 --> 01:22:57.000]  That's going to sound crazy because most people think that when you file something, you have
[01:22:57.000 --> 01:23:05.000]  to pay it, not in the case of filing a loan modification application.
[01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:14.000]  The servicer gets paid by the federal government every time they file the application.
[01:23:14.000 --> 01:23:23.000]  I have spoken with people in the past who have been through 9, 10, up to 12 times they had
[01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:30.240]  to submit documents because they didn't fill out line B, because they didn't receive page
[01:23:30.240 --> 01:23:39.000]  4, because you didn't put the right information on line 14 on page 6.
[01:23:39.000 --> 01:23:40.000]  Doesn't matter.
[01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:45.000]  They're going to get you to do it again and again and again and again because they get
[01:23:45.000 --> 01:23:54.000]  paid and they get paid handsomely every time they file it without regard to the case, without
[01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:57.000]  regard to the subject property.
[01:23:57.000 --> 01:24:00.000]  Okay, let's break this down.
[01:24:00.000 --> 01:24:10.000]  Let's say the federal government was insightful enough to say, we'll pay $7,500 for each application
[01:24:10.000 --> 01:24:21.000]  you submit for modification through the HMP program, but you can only get paid for one
[01:24:21.000 --> 01:24:23.000]  per subject property.
[01:24:23.000 --> 01:24:29.000]  How many applications do you think people would have to fill out then, Jeff?
[01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:30.000]  One.
[01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:40.000]  One, because they know they're not going to get paid for two or five or 12.
[01:24:40.000 --> 01:24:41.000]  Exactly.
[01:24:41.000 --> 01:24:42.000]  Yeah.
[01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:49.000]  But there's tremendous amount of information contained in the pooling and servicing agreement.
[01:24:49.000 --> 01:24:54.000]  There's one particular remick and you might want to pull those pooling and servicing agreements
[01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:57.000]  for the cases that you have your nose into.
[01:24:57.000 --> 01:24:59.000]  We usually do.
[01:24:59.000 --> 01:25:05.000]  Let's see what it says because it's incredible.
[01:25:05.000 --> 01:25:06.000]  Yeah.
[01:25:06.000 --> 01:25:17.000]  I don't want to say too much, but I've read through several pooling and servicing agreements.
[01:25:17.000 --> 01:25:24.000]  There are some specific provisions, several specific provisions.
[01:25:24.000 --> 01:25:31.400]  One that is most commonly violated is that they didn't get the mortgage-backed security
[01:25:31.400 --> 01:25:34.000]  in the pool in a timely manner.
[01:25:34.000 --> 01:25:35.000]  Oh, yeah.
[01:25:35.000 --> 01:25:36.320]  That's true, too.
[01:25:36.320 --> 01:25:44.680]  There are thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands of mortgage-backed securities
[01:25:44.680 --> 01:25:53.920]  that somehow, even against the terms of statute, even against the terms of the pooling and
[01:25:53.920 --> 01:26:02.000]  servicing agreement, somehow make it into a securities pool or a remick after the closing
[01:26:02.000 --> 01:26:03.000]  date.
[01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:06.000]  Did they?
[01:26:06.000 --> 01:26:13.320]  Well, from the investigations that I've seen, yes.
[01:26:13.320 --> 01:26:18.680]  They made it into the pool, but they didn't make it in time.
[01:26:18.680 --> 01:26:20.920]  That means that it's not in the pool.
[01:26:20.920 --> 01:26:23.920]  I was going to say, did they?
[01:26:23.920 --> 01:26:24.920]  Yeah.
[01:26:24.920 --> 01:26:27.920]  Did they ever get in there?
[01:26:27.920 --> 01:26:30.920]  No, it didn't.
[01:26:30.920 --> 01:26:34.800]  They just have weight in taking up space.
[01:26:34.800 --> 01:26:35.800]  The latter.
[01:26:35.800 --> 01:26:36.800]  Yeah.
[01:26:36.800 --> 01:26:44.160]  If it didn't, okay, let's equate this with filing an appeal bond.
[01:26:44.160 --> 01:26:49.920]  If you file your appeal bond two days too late, did you file your appeal bond?
[01:26:49.920 --> 01:26:50.920]  No.
[01:26:50.920 --> 01:26:51.920]  No.
[01:26:51.920 --> 01:26:55.920]  In fact, your case was probably dismissed.
[01:26:55.920 --> 01:26:56.920]  Yeah.
[01:26:56.920 --> 01:26:57.920]  Yeah.
[01:26:57.920 --> 01:27:08.520]  So, if a mortgage-backed security does not make it into the pool in a timely manner, does
[01:27:08.520 --> 01:27:16.400]  the investor have the authority to enforce his interest in something that is not in the
[01:27:16.400 --> 01:27:17.400]  pool?
[01:27:17.400 --> 01:27:18.400]  No, he doesn't.
[01:27:18.400 --> 01:27:27.400]  Well, it's usually not the investors who file for foreclosure anyway.
[01:27:27.400 --> 01:27:34.400]  I was going to say, is there any authority given to the investor to enforce it?
[01:27:34.400 --> 01:27:35.400]  No.
[01:27:35.400 --> 01:27:36.400]  There is.
[01:27:36.400 --> 01:27:44.600]  That means that the servicer is acting illegally because it's always the servicer who hires
[01:27:44.600 --> 01:27:49.240]  the attorneys to file the foreclosure.
[01:27:49.240 --> 01:28:00.320]  But if due to the fact that the mortgage-backed security as an operation of law, both contractual
[01:28:00.320 --> 01:28:12.600]  and statutory, is technically not in the pool, then nobody, not the investor, not the servicer
[01:28:12.600 --> 01:28:23.920]  claiming to be acting as an agent for collection for the party entitled to receive payments,
[01:28:23.920 --> 01:28:28.680]  there's another issue, are they entitled to receive payments on something that's not
[01:28:28.680 --> 01:28:30.040]  in the pool?
[01:28:30.040 --> 01:28:31.040]  I would think not.
[01:28:31.040 --> 01:28:35.680]  Yeah, it does give rise to a lot of questions, doesn't it?
[01:28:35.680 --> 01:28:36.680]  It absolutely does.
[01:28:36.680 --> 01:28:47.840]  And it all goes to agency standing and capacity based on the compliance with the rules governing
[01:28:47.840 --> 01:28:53.080]  the trust, governing the securities trust, the remic, real estate mortgage investment
[01:28:53.080 --> 01:28:54.080]  conduit.
[01:28:54.080 --> 01:28:55.080]  Right.
[01:28:55.080 --> 01:28:58.800]  Gee, didn't you open a can of worms?
[01:28:58.800 --> 01:28:59.800]  Well.
[01:28:59.800 --> 01:29:05.360]  Well, you're good at that, though, that's one of the things I love about you, Jeff.
[01:29:05.360 --> 01:29:09.800]  You always bring something valuable to the airwaves, and I appreciate that.
[01:29:09.800 --> 01:29:10.800]  Thank you.
[01:29:10.800 --> 01:29:11.800]  All right.
[01:29:11.800 --> 01:29:12.800]  All right, yeah.
[01:29:12.800 --> 01:29:16.600]  Okay, Jeff, I got you case law.
[01:29:16.600 --> 01:29:20.600]  Randy is, it's alive!
[01:29:20.600 --> 01:29:21.600]  Lots of case law.
[01:29:21.600 --> 01:29:24.600]  Can you email it to me, Randy?
[01:29:24.600 --> 01:29:25.600]  Do what?
[01:29:25.600 --> 01:29:27.200]  Can you email it to me?
[01:29:27.200 --> 01:29:28.200]  Yes, I can.
[01:29:28.200 --> 01:29:37.720]  There's a particular, a very interesting article here, where what they're saying is, is that
[01:29:37.720 --> 01:29:45.360]  this statute creates a preemption issue, because it voids state judges.
[01:29:45.360 --> 01:29:51.440]  Let's stop right there, Randy, folks, 512-646-1984, Jeff and Marilyn, please hang on.
[01:29:51.440 --> 01:29:52.440]  We'll be right back.
[01:29:52.440 --> 01:30:02.440]  You're listening to Rule Law Radio.
[01:30:02.440 --> 01:30:07.440]  Trash trucks across California are rumbling down city streets using clean fuel made from
[01:30:07.440 --> 01:30:12.760]  a dirty source, garbage, brilliant innovation, or feel-good environmental lunacy.
[01:30:12.760 --> 01:30:17.320]  I'm Dr. Catherine Albrecht, and I'll be back in just a moment with more.
[01:30:17.320 --> 01:30:18.920]  Privacy is under attack.
[01:30:18.920 --> 01:30:23.360]  When you give up data about yourself, you'll never get it back again, and once your privacy
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[01:30:27.320 --> 01:30:32.240]  So protect your rights, say no to surveillance, and keep your information to yourself.
[01:30:32.240 --> 01:30:35.080]  Privacy, it's worth hanging on to.
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[01:30:51.200 --> 01:30:55.640]  It's a renewable resource that can be produced from landfills, like the one in Altamont,
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[01:31:00.800 --> 01:31:04.080]  to be converted into liquefied natural gas.
[01:31:04.080 --> 01:31:08.880]  The 15,000 gallons produced each day are then used to fuel garbage trucks.
[01:31:08.880 --> 01:31:13.760]  Critics note that liquefying and transporting LNG takes a lot of energy in itself, which
[01:31:13.760 --> 01:31:18.480]  reduces the overall environmental benefit, though the fuel may still be better than traditional
[01:31:18.480 --> 01:31:20.120]  fuels like oil or coal.
[01:31:20.120 --> 01:31:24.600]  But in any case, fueling garbage trucks with garbage is a spiffy idea.
[01:31:24.600 --> 01:31:26.400]  I'm Dr. Catherine Albrecht.
[01:31:26.400 --> 01:31:30.760]  More news and information at CatherineAlbrecht.com.
[01:31:30.760 --> 01:31:36.160]  This is Building 7, a 47-story skyscraper that fell on the afternoon of September 11.
[01:31:36.160 --> 01:31:38.440]  The government says that fire brought it down.
[01:31:38.440 --> 01:31:43.200]  However, 1,500 architects and engineers have concluded it was a controlled demolition.
[01:31:43.200 --> 01:31:47.200]  Over 6,000 of my fellow service members have given their lives, and thousands of my fellow
[01:31:47.200 --> 01:31:48.640]  force responders have died.
[01:31:48.640 --> 01:31:50.120]  I'm not a conspiracy theorist.
[01:31:50.120 --> 01:31:51.120]  I'm a structural engineer.
[01:31:51.120 --> 01:31:52.480]  I'm a New York City correction officer.
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[01:33:33.160 --> 01:33:48.520]  I just thought I'd pull a quick one on Randy because I told him before we came in that I'd
[01:33:48.520 --> 01:33:52.280]  bring us in and segue back to him.
[01:33:52.280 --> 01:33:54.600]  Let's reintroduce Jeff and Marilyn Jeff.
[01:33:54.600 --> 01:33:56.600]  You still with us?
[01:33:56.600 --> 01:33:57.600]  Yes.
[01:33:57.600 --> 01:33:58.600]  Yes.
[01:33:58.600 --> 01:33:59.600]  There you are.
[01:33:59.600 --> 01:34:05.680]  Randy read something from an article that he alluded to as we were going out on break.
[01:34:05.680 --> 01:34:10.880]  And this is, man, this is good.
[01:34:10.880 --> 01:34:11.880]  Randy.
[01:34:11.880 --> 01:34:22.520]  This is the title of it is The Grand Cropsey Hedgeman, Section 524A and its effect on state
[01:34:22.520 --> 01:34:24.320]  and federal comity.
[01:34:24.320 --> 01:34:26.480]  Who is the author?
[01:34:26.480 --> 01:34:30.320]  Benjamin Margulis.
[01:34:30.320 --> 01:34:35.160]  At first blush, 524A of Title XI is unproblematic.
[01:34:35.160 --> 01:34:42.480]  It grants discharge debtors two powerful automatic defenses in the form of statutory injunction
[01:34:42.480 --> 01:34:45.080]  and statutory avoidance provisions.
[01:34:45.080 --> 01:34:51.120]  And so doing the section protects debtors against post discharge suits filed by unscrupulous
[01:34:51.120 --> 01:34:57.000]  creditors in an attempt to collect the already discharged debts.
[01:34:57.000 --> 01:35:02.840]  However, further consideration reveals the worst fact section 524A seemingly allows federal
[01:35:02.840 --> 01:35:09.360]  courts to avoid state judgments unilaterally, thus exacerbating attention between federal
[01:35:09.360 --> 01:35:15.160]  and state courts that has existed for generations.
[01:35:15.160 --> 01:35:27.560]  And the writer goes on to use it as an example, a guy who molested his nephew, I believe, and
[01:35:27.560 --> 01:35:28.800]  was prosecuted.
[01:35:28.800 --> 01:35:36.440]  And then after the prosecution, he filed for bankruptcy and named the molested child as
[01:35:36.440 --> 01:35:39.280]  a creditor.
[01:35:39.280 --> 01:35:45.560]  Got a discharge in the bankruptcy when the child turned 18.
[01:35:45.560 --> 01:35:56.360]  He sued the uncle for the molestation and got a state judgment.
[01:35:56.360 --> 01:36:01.120]  The uncle went to the bankruptcy court and the bankruptcy court told the state, screw
[01:36:01.120 --> 01:36:05.000]  you guys, you can't touch him.
[01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:11.720]  So he's using this as an example of a worst case scenario.
[01:36:11.720 --> 01:36:21.520]  Although his uncle touched him, let's throw that in there.
[01:36:21.520 --> 01:36:34.280]  The point is, the guy's arguing that 524A is absolutely enforced, that the state can't
[01:36:34.280 --> 01:36:36.760]  do anything about it.
[01:36:36.760 --> 01:36:46.480]  Everything in here indicates that 524A stops all collection procedures, period.
[01:36:46.480 --> 01:36:54.600]  And A2, well specifically A2.
[01:36:54.600 --> 01:36:57.760]  When was the article written, Andy?
[01:36:57.760 --> 01:36:58.760]  Don't have a date.
[01:36:58.760 --> 01:37:01.760]  Let me go out of the bottom to see if I can find it.
[01:37:01.760 --> 01:37:14.000]  This is a PDF, it's a little harder to see, I don't have a date.
[01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:24.160]  I've got some case law here, I'm seeing one 2008, so it's referencing relatively recent
[01:37:24.160 --> 01:37:28.720]  case law.
[01:37:28.720 --> 01:37:35.960]  So this may be good that so far 2008's the latest I see.
[01:37:35.960 --> 01:37:39.960]  If it's 2009, it is good.
[01:37:39.960 --> 01:37:52.560]  As goes to foreclosure, this seems to affect statutory estoppel.
[01:37:52.560 --> 01:37:54.560]  Here I see a 2009 here.
[01:37:54.560 --> 01:38:03.960]  One of the things that troubles me is that if this were a Chapter 7 bankruptcy and you
[01:38:03.960 --> 01:38:15.960]  did not affirm the mortgage, then the property basically becomes the property of the trustee.
[01:38:15.960 --> 01:38:19.520]  What means affirm the mortgage?
[01:38:19.520 --> 01:38:25.880]  Well, if you declare bankruptcy, it's Chapter 7 bankruptcy, you've got a whole litany of
[01:38:25.880 --> 01:38:34.120]  credit cards, all right, and you have to declare your house and it's mortgage.
[01:38:34.120 --> 01:38:40.280]  So you affirm the mortgage in order to remove the property, the real property, from the
[01:38:40.280 --> 01:38:49.360]  bankruptcy, okay, so the only thing that's left as far as debt is concerned is the credit
[01:38:49.360 --> 01:38:50.360]  cards.
[01:38:50.360 --> 01:38:57.480]  You know, wait a minute, the whole point of the bankruptcy is you do not want the mortgage
[01:38:57.480 --> 01:38:59.120]  removed from the bankruptcy.
[01:38:59.120 --> 01:39:06.640]  Well, you're talking only in terms of where it's a foreclosure situation, you affirm the
[01:39:06.640 --> 01:39:09.560]  mortgage if you're current.
[01:39:09.560 --> 01:39:14.480]  Define affirm in that context, if possible.
[01:39:14.480 --> 01:39:18.880]  Yeah, I'm paying it as current and I'm going to continue paying it.
[01:39:18.880 --> 01:39:30.320]  Oh, what we're suggesting people do is claim that this is a debt that is unsecured and
[01:39:30.320 --> 01:39:32.320]  you want it discharged.
[01:39:32.320 --> 01:39:33.320]  Right.
[01:39:33.320 --> 01:39:37.560]  You still have to list in your assets the house.
[01:39:37.560 --> 01:39:38.560]  Yeah.
[01:39:38.560 --> 01:39:45.280]  Okay, and that's a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, all your property, real and personal, becomes
[01:39:45.280 --> 01:39:47.280]  a property of the trustee.
[01:39:47.280 --> 01:39:53.280]  Right, he's right, he's absolutely right.
[01:39:53.280 --> 01:39:55.280]  That's why the trustee is there.
[01:39:55.280 --> 01:40:01.080]  So that's the question, who are they foreclosing against, the borrower or the trustee?
[01:40:01.080 --> 01:40:10.200]  The trustee acts as a neutral and has control of possession of everything that is claimed
[01:40:10.200 --> 01:40:13.040]  in the case.
[01:40:13.040 --> 01:40:23.880]  This is similar to, not like, well, it is like a similar to putting, let's say you're
[01:40:23.880 --> 01:40:30.400]  appealing district court case, you're going to your state court of appeals, you're going
[01:40:30.400 --> 01:40:38.200]  to have to either file, you're going to have to file a supercidious bond, but there's several
[01:40:38.200 --> 01:40:40.880]  ways that you can do that.
[01:40:40.880 --> 01:40:51.520]  But I'm starting to lose track of my point when the similarity, I've lost it.
[01:40:51.520 --> 01:40:58.640]  Okay, we're talking about the trustee holding, he only holds legal title for his limited
[01:40:58.640 --> 01:41:03.720]  purpose of determining disposition.
[01:41:03.720 --> 01:41:05.880]  Correct, yes.
[01:41:05.880 --> 01:41:10.840]  Who is entitled to possess that?
[01:41:10.840 --> 01:41:19.080]  The trustee holds that, like the court does, when you file your bond, you may be required
[01:41:19.080 --> 01:41:22.680]  to make monthly payments to the court registry.
[01:41:22.680 --> 01:41:29.160]  It is very similar to that in that the trustee is entrusted with all of the possessions that
[01:41:29.160 --> 01:41:36.440]  are to be discharged or not, and to see that they're distributed to the appropriate party
[01:41:36.440 --> 01:41:40.520]  upon the finality of the BK case.
[01:41:40.520 --> 01:41:43.760]  Yes, so he doesn't actually own anything.
[01:41:43.760 --> 01:41:45.680]  The trustee does not, no.
[01:41:45.680 --> 01:41:49.720]  He merely holds legal title under restricted contract.
[01:41:49.720 --> 01:41:53.520]  Yes, at that point, nobody owns anything.
[01:41:53.520 --> 01:41:56.800]  That's why the trustee holds everything until...
[01:41:56.800 --> 01:42:09.840]  The trustee holds legal title, the borrower holds warranty deed, until a different deed
[01:42:09.840 --> 01:42:13.120]  is filed in it.
[01:42:13.120 --> 01:42:16.080]  So ownership stays...
[01:42:16.080 --> 01:42:21.280]  But still, the trustee is a neutral.
[01:42:21.280 --> 01:42:26.360]  Okay, let's say you're going to bet on a horse.
[01:42:26.360 --> 01:42:32.080]  You're going to take your money to a neutral party.
[01:42:32.080 --> 01:42:36.880]  If your horse wins, the neutral party gives you your money back plus a bunch of other
[01:42:36.880 --> 01:42:37.880]  people's money.
[01:42:37.880 --> 01:42:38.880]  Okay, well...
[01:42:38.880 --> 01:42:47.440]  If you lose the bookie or the trustee, gives it to the other guys.
[01:42:47.440 --> 01:42:52.840]  Okay, Jeff, I'm sure you had a point here, and I think we've missed it.
[01:42:52.840 --> 01:43:01.280]  Well, the point was, in the case of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, which a lot of people are doing
[01:43:01.280 --> 01:43:08.120]  instead of a 13, because they think that it's their best avenue, and I question that one.
[01:43:08.120 --> 01:43:11.800]  Yeah, a 7 you can't back out of, a 13 you can.
[01:43:11.800 --> 01:43:18.120]  If they discharge the debt, who is the bank foreclosing against, the trustee or the borrower?
[01:43:18.120 --> 01:43:26.960]  You know, the whole point here is, is the bank can no longer foreclose, period.
[01:43:26.960 --> 01:43:29.120]  That's the point of 524.
[01:43:29.120 --> 01:43:30.120]  They are a stopped.
[01:43:30.120 --> 01:43:32.680]  You got case law that says that?
[01:43:32.680 --> 01:43:34.520]  Yeah, that's what this is.
[01:43:34.520 --> 01:43:35.520]  That's what...
[01:43:35.520 --> 01:43:36.520]  Let me send you...
[01:43:36.520 --> 01:43:42.520]  I'll send you this article, and they cite lots of case law, and they seem to be against
[01:43:42.520 --> 01:43:43.520]  it.
[01:43:43.520 --> 01:43:44.520]  They're complaining about it.
[01:43:44.520 --> 01:43:45.520]  Hang on.
[01:43:45.520 --> 01:43:46.520]  We'll pick this up on the other side.
[01:43:46.520 --> 01:43:49.600]  I'm Steve Skigmore, we're over on radio.
[01:43:49.600 --> 01:43:54.040]  I call it number 512-646-1984.
[01:43:54.040 --> 01:43:55.040]  Give us a call.
[01:43:55.040 --> 01:43:56.040]  Get in line.
[01:43:56.040 --> 01:43:57.040]  It's getting close to the end.
[01:43:57.040 --> 01:44:00.360]  We'll be right back.
[01:44:00.360 --> 01:44:03.880]  You feel tired when talking about important topics like money and politics?
[01:44:03.880 --> 01:44:04.880]  Sorry.
[01:44:04.880 --> 01:44:07.600]  Are you confused by words like the Constitution or the Federal Reserve?
[01:44:07.600 --> 01:44:08.600]  What?
[01:44:08.600 --> 01:44:12.560]  If so, you may be diagnosed with the deadliest disease known today, stupidity.
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[01:46:26.640 --> 01:46:48.640]  Okay, we are back, Randy Kelton, Steve Skidmore with our radio, we're talking to Jeff from
[01:46:48.640 --> 01:46:49.640]  Maryland.
[01:46:49.640 --> 01:46:56.120]  And Jeff, I do have this article, and there was a whole bunch of it, and the article itself
[01:46:56.120 --> 01:46:59.640]  said there was a tremendous amount of case law on this.
[01:46:59.640 --> 01:47:07.040]  And from reading that article, I get the impression that there is a lot of contention about the
[01:47:07.040 --> 01:47:08.040]  524.
[01:47:08.040 --> 01:47:09.040]  Right.
[01:47:09.040 --> 01:47:10.040]  I would imagine.
[01:47:10.040 --> 01:47:16.440]  But as I read it, it appears to go to statutory stop-all.
[01:47:16.440 --> 01:47:22.520]  And the states really don't like it because the feds are stepping on their statutory
[01:47:22.520 --> 01:47:32.720]  toes, but... Well, I sent you a reminder email so that you could hit reply and attach
[01:47:32.720 --> 01:47:35.520]  all that stuff to it and send it back to me.
[01:47:35.520 --> 01:47:37.520]  Okay, I will do that.
[01:47:37.520 --> 01:47:46.640]  And when I read this and they're complaining about federal preemption, when I go to my legal
[01:47:46.640 --> 01:47:52.840]  reform side, I kind of agree.
[01:47:52.840 --> 01:48:01.920]  The feds are just stepping right square in the middle of a state-issued deed of trust.
[01:48:01.920 --> 01:48:10.960]  And telling the state, we don't care what you say, if we say it's garbage, it's garbage.
[01:48:10.960 --> 01:48:13.480]  Puts us in a kind of a conundrum, Jeff.
[01:48:13.480 --> 01:48:16.760]  Remember what the Supreme Court does?
[01:48:16.760 --> 01:48:23.480]  Yeah, we don't want the feds preempting the state, but here it works in our favor.
[01:48:23.480 --> 01:48:26.480]  Yeah, and wah-wah-wah-wah-wah.
[01:48:26.480 --> 01:48:27.480]  Exactly.
[01:48:27.480 --> 01:48:35.080]  Well, okay, I have to say, I have a concern here.
[01:48:35.080 --> 01:48:41.480]  I have this nagging thing that says, what have we missed?
[01:48:41.480 --> 01:48:53.360]  If this law is so strong as it appears to be on the verbiage of the statute, how is it
[01:48:53.360 --> 01:48:59.480]  that these people are foreclosing after the debt has been discharged and the courts are
[01:48:59.480 --> 01:49:02.240]  approving it?
[01:49:02.240 --> 01:49:04.320]  What court is approving it?
[01:49:04.320 --> 01:49:12.880]  We have, these are federal courts, because they always remove to the fed, and even after
[01:49:12.880 --> 01:49:21.520]  foreclosure, we've got Chris in Pennsylvania, we've got someone in Illinois and Wisconsin
[01:49:21.520 --> 01:49:25.880]  where they've discharged the debt, and the banks are coming back and still trying to
[01:49:25.880 --> 01:49:30.360]  foreclose because the deed of trust is still in effect.
[01:49:30.360 --> 01:49:31.360]  Yep.
[01:49:31.360 --> 01:49:34.480]  The law of 24 is just strong, what's going on here?
[01:49:34.480 --> 01:49:38.560]  I don't know, I want to read it.
[01:49:38.560 --> 01:49:46.160]  Yeah, so, and you're credit about asking for the case law, I want to see the case law too,
[01:49:46.160 --> 01:49:57.000]  because if these federal banks, these national associations, are still foreclosing, we either
[01:49:57.000 --> 01:50:01.520]  we've missed something or defense attorneys have missed something.
[01:50:01.520 --> 01:50:09.080]  Well, I would be more inclined to think that the defense attorneys have.
[01:50:09.080 --> 01:50:12.520]  I would too, but I sure want this sorted out.
[01:50:12.520 --> 01:50:21.640]  If this stands up to scrutiny, then we have some great suits to go back against some lawyers
[01:50:21.640 --> 01:50:30.920]  who came into court and claimed to be foreclosing on a deed of trust when they knew the underlying
[01:50:30.920 --> 01:50:33.320]  debt was discharged in bankruptcy.
[01:50:33.320 --> 01:50:38.320]  And if people listen, people who listen to the show all the time will remember, we talked
[01:50:38.320 --> 01:50:47.200]  about this in the past, how on earth can they purport to exercise the grant in the deed
[01:50:47.200 --> 01:50:52.680]  of trust once the underlying debt has been discharged?
[01:50:52.680 --> 01:51:00.520]  Well, I just, if this proves to be true, I think Handel said it best, hallelujah, hallelujah.
[01:51:00.520 --> 01:51:08.360]  So, shouldn't that tell me please, thank you Randy, and I will definitely do that.
[01:51:08.360 --> 01:51:10.240]  Your other callers get in.
[01:51:10.240 --> 01:51:11.240]  Thank you Jeff.
[01:51:11.240 --> 01:51:12.240]  You're welcome.
[01:51:12.240 --> 01:51:13.240]  Bye bye.
[01:51:13.240 --> 01:51:17.760]  Okay, now we're going to Mike in Connecticut.
[01:51:17.760 --> 01:51:19.760]  Hello Mike.
[01:51:19.760 --> 01:51:22.520]  Hey Randy, how are you?
[01:51:22.520 --> 01:51:23.520]  I am good.
[01:51:23.520 --> 01:51:25.240]  What do you have for us tonight?
[01:51:25.240 --> 01:51:29.720]  Okay, I got four questions.
[01:51:29.720 --> 01:51:37.720]  Number one, the girl that got her ticket, four charges total was $498.
[01:51:37.720 --> 01:51:39.920]  She went, she had a magistrate trial.
[01:51:39.920 --> 01:51:43.480]  You know, but not guilty at a trial.
[01:51:43.480 --> 01:51:47.760]  Whoa, hold on, hold on, that is an interesting statement.
[01:51:47.760 --> 01:51:49.760]  A magistrate trial.
[01:51:49.760 --> 01:51:58.440]  Yeah, it's like an administrative hearing, it's not a court of record.
[01:51:58.440 --> 01:52:05.000]  Okay, can you explain how the lower courts work in Connecticut?
[01:52:05.000 --> 01:52:13.080]  Us in Texas, we have judges and we have magistrates.
[01:52:13.080 --> 01:52:17.040]  All judges are magistrates.
[01:52:17.040 --> 01:52:23.640]  The only thing a magistrate does in Texas is he can marry people, that's so he can make
[01:52:23.640 --> 01:52:29.440]  a few extra bucks, and if you ever see a judge performing a marriage, he doesn't do that as
[01:52:29.440 --> 01:52:32.840]  a judge, he does it as a magistrate.
[01:52:32.840 --> 01:52:41.120]  He can hold, he can marry people, hold an examining trial and set bail, that's it.
[01:52:41.120 --> 01:52:47.200]  So apparently the terminology in Connecticut is different, and I'm not being pedantic here,
[01:52:47.200 --> 01:52:59.640]  but just so people understand, you have magistrate courts, and I take it that's a non-incarceration
[01:52:59.640 --> 01:53:00.640]  offense.
[01:53:00.640 --> 01:53:01.640]  Correct.
[01:53:01.640 --> 01:53:07.080]  Okay, so they're kind of like our JPs and municipal courts.
[01:53:07.080 --> 01:53:11.960]  I was just going by the verbiage of the prosecutor, that's what she called it.
[01:53:11.960 --> 01:53:14.960]  Okay, go ahead, I'll stop interrupting.
[01:53:14.960 --> 01:53:15.960]  No, it's okay.
[01:53:15.960 --> 01:53:16.960]  Maybe.
[01:53:16.960 --> 01:53:25.720]  So she had an attorney represent her in the trial and she lost, but in Connecticut you
[01:53:25.720 --> 01:53:33.560]  can do, it's called trial de novo, where it would go up to a judge and have a judicial
[01:53:33.560 --> 01:53:34.560]  trial.
[01:53:34.560 --> 01:53:39.360]  Okay, that's pretty much like everywhere else.
[01:53:39.360 --> 01:53:48.400]  Then apparently the magistrate court is what they call an inferior court, in that the adjudicator
[01:53:48.400 --> 01:53:54.520]  in the magistrate's court doesn't necessarily have to be a lawyer.
[01:53:54.520 --> 01:53:58.440]  He can be a layperson, like JPs don't have to be lawyers.
[01:53:58.440 --> 01:54:04.400]  Municipal judges don't have to be lawyers if the municipality is not a court of record.
[01:54:04.400 --> 01:54:12.120]  And because these judges aren't lawyers, an appeal from these courts doesn't have to
[01:54:12.120 --> 01:54:15.120]  be on error.
[01:54:15.120 --> 01:54:19.640]  An appeal is automatic and trial de novo.
[01:54:19.640 --> 01:54:29.040]  Trial de novo means as if the original trial didn't happen, but it's important to understand
[01:54:29.040 --> 01:54:36.040]  that it is trial de novo only for the purpose of perfecting the appeal.
[01:54:36.040 --> 01:54:37.040]  Correct.
[01:54:37.040 --> 01:54:40.760]  That's your first court record.
[01:54:40.760 --> 01:54:49.600]  Yeah, if in the original trial they testified to something, they are subject to collateral
[01:54:49.600 --> 01:54:56.520]  estoppel from testifying differently in the real trial.
[01:54:56.520 --> 01:55:02.400]  When I brought this objection up, I brought up what was said in the original trial and
[01:55:02.400 --> 01:55:07.480]  the prosecutor objected because this is trial de novo.
[01:55:07.480 --> 01:55:15.000]  And I told the judge this is trial de novo only for the purpose of perfecting appeal,
[01:55:15.000 --> 01:55:20.400]  not for the purpose of shielding this officer from charges of aggravated perjury for lying
[01:55:20.400 --> 01:55:23.440]  to the original court.
[01:55:23.440 --> 01:55:26.000]  But I got real intense in there.
[01:55:26.000 --> 01:55:27.400]  Okay, I'm going to stop now.
[01:55:27.400 --> 01:55:35.320]  I just wanted to make that point because that is a point that the lower courts tend to try
[01:55:35.320 --> 01:55:38.360]  to obscure.
[01:55:38.360 --> 01:55:42.800]  They can go into that first court and do anything they want to because if you appeal, that's
[01:55:42.800 --> 01:55:45.200]  to do over.
[01:55:45.200 --> 01:55:48.360]  Okay, go ahead.
[01:55:48.360 --> 01:55:54.720]  Okay, so before, so she filed, you know, for trial de novo, she had to actually request
[01:55:54.720 --> 01:55:57.320]  that within five days, she did it timely.
[01:55:57.320 --> 01:56:05.800]  And then what happened was she was incarcerated for a different offense in a different city.
[01:56:05.800 --> 01:56:11.160]  And she was about an hour, almost two hours away in a holding facility.
[01:56:11.160 --> 01:56:15.200]  This was about five days before her trial.
[01:56:15.200 --> 01:56:21.800]  So this trial was on a Tuesday and on the previous Friday, I actually called her attorney
[01:56:21.800 --> 01:56:27.440]  who was going to try the case and I informed him and it was like, it was after five o'clock
[01:56:27.440 --> 01:56:31.240]  I informed him that she was incarcerated and I don't think she's going to make it to the
[01:56:31.240 --> 01:56:32.240]  trial.
[01:56:32.240 --> 01:56:38.400]  So he said there's nothing he can do on Friday but he can file for a continuance on Monday
[01:56:38.400 --> 01:56:45.080]  which is required to be 24 hours before the trial date, which he did, he did that timely
[01:56:45.080 --> 01:56:49.080]  too by the time he was finally, he's actually the attorney.
[01:56:49.080 --> 01:56:54.120]  So the case was called anyway.
[01:56:54.120 --> 01:57:04.240]  So he was there and the judge was very upset that she wasn't there and he explained that
[01:57:04.240 --> 01:57:11.680]  she was arrested and she was incarcerated somewhere else and the judge was upset.
[01:57:11.680 --> 01:57:17.840]  I had the transcript from the trial, from the case and the prosecutor actually didn't
[01:57:17.840 --> 01:57:21.800]  object to the continuance, but the judge did.
[01:57:21.800 --> 01:57:25.120]  And so he denied the continuance most.
[01:57:25.120 --> 01:57:29.360]  So the judge, I guess, is claiming to have a dog in this, huh?
[01:57:29.360 --> 01:57:31.360]  Yeah, it looks like it.
[01:57:31.360 --> 01:57:37.160]  So what happened was, he's a real bastard, what happened was he has a reputation.
[01:57:37.160 --> 01:57:42.920]  So the prosecutor said, you know, the state was ready to proceed and the prosecutor said
[01:57:42.920 --> 01:57:51.120]  yes, but they, the prosecution excused the witnesses and the judge said, well, that's
[01:57:51.120 --> 01:57:52.120]  not proper.
[01:57:52.120 --> 01:57:59.160]  You're supposed to have the witnesses here and okay with me before you excuse the witnesses.
[01:57:59.160 --> 01:58:03.360]  Okay, hang on, we're about to go to break.
[01:58:03.360 --> 01:58:04.360]  Okay.
[01:58:04.360 --> 01:58:07.800]  We will pick this up on the other side.
[01:58:07.800 --> 01:58:12.800]  This is Randy Kelton, Steve Skidmore, we live on radio and we're going into our third
[01:58:12.800 --> 01:58:14.720]  hour.
[01:58:14.720 --> 01:58:17.120]  So generally things pick up toward the end.
[01:58:17.120 --> 01:58:22.640]  So if you have a question or comment, give us a call, get in line.
[01:58:22.640 --> 01:58:29.800]  We will try to get to everybody, but call early if you can.
[01:58:29.800 --> 01:58:36.080]  And while we're on break, it'd be nice if you go to our advertisers and sponsors and
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