ROL_2014-06-20_16k_Hr3-4.timecode

[00:00.000 --> 00:07.440]  You're listening to the Liberty Beat, your daily source for Liberty news and activist
[00:07.440 --> 00:15.600]  updates online at TheLibertyBeat.com.
[00:15.600 --> 00:20.240]  This is Justin Armand with your Liberty Beat for June 20th, 2014.
[00:20.240 --> 00:28.580]  Gold opens today at $1,320, silver at $20.82, and Bitcoin is trading at $595.
[00:28.580 --> 00:31.920]  Support for the Liberty Beat comes from the notorious activist Michael Cargill.
[00:31.920 --> 00:38.440]  He has a new show called Come and Talk It, live Sunday afternoon at 4 p.m. on 1370 a.m.
[00:38.440 --> 00:39.440]  in Austin.
[00:39.440 --> 00:43.740]  That's 1370 a.m. in Austin on Sunday at 4 p.m.
[00:43.740 --> 00:48.480]  And support comes from My Magic Mud, an all-natural teeth whitening and strengthening remedy.
[00:48.480 --> 00:52.480]  Go to MyMagicMud.com or pick a jar up today at Brave New Books.
[00:52.480 --> 00:53.480]  And now the news.
[00:53.480 --> 00:58.560]  A new study published in Biomed Research International examines six studies by the Center for Disease
[00:58.560 --> 01:03.560]  Control that found thimerosal, an organic mercury compound found in vaccinations, to
[01:03.560 --> 01:04.760]  be safe.
[01:04.760 --> 01:08.960]  Researchers state that despite the six studies by the CDC claiming no danger, there are over
[01:08.960 --> 01:13.000]  165 studies which have found thimerosal to be harmful.
[01:13.000 --> 01:18.080]  16 studies looking at the effects of thimerosal on human infants and children found a range
[01:18.080 --> 01:23.240]  of outcomes, including poisoning, allergic reactions, and neurological disorders.
[01:23.240 --> 01:27.840]  The researchers are calling for the CDC to reevaluate its position on thimerosal and
[01:27.840 --> 01:33.760]  its use in vaccines.
[01:33.760 --> 01:38.600]  Militants launched an attack on Iraq's largest oil reserve overnight Tuesday, but failed
[01:38.600 --> 01:40.080]  in their attempt.
[01:40.080 --> 01:44.640]  Security forces were able to repel the insurgents who have seized Iraqi military equipment provided
[01:44.640 --> 01:47.720]  to them through contracts with the U.S. government.
[01:47.720 --> 01:52.160]  With air support backup, Iraqi troops were able to destroy an ISIS convoy and gunned
[01:52.160 --> 01:55.880]  down three snipers who were trying to break into the Baji refinery.
[01:55.880 --> 02:03.120]  The Iraqi chief military spokesman said 40 attackers were killed in the fighting.
[02:03.120 --> 02:07.080]  The United States no longer ranks in the top 100 most peaceful nations.
[02:07.080 --> 02:12.960]  According to the annual Global Peace Index, it stands at 101 out of 162 nations.
[02:12.960 --> 02:17.960]  The annual assessment measures data driven from crime statistics, political forces, refugee
[02:17.960 --> 02:23.000]  activity, population trends, and other factors, including terrorism and economic conditions.
[02:23.000 --> 02:27.040]  Ireland is number one on the list, with Denmark and Austria close behind.
[02:27.040 --> 02:32.360]  The three least peaceful nations are South Sudan, Afghanistan, and Syria.
[02:32.360 --> 02:36.280]  Support for the Liberty Beat comes from Cabo Babs, now with two locations in Austin at
[02:36.280 --> 02:40.800]  500 East Ben White Boulevard and 2828 Rio Grande Boulevard.
[02:40.800 --> 02:46.520]  And from Roberts & Roberts Brokerage, Inc., specializing in precious metals since 1977.
[02:46.520 --> 02:50.600]  They don't feed the banks by taking credit cards, but you can bet they take bitcoin.
[02:50.600 --> 02:57.400]  Online at rrbi.co or by phone at 800-874-9760.
[02:57.400 --> 03:24.720]  This is Justin Armand reporting with the Liberty Beat.
[03:24.720 --> 03:31.160]  We are back, Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens here with Ken Magnuson, and we're going to
[03:31.160 --> 03:32.160]  Enrique.
[03:32.160 --> 03:42.400]  And Enrique, I understand you're having some foreclosed, some married or unmarried foreclosure
[03:42.400 --> 03:43.400]  issues.
[03:43.400 --> 03:48.200]  Yeah, I'm having a bunch of problems that I need to get situated.
[03:48.200 --> 03:55.600]  The lawyer is going to be dragging their feet, but I'm on their butt, so you know how that
[03:55.600 --> 03:56.600]  goes.
[03:56.600 --> 04:01.080]  Okay, kind of, did you have a question or did you want to just bring this up to speed?
[04:01.080 --> 04:03.760]  No, I have a question.
[04:03.760 --> 04:13.440]  I have the situation where the 72-hour notice was posted on the door for eviction way before
[04:13.440 --> 04:19.880]  the 30-day period that I have to respond.
[04:19.880 --> 04:23.400]  I didn't have accurate or...
[04:23.400 --> 04:25.400]  Well, hold on, hold on.
[04:25.400 --> 04:28.880]  The 30-day period to respond to what?
[04:28.880 --> 04:33.080]  To the order to vacate.
[04:33.080 --> 04:37.640]  Now, wait a minute.
[04:37.640 --> 04:41.720]  The notice to vacate, where did the...
[04:41.720 --> 04:43.200]  Okay, order to vacate.
[04:43.200 --> 04:45.680]  Who issued an order to vacate?
[04:45.680 --> 04:47.880]  The county court.
[04:47.880 --> 04:53.280]  Okay, so you have already been through a forcible detainer hearing.
[04:53.280 --> 04:56.400]  Yes, I was not given a...
[04:56.400 --> 05:06.880]  Like you said, I was not given accurate notice to appear, and I got the notice from the lawyers
[05:06.880 --> 05:08.680]  and not the court.
[05:08.680 --> 05:11.920]  Okay, you had a lawyer at the time?
[05:11.920 --> 05:13.960]  Yes.
[05:13.960 --> 05:16.600]  You're screwed.
[05:16.600 --> 05:17.600]  I am, right?
[05:17.600 --> 05:22.280]  The most dangerous person in the courtroom is your lawyer.
[05:22.280 --> 05:25.040]  Well, they weren't notified either.
[05:25.040 --> 05:32.960]  Well, if they weren't notified, then your lawyer should be moving for a restraining
[05:32.960 --> 05:41.320]  order or move to void the judgment.
[05:41.320 --> 05:42.320]  Yeah.
[05:42.320 --> 05:53.920]  Otherwise, if that's a red tag posted by the constables, they're going to come in 72 hours
[05:53.920 --> 05:55.800]  to put stuff on the street.
[05:55.800 --> 06:04.800]  If the lawyer doesn't do something, you need to have bankruptcy papers ready to file.
[06:04.800 --> 06:05.800]  Okay.
[06:05.800 --> 06:13.520]  So the problem is, as you were saying, the divorce deal I'm going through, but that doesn't
[06:13.520 --> 06:14.520]  matter.
[06:14.520 --> 06:21.440]  The whole thing behind it is I wasn't given a timely notice.
[06:21.440 --> 06:27.160]  Okay, but the problem is though, if your lawyer doesn't get it done, they're going to come
[06:27.160 --> 06:29.360]  put stuff out on the street anyway.
[06:29.360 --> 06:34.960]  Well, that wasn't done today, supposedly, according to her.
[06:34.960 --> 06:41.080]  That was, according to the lawyer, that was filed today.
[06:41.080 --> 06:42.840]  Okay.
[06:42.840 --> 06:45.840]  The motion for a stay?
[06:45.840 --> 06:47.840]  The motion for a retrial.
[06:47.840 --> 06:48.840]  Okay.
[06:48.840 --> 06:52.200]  Then, yeah, but that won't necessarily stop the constables.
[06:52.200 --> 06:54.520]  Well, of course not.
[06:54.520 --> 06:55.520]  They don't care.
[06:55.520 --> 06:58.040]  They're just doing their job.
[06:58.040 --> 06:59.040]  Yeah.
[06:59.040 --> 07:04.200]  Well, the constables, they really don't like having to throw people out in the street.
[07:04.200 --> 07:07.760]  And if they can get an excuse not to, then they most likely will.
[07:07.760 --> 07:16.880]  Probably your lawyer will call them and notify them that this motion has been filed and that
[07:16.880 --> 07:19.560]  should stop that issue.
[07:19.560 --> 07:22.640]  If they do show up, make sure you call your lawyer.
[07:22.640 --> 07:29.440]  But if all else fails, have a set of bankruptcy papers ready.
[07:29.440 --> 07:31.240]  You might want to make sure-
[07:31.240 --> 07:38.200]  I listen to you every chance, and I listen to you religiously.
[07:38.200 --> 07:44.120]  And I follow pretty much your advice, but that has been, even though I'm going through
[07:44.120 --> 07:53.240]  what I'm going through, I am doing what I need to do to take care of my family.
[07:53.240 --> 08:02.120]  The whole thing behind it is, these people don't seem to understand that you got to go
[08:02.120 --> 08:05.440]  through procedures and they just jump them.
[08:05.440 --> 08:07.160]  They skip them wherever they can.
[08:07.160 --> 08:09.160]  They do what they can.
[08:09.160 --> 08:13.840]  And the little guy doesn't ever have a chance with what you do.
[08:13.840 --> 08:19.360]  Well, you're dealing with sharks and it's a fight.
[08:19.360 --> 08:25.680]  I'm just a little fish that's trying to miss the teeth and I always try to get to hell.
[08:25.680 --> 08:28.800]  How many times have you part-greed these lawyers?
[08:28.800 --> 08:36.080]  I haven't never done it and I need to because I'm going through, like I said, family issues,
[08:36.080 --> 08:41.760]  that issue and another issue and I mean, I'm broke.
[08:41.760 --> 08:46.960]  I can't do anything anymore and I don't know which way to turn and-
[08:46.960 --> 08:52.920]  Well, look at it this way, things are going to get better.
[08:52.920 --> 08:54.800]  I mean, how could they get much worse?
[08:54.800 --> 08:57.800]  Don't even go there.
[08:57.800 --> 09:05.480]  You know how that empty bullet always opens up at the end?
[09:05.480 --> 09:08.960]  That's where I'm at.
[09:08.960 --> 09:16.440]  You look back on this after a while and laugh, 50 years from now-
[09:16.440 --> 09:21.920]  I'm laughing to keep from crying because-
[09:21.920 --> 09:27.200]  Well, life has a way of testing us on occasion.
[09:27.200 --> 09:33.160]  That's been testing me for the last three and a half years since I started this trip
[09:33.160 --> 09:41.800]  with you and I've done everything I was supposed to do and I'm still being tested.
[09:41.800 --> 09:49.400]  Hey, I'm on this carnival ride with you.
[09:49.400 --> 09:51.000]  Don't get complacent here.
[09:51.000 --> 09:58.160]  A red tag on your door is something that your lawyer should never have let happen, so pay
[09:58.160 --> 09:59.160]  close attention.
[09:59.160 --> 10:06.360]  I would have a set of bankruptcy papers made up and ready to file and call the-
[10:06.360 --> 10:07.360]  Say that again?
[10:07.360 --> 10:08.360]  Bankruptcy lawyer.
[10:08.360 --> 10:11.360]  I've already talked to the bankruptcy lawyer.
[10:11.360 --> 10:16.520]  Every time I turn around, like I said, I have no money anymore.
[10:16.520 --> 10:25.640]  I am flat, flicking broke, using language, but I can't even borrow money from borrowing
[10:25.640 --> 10:26.640]  money.
[10:26.640 --> 10:30.440]  That's where I'm at.
[10:30.440 --> 10:31.440]  Okay.
[10:31.440 --> 10:35.880]  That happens in divorce then.
[10:35.880 --> 10:41.840]  You can file your own bankruptcy papers.
[10:41.840 --> 10:43.640]  Do you have David's number?
[10:43.640 --> 10:45.560]  No, I don't.
[10:45.560 --> 10:48.080]  That's the whole thing.
[10:48.080 --> 10:49.080]  Send me an email.
[10:49.080 --> 10:51.280]  I'll send you David Lewis's number.
[10:51.280 --> 10:53.200]  He can help you with the bankruptcy.
[10:53.200 --> 10:54.200]  Okay.
[10:54.200 --> 11:01.760]  Well, I need to get through this because I have a family that I deeply care about even
[11:01.760 --> 11:04.120]  though we don't get along.
[11:04.120 --> 11:05.720]  I don't really care anymore.
[11:05.720 --> 11:10.800]  I'm about the foreclosure stuff.
[11:10.800 --> 11:11.800]  I don't care anymore.
[11:11.800 --> 11:18.640]  I'm to the point where they've taken me to where I have nothing left.
[11:18.640 --> 11:24.440]  All I'm doing is just trying to save the X, Y and the sum.
[11:24.440 --> 11:30.920]  To me, the whole thing behind it is the system is screwed up.
[11:30.920 --> 11:31.920]  Period.
[11:31.920 --> 11:37.800]  Well, they had, as I recall in going through your foreclosure paperwork, they had some
[11:37.800 --> 11:40.400]  serious problems.
[11:40.400 --> 11:48.240]  One place you may be able to effectively adjudicate those problems is in the bankruptcy court.
[11:48.240 --> 11:49.760]  Claim the property is unsecured.
[11:49.760 --> 11:59.000]  The problem here is the foreclosure... Did the bank buy the property back at the foreclosure
[11:59.000 --> 12:00.000]  sale?
[12:00.000 --> 12:01.000]  Yes.
[12:01.000 --> 12:03.400]  How the hell can they buy something... Okay, good.
[12:03.400 --> 12:04.400]  Good.
[12:04.400 --> 12:07.680]  Then you're in a good position because when you file bankruptcy, they're going to make
[12:07.680 --> 12:15.160]  this claim and you file the property as unsecured.
[12:15.160 --> 12:19.320]  You claim... You say it's not secure.
[12:19.320 --> 12:26.440]  The bank says, oh yeah, it is secured and you tell them, prove it up and the bankruptcy
[12:26.440 --> 12:31.720]  trustee will generally force them to hold a prove-up hearing.
[12:31.720 --> 12:36.440]  This is where we've won a bunch of them because when they come to the bankruptcy court to
[12:36.440 --> 12:41.240]  prove up their position, they can't.
[12:41.240 --> 12:42.240]  I know.
[12:42.240 --> 12:50.400]  That's my only hope is... I mean, my lawyer is a great person, but like you say, I'm their
[12:50.400 --> 12:55.960]  retirement and everybody that's on their payroll is their retirement.
[12:55.960 --> 12:56.960]  The judge is their retirement.
[12:56.960 --> 12:57.960]  We're the judge's retirement.
[12:57.960 --> 12:58.960]  That's how the system works.
[12:58.960 --> 12:59.960]  Everybody... Okay.
[12:59.960 --> 13:13.920]  You have to... Rights belong to the belligerent litigant, so you have to take them on, but
[13:13.920 --> 13:14.920]  it can be done.
[13:14.920 --> 13:24.000]  A bankruptcy with either a 13 or a seven, claiming the property is unsecured, see what
[13:24.000 --> 13:29.980]  it does is it puts the bank in a position to where they have to proactively make a statement
[13:29.980 --> 13:36.280]  of claim to the bank, to the bankruptcy trustee.
[13:36.280 --> 13:42.320]  When you challenge that claim, the trustee is going to ask them, now you come up and
[13:42.320 --> 13:45.280]  prove up your claim.
[13:45.280 --> 13:49.560]  They don't have the evidence to get that done with.
[13:49.560 --> 13:58.640]  Then the court will... I mean, the bankruptcy court will write off the claim, so they'll
[13:58.640 --> 14:03.240]  write off the note, but you still have the deed of trust to deal with, and then you go
[14:03.240 --> 14:08.760]  back in with a quiet title or a... In this case, since it's been sold, you do a trespass
[14:08.760 --> 14:15.360]  to try a title and challenge the substitute trustee's deed, claiming that your title stands
[14:15.360 --> 14:23.280]  before the substitute trustee's deed, because the deed of trust, the bank used for authority
[14:23.280 --> 14:24.280]  was invalid.
[14:24.280 --> 14:25.280]  Exactly.
[14:25.280 --> 14:31.360]  Yes, but the first thing is getting that thing written off in Chapter 7 bankruptcy is the
[14:31.360 --> 14:33.800]  best thing.
[14:33.800 --> 14:37.640]  Can you email me, or I can email you?
[14:37.640 --> 14:39.840]  Send me an email, and I'll forward it to David.
[14:39.840 --> 14:40.840]  All right.
[14:40.840 --> 14:44.480]  Well, I already did, and I sent them and forwarded it.
[14:44.480 --> 14:45.480]  Okay.
[14:45.480 --> 14:46.480]  I'll get it to him.
[14:46.480 --> 14:47.480]  All right.
[14:47.480 --> 14:48.480]  Okay.
[14:48.480 --> 14:55.520]  Well, I need that like yesterday, and I mean, like I said, to me, I can live under a bridge
[14:55.520 --> 15:03.000]  and be a happy son of a gun, but I got a family and a kid that I need to take care of, and
[15:03.000 --> 15:06.040]  I started this trip with you, and I'm going to finish this trip with you, because you
[15:06.040 --> 15:08.040]  know what's going on.
[15:08.040 --> 15:09.040]  Okay.
[15:09.040 --> 15:10.040]  Ken, you had a comment?
[15:10.040 --> 15:16.080]  Yeah, what I'm trying to figure out is how did they get this hearing for a detainer without
[15:16.080 --> 15:18.120]  sending proper notice?
[15:18.120 --> 15:22.800]  Everybody involved in that process should be sanctioned.
[15:22.800 --> 15:28.080]  Nobody got... I got it a week later after I had missed the court date.
[15:28.080 --> 15:29.080]  Okay.
[15:29.080 --> 15:31.080]  Who sent you the notice?
[15:31.080 --> 15:34.960]  Who sent the attorney... I mean, who filed this?
[15:34.960 --> 15:37.200]  The mortgage company did, right?
[15:37.200 --> 15:39.000]  The mortgage company.
[15:39.000 --> 15:40.000]  Okay.
[15:40.000 --> 15:45.160]  So they filed it on a particular date, and where was the constable's service?
[15:45.160 --> 15:47.280]  Now, wait a minute, Ken.
[15:47.280 --> 15:50.120]  He had counsel, so they would have served counsel.
[15:50.120 --> 15:51.120]  Okay.
[15:51.120 --> 15:54.640]  But they have to have service on the counsel, too.
[15:54.640 --> 15:55.640]  They didn't get it.
[15:55.640 --> 15:57.320]  They never got it.
[15:57.320 --> 15:58.320]  Okay.
[15:58.320 --> 16:04.840]  And apparently, counsel has filed a motion to strike the... to void the judgment based
[16:04.840 --> 16:09.280]  on lack of notice, and that almost always gets approved.
[16:09.280 --> 16:12.800]  Go ahead, Ken.
[16:12.800 --> 16:19.400]  But if they didn't attend service on him... See, this is the institution under Texas statute,
[16:19.400 --> 16:20.400]  if I recall correctly.
[16:20.400 --> 16:25.360]  This is an institution where it's not just send you notice by mail, they have to serve
[16:25.360 --> 16:26.360]  him.
[16:26.360 --> 16:34.480]  So where... So the judge went forward and gave the order to evict without having a citation
[16:34.480 --> 16:36.640]  of service by a constable?
[16:36.640 --> 16:37.640]  Yes.
[16:37.640 --> 16:44.800]  That looks like you should... Hang on, we're about to go to break.
[16:44.800 --> 16:48.920]  This is Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens, here with Ken Magnuson.
[16:48.920 --> 17:00.720]  I'll call in number 512-646-1984, we'll be right back.
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[18:59.760 --> 19:00.760]  You are listening to the Logos Radio Network, LogosRadioNetwork.com.
[19:00.760 --> 19:01.760]  Well, don't let nothing get to you.
[19:01.760 --> 19:02.760]  Only the father can deliver you.
[19:02.760 --> 19:03.760]  Don't let bad-minded people hurt you.
[19:03.760 --> 19:04.760]  I tell you something.
[19:04.760 --> 19:05.760]  Get behind yourself.
[19:05.760 --> 19:06.760]  Know what I mean, my friend?
[19:06.760 --> 19:07.760]  I'm not a jackass.
[19:07.760 --> 19:28.920]  Okay.
[19:28.920 --> 19:29.920]  We are back.
[19:29.920 --> 19:36.320]  Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens, here with Ken Magnuson, and we were talking to Enrique.
[19:36.320 --> 19:39.080]  Enrique, do we have anything else for you?
[19:39.080 --> 19:45.280]  No, other than the fact that I need to make sure that they don't come and throw the family
[19:45.280 --> 19:46.280]  out tomorrow.
[19:46.280 --> 19:49.520]  Yeah, that would...
[19:49.520 --> 19:51.320]  I don't think they'll do that on the weekends.
[19:51.320 --> 19:53.320]  Generally, they don't.
[19:53.320 --> 19:55.480]  Although, it's possible.
[19:55.480 --> 19:57.480]  Make sure you contact your lawyer.
[19:57.480 --> 19:58.480]  Make sure she...
[19:58.480 --> 20:03.720]  If they do, you can tell them that you have a case in.
[20:03.720 --> 20:09.480]  You might call the constables in the morning and see if they're scheduled to come out.
[20:09.480 --> 20:19.160]  Tell them that you have a motion to void this eviction order in the court so that if they
[20:19.160 --> 20:22.840]  haven't got the word, then you can get your lawyer on it.
[20:22.840 --> 20:27.200]  They're generally pretty good about that because they hate to schedule and come out and then
[20:27.200 --> 20:29.400]  have it canceled.
[20:29.400 --> 20:33.120]  You might call them first thing in the morning and find out what their deal is, and if they're
[20:33.120 --> 20:36.200]  planning to come, then get ahold of your lawyer.
[20:36.200 --> 20:39.600]  The lawyer, that's the whole thing.
[20:39.600 --> 20:44.400]  You try to call them on Friday and the Monday, and you can never get ahold of them.
[20:44.400 --> 20:47.680]  That's a good thing to bar grief for.
[20:47.680 --> 20:48.680]  And it's just kind of like...
[20:48.680 --> 20:57.000]  I mean, every time I turn around, it's 1,500 here, 2,000 there, and they want their money,
[20:57.000 --> 20:58.000]  but...
[20:58.000 --> 21:01.680]  I know how that is.
[21:01.680 --> 21:06.960]  How do you do it?
[21:06.960 --> 21:13.160]  In other words, even though that they didn't have the proper notice, they could still do
[21:13.160 --> 21:14.160]  what they're going to do.
[21:14.160 --> 21:18.040]  Yes, they could still do it, and then you could turn around and sue them for that, but...
[21:18.040 --> 21:21.040]  It doesn't matter if my family's on the street, right?
[21:21.040 --> 21:22.040]  That's true.
[21:22.040 --> 21:23.040]  That's true.
[21:23.040 --> 21:26.640]  So, you want to avoid your family on the street.
[21:26.640 --> 21:29.240]  Most likely, they won't come on the weekend, but it's possible.
[21:29.240 --> 21:34.040]  Well, like I said, I mean...
[21:34.040 --> 21:38.240]  Just call the constable in the morning.
[21:38.240 --> 21:46.720]  If you tell him that you have an action in the court, he's likely to move you to the
[21:46.720 --> 21:48.720]  bottom of the stack.
[21:48.720 --> 21:49.720]  Okay.
[21:49.720 --> 21:54.800]  Well, I'll do that in the morning, and I will catch you tomorrow with all the information
[21:54.800 --> 22:04.280]  I got, and I'm not very good on the smartphone, though, pretty much a dummy.
[22:04.280 --> 22:05.280]  Just go find a 10-year-old.
[22:05.280 --> 22:08.120]  They'll explain you all about that smartphone.
[22:08.120 --> 22:12.080]  My 18-year-old keeps going to the rock and roll station.
[22:12.080 --> 22:14.600]  18-year-old's too old.
[22:14.600 --> 22:17.400]  You need a 10-year-old to show you how to use that.
[22:17.400 --> 22:18.400]  Okay.
[22:18.400 --> 22:22.200]  My 10-year-old, they'll throw me in jail.
[22:22.200 --> 22:23.200]  Okay.
[22:23.200 --> 22:24.200]  Bye.
[22:24.200 --> 22:25.200]  Keep us in touch.
[22:25.200 --> 22:26.200]  Let us know what happens.
[22:26.200 --> 22:31.200]  You know, I'm going to need your services, because I'm going to bargain with everybody.
[22:31.200 --> 22:32.200]  Okay.
[22:32.200 --> 22:35.680]  And if they evict you, you can move in with Ken.
[22:35.680 --> 22:42.720]  No, I can't move in with anybody, because they got 11 dogs and 15 chickens.
[22:42.720 --> 22:43.720]  Okay.
[22:43.720 --> 22:44.720]  All right.
[22:44.720 --> 22:45.720]  Okay.
[22:45.720 --> 22:46.720]  Thank you, Enrique.
[22:46.720 --> 22:48.720]  We're going to go on to Sally in Michigan.
[22:48.720 --> 22:49.720]  Hello, Sally.
[22:49.720 --> 22:52.720]  What do you have for us today?
[22:52.720 --> 22:58.520]  Hi, I wanted to talk to you about subject matter jurisdiction.
[22:58.520 --> 23:08.440]  I realize that you can challenge subject matter jurisdiction even long after the case is done.
[23:08.440 --> 23:09.440]  What I would...
[23:09.440 --> 23:11.680]  I'm having trouble finding some...
[23:11.680 --> 23:14.560]  I've lost a piece of information.
[23:14.560 --> 23:23.760]  Do you know where the statute is that says anyone can challenge it at any time?
[23:23.760 --> 23:34.600]  Oh, the statute doesn't allow anyone that you would have to have standing in order to
[23:34.600 --> 23:38.360]  make a claim in the case.
[23:38.360 --> 23:42.280]  Is this the case in which you're directly involved?
[23:42.280 --> 23:45.480]  No, I don't have standing in the case.
[23:45.480 --> 23:50.800]  It's a family court case, and the case is with...
[23:50.800 --> 23:53.640]  It's my daughter's case.
[23:53.640 --> 23:58.400]  I have a case that came out of the case, but I don't have standing in my daughter's case.
[23:58.400 --> 24:04.480]  Well, your daughter would have to file the claim.
[24:04.480 --> 24:12.520]  I know that at one time, I had that statute that said anyone could challenge it.
[24:12.520 --> 24:14.640]  Ken, are you familiar with that?
[24:14.640 --> 24:15.640]  No.
[24:15.640 --> 24:19.400]  What does Wisconsin make...
[24:19.400 --> 24:25.280]  The concept of jurisdiction is that the court cannot act without jurisdiction, and jurisdiction
[24:25.280 --> 24:31.560]  can be challenged by the party that's harmed at any time, even after appeal.
[24:31.560 --> 24:36.080]  In order, just because it's sitting there on a shelf for a period of time doesn't make
[24:36.080 --> 24:43.160]  it any more valid than if it was issued yesterday by a court that had no jurisdiction.
[24:43.160 --> 24:48.240]  The challenge is usually a writ of mandamus to an appellate court or a superior court
[24:48.240 --> 24:54.560]  indicating why the jurisdiction didn't exist, and the mandamus has to be filed by the party
[24:54.560 --> 24:55.560]  that was harmed.
[24:55.560 --> 25:01.080]  As far as I'm concerned, that's the only party that can raise the issue.
[25:01.080 --> 25:07.360]  It may state that any party can do it, not that anyone can do it, but any party can address
[25:07.360 --> 25:10.360]  the issue of jurisdiction.
[25:10.360 --> 25:18.440]  Or what you might be thinking about is habeas corpus.
[25:18.440 --> 25:24.040]  Habeas corpus anyone can file, at least here in Texas, and it's most likely very similar
[25:24.040 --> 25:27.040]  in every other state.
[25:27.040 --> 25:34.560]  Anyone can file a habeas corpus for anyone, but as far as I know, filing a habeas corpus
[25:34.560 --> 25:43.640]  and filing a criminal complaint is about it, otherwise you have to have standing.
[25:43.640 --> 25:48.320]  Is there any chance you could get your daughter to make this filing?
[25:48.320 --> 25:58.360]  Oh yes, my daughter will do it, but she doesn't understand as much law as I do.
[25:58.360 --> 26:03.840]  Not that I know very much, but she doesn't, and so I just thought I'd make it easier
[26:03.840 --> 26:07.400]  on her if I did it.
[26:07.400 --> 26:12.980]  I should have had standing in the case because what we're talking about is my granddaughter
[26:12.980 --> 26:22.400]  being removed, and they removed her from my daughter, but when in fact my daughter had
[26:22.400 --> 26:25.920]  given me the right to care for my granddaughter.
[26:25.920 --> 26:36.120]  Wait, wait, are you familiar with the statutes in Wisconsin concerning grandparents' rights?
[26:36.120 --> 26:37.600]  No.
[26:37.600 --> 26:44.120]  Because different states are different on what rights they grant to a grandparent, so
[26:44.120 --> 26:47.320]  you might look at that.
[26:47.320 --> 26:56.800]  The fact that your daughter gave permission for you to care for the child, as far as I
[26:56.800 --> 27:01.800]  know, wouldn't give you standing.
[27:01.800 --> 27:04.600]  Ken, what's your take on?
[27:04.600 --> 27:12.560]  If the person is qualified in the blood relations, and the parent generally gives permission
[27:12.560 --> 27:19.000]  for so-and-so in the event that I'm injured or killed or whatever, and so-and-so would
[27:19.000 --> 27:25.760]  have custody, as far as I'm aware of, that would supersede anything else that the state
[27:25.760 --> 27:30.760]  would want to do, unless they can show that the person that they named is incapable of
[27:30.760 --> 27:31.760]  doing it.
[27:31.760 --> 27:36.000]  In the grandparents' rights, however, there's a case out of the state of Washington that
[27:36.000 --> 27:41.320]  went to the United States Supreme Court, and unless the parents want the grandparents to
[27:41.320 --> 27:47.400]  have rights, the state cannot supersede the fact that the parents do not have to give
[27:47.400 --> 27:52.240]  the grandparents any rights.
[27:52.240 --> 27:54.760]  Did your daughter really—
[27:54.760 --> 27:56.120]  In writing.
[27:56.120 --> 27:58.840]  Go ahead, Ken.
[27:58.840 --> 28:00.320]  It would have to be in writing.
[28:00.320 --> 28:04.080]  Yeah, did she grant you—
[28:04.080 --> 28:05.080]  Custody.
[28:05.080 --> 28:06.080]  Custody.
[28:06.080 --> 28:10.480]  That's the word I was looking for.
[28:10.480 --> 28:15.760]  Custody of the children, or did she just authorize you to take care of them?
[28:15.760 --> 28:16.760]  Yeah.
[28:16.760 --> 28:26.440]  I'm trying to determine if you're a babysitter or a custodial, in a custodial position.
[28:26.440 --> 28:30.000]  Oh, 24-7, okay.
[28:30.000 --> 28:35.720]  But still, that doesn't give you custodianship.
[28:35.720 --> 28:41.720]  Okay, no, I'm not talking about custodianship.
[28:41.720 --> 28:48.920]  Okay, in Michigan, there is case law, and just this month, there is the Supreme Court
[28:48.920 --> 28:57.880]  case law, which says any time that a parent gives the right of care to, say, a relative
[28:57.880 --> 29:06.280]  or anyone for that matter, and that person is willing and able to care for the child,
[29:06.280 --> 29:10.160]  that the state has no right to step in.
[29:10.160 --> 29:16.200]  Okay, was this issue, did it occur during the divorce proceeding?
[29:16.200 --> 29:19.440]  Oh, no, this has nothing to do with divorce.
[29:19.440 --> 29:20.440]  We're talking—
[29:20.440 --> 29:21.440]  Oh, okay.
[29:21.440 --> 29:26.440]  So what I was looking for was, is there another parent there that could make a claim?
[29:26.440 --> 29:27.440]  No.
[29:27.440 --> 29:28.440]  Okay.
[29:28.440 --> 29:32.880]  So she had full custody, and there was no one to object to her granting your—this
[29:32.880 --> 29:37.240]  sounds like you would be a custodian.
[29:37.240 --> 29:38.240]  Right.
[29:38.240 --> 29:46.080]  That would seem to give you standing, if you could probably file as an intervener.
[29:46.080 --> 29:47.080]  Hang on.
[29:47.080 --> 29:52.120]  Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens, Wheelbar Radio, we're here with Ken Magnuson, I'll call
[29:52.120 --> 29:55.680]  the number, 512-646-1984.
[29:55.680 --> 29:58.680]  You'll be right back.
[29:58.680 --> 30:08.800]  Brazil's government is taking a jackbooted stomp in the wrong direction, mandating locator
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[30:27.560 --> 30:32.680]  So protect your rights, say no to surveillance, and keep your information to yourself.
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[33:14.600 --> 33:43.960]  Yeah, yeah, I won't, oh I won't, I won't let you go, I won't let you go, I won't
[33:43.960 --> 34:07.980]  let you go, I won't let you go, I won't let you go, I won't let you go,
[34:07.980 --> 34:24.660]  Okay, we are back. Randy Kelton, Debra Stephens here with Ken Magnuson and we're talking to
[34:24.660 --> 34:32.460]  Sally in Michigan. I said Wisconsin earlier, but I thought they had the W upside down or
[34:32.460 --> 34:46.060]  not. Okay, question, Sally. Yeah. In Michigan, how long did you actually have full custody
[34:46.060 --> 34:52.820]  and control of the children or child for a period of time? Well, actually, if you really
[34:52.820 --> 34:57.900]  want to know, I brought her home from the hospital when my daughter couldn't come home
[34:57.900 --> 35:04.860]  because she had had such a difficult birth. Now, I lived in my daughter's home, even though
[35:04.860 --> 35:10.820]  I had a home, but I lived in my daughter's home from the time the child was born until
[35:10.820 --> 35:17.220]  the time they took the child at the age of five years. I took care of her every single
[35:17.220 --> 35:24.180]  day, all day. Okay. Is there anything in Michigan law that
[35:24.180 --> 35:33.180]  would give you claim to custodianship of the child? Was your daughter in any way incapacitated?
[35:33.180 --> 35:42.820]  No, she was just ill. That's interesting. You need to look at Michigan
[35:42.820 --> 35:56.660]  law. We're trying to find a way to... Okay, hold on. Another question. How was the child
[35:56.660 --> 36:05.820]  taken from your daughter? Who did it? What were the circumstances?
[36:05.820 --> 36:13.220]  Okay. Well, it was a circuit court judge that- No, no. Was it the state that took the child
[36:13.220 --> 36:20.540]  or say a maternal parent that took the child? The state, Child Protective Service, which
[36:20.540 --> 36:27.460]  you probably know is an evil agency of our government.
[36:27.460 --> 36:38.020]  Okay. Was the child in your care at the time? Yes. At the time that they actually took her,
[36:38.020 --> 36:47.220]  they did take her from me because they had told my daughter to... Well, actually, what
[36:47.220 --> 36:55.020]  they did was they gave me relative caregiver and told my daughter to move the child out
[36:55.020 --> 37:00.420]  of the home. My daughter said, no, I will move out of the home. My child does not need
[37:00.420 --> 37:11.780]  to leave her home. My granddaughter and I lived there without my daughter. Then they
[37:11.780 --> 37:19.580]  took her away from me. Okay. If they took her away from you, you have
[37:19.580 --> 37:26.340]  standing. I know I had standing, but the judge refused to acknowledge that I had standing.
[37:26.340 --> 37:34.220]  I even hired an attorney to legally get the standing on the record and the judge refused.
[37:34.220 --> 37:40.500]  Did you appeal? No, that attorney didn't offer me that and
[37:40.500 --> 37:44.660]  I- Okay. Hold on. How were you getting to subject
[37:44.660 --> 37:52.700]  matter jurisdiction? Let me explain why I'm asking that question because if the case was
[37:52.700 --> 38:01.180]  adjudicated and it wasn't appealed, then you could be out of time on that. However, subject
[38:01.180 --> 38:11.980]  matter jurisdiction, and you clearly understood that can be challenged at any time. How can
[38:11.980 --> 38:20.420]  we get to the point that you can go back and claim that the judge never had the capacity
[38:20.420 --> 38:26.100]  to hear the case in the first place? Because of the fact that there is case law
[38:26.100 --> 38:32.180]  out of the court of appeals and then this month there's case law out of the Supreme
[38:32.180 --> 38:41.260]  Court here in Michigan that states very clearly when the parent has provided care of the child
[38:41.260 --> 38:48.980]  by giving that right to someone else, that the state has no interest. There are cases
[38:48.980 --> 38:58.380]  that are overturned that are almost identical. Okay. Hold on. Was that a new ruling or did
[38:58.380 --> 39:07.380]  that ruling stand on prior case law? It stands on statute.
[39:07.380 --> 39:17.340]  Oh. Then do you know what the statute says? Not off the top of my head. Sorry.
[39:17.340 --> 39:25.220]  Okay. Then if you have statute that would direct the court in a specific way and the
[39:25.220 --> 39:35.460]  subsequent case law supports the position that you want to take, Kim, would we have
[39:35.460 --> 39:40.180]  to challenge subject matter jurisdiction? This isn't about subject matter jurisdiction.
[39:40.180 --> 39:46.220]  This is about the court giving an order that's void because they lack the authority to rule
[39:46.220 --> 39:53.980]  based on a statutory prohibition. Well, yeah, but the only way I can get there,
[39:53.980 --> 40:00.020]  if we claim if we don't challenge subject matter jurisdiction, now we're in plenary
[40:00.020 --> 40:08.420]  jurisdiction and appeal timeframe. No, no. It's mandamus. He cannot grant an order
[40:08.420 --> 40:13.820]  for this in violation of statute. So you can file the mandamus-
[40:13.820 --> 40:19.500]  She could have challenged it on appeal, but now that appeal time is pulled, mandamus is
[40:19.500 --> 40:25.180]  the proper relief. To appeals court?
[40:25.180 --> 40:28.820]  Yes. What would you file?
[40:28.820 --> 40:33.100]  So you'd go to the appeals court and petition for a mandamus-
[40:33.100 --> 40:38.780]  Read a mandamus based on the fact that the judge exceeded his authority by granting the
[40:38.780 --> 40:44.420]  state custody of a child in which they were prohibited from taking since the grandmother
[40:44.420 --> 40:51.060]  had custody originally and the statute addresses that issue. He can't change statutory law.
[40:51.060 --> 40:56.940]  No matter how much time goes by, he's still prohibited from doing that. And when he exceeds
[40:56.940 --> 41:04.420]  his authority, mandamus, and you have no other remedy. See, if this had just happened, remedy
[41:04.420 --> 41:10.740]  would be appeals court. But when remedy is unavailable, mandamus is for a void order.
[41:10.740 --> 41:13.060]  This is a void order. He never could have written this order.
[41:13.060 --> 41:18.820]  So he exceeded his jurisdiction. Exactly. Okay. Now I-
[41:18.820 --> 41:21.220]  Well, he may have had jurisdiction over the child.
[41:21.220 --> 41:27.140]  What Ken said, yeah, but mandamus is the remedy, not necessarily a challenge to subject matter
[41:27.140 --> 41:30.540]  jurisdiction. Right.
[41:30.540 --> 41:36.060]  He may have had jurisdiction over the child, but he was prohibited from the determination
[41:36.060 --> 41:37.740]  he made. Statute prohibited.
[41:37.740 --> 41:41.020]  And in that case, he exceeded the jurisdiction, but-
[41:41.020 --> 41:42.900]  He exceeded his authority.
[41:42.900 --> 41:50.660]  That's kind of why the mandamus would still be valid at this point in time.
[41:50.660 --> 41:55.220]  It's valid at any point in time. An order can't be an order just because time goes by.
[41:55.220 --> 42:00.940]  If it's void, it's void. You can collaterally attack it at any point in time.
[42:00.940 --> 42:08.700]  So the mandamus goes to the court of appeals. Now this case is not new. Okay. This case
[42:08.700 --> 42:14.260]  is 10 years old and the child has been adopted. But if it's void-
[42:14.260 --> 42:16.260]  So void order.
[42:16.260 --> 42:23.860]  Okay. Hold on. Why are you doing this?
[42:23.860 --> 42:26.980]  What? Why?
[42:26.980 --> 42:28.980]  Yeah.
[42:28.980 --> 42:35.780]  Because we love her. I have been fighting for 10 years. She left at the age of- she's
[42:35.780 --> 42:37.220]  14.
[42:37.220 --> 42:40.740]  Have you talked to the adoptive parents?
[42:40.740 --> 42:44.580]  Oh my, they wouldn't talk to us.
[42:44.580 --> 42:51.460]  And that may be because they were told by the adoption agencies not to.
[42:51.460 --> 43:00.620]  No, because they know that I want her. I have wanted her from the day they took her and
[43:00.620 --> 43:01.620]  therefore-
[43:01.620 --> 43:08.340]  Okay. The reason I'm asking, how have they treated the child?
[43:08.340 --> 43:11.740]  That is something we don't know.
[43:11.740 --> 43:21.260]  I would suggest just being a grandpa that, you know, I have a niece right now that's
[43:21.260 --> 43:32.020]  in a contentious divorce issue with her husband. And I think her husband is a no good, lousy,
[43:32.020 --> 43:41.260]  worthless scumbag. However, he's treated that- he's raised the children well. So I have
[43:41.260 --> 43:47.500]  to always consider what is in the best interest of that child. But let me go back to that
[43:47.500 --> 43:53.180]  when we come back on the other side. This is Randy Kelton, Steve- Debra Stevens, Ken
[43:53.180 --> 43:59.180]  Magnuson. We'll be right back.
[43:59.180 --> 44:08.260]  Hello. My name is Stuart Smith from naturespureorganics.com. And I would like to invite you to come by our
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[46:21.740 --> 46:28.740]  Okay. We are back.
[46:51.740 --> 46:58.740]  Randy Kelton. Steve Stibbs. Randy Kelton. There was Steven. Here with Kid Magnuson.
[46:58.740 --> 47:06.740]  I'm a little flustered because on the break, I was kind of staggering through a moral dilemma.
[47:06.740 --> 47:21.660]  Sadly, I am a grandpa, and I'm dealing with one of these issues now. My niece has a husband
[47:21.660 --> 47:28.380]  that I think is a real no-good worthless blah, blah, blah, but I don't get to have a real
[47:28.380 --> 47:37.580]  opinion on that, and it is a duty for me. I told my niece when I got pushed into dealing
[47:37.580 --> 47:44.940]  with this that I don't care about you. I don't care about your husband. I only care about
[47:44.940 --> 47:55.500]  those children, and everything I do will be for what I believe to be is in the best interest
[47:55.500 --> 48:02.060]  of those children no matter what I want, no matter what I prefer. If the children don't
[48:02.060 --> 48:10.980]  come first, I'm not going to do it. Are you doing this for the benefit of that child?
[48:10.980 --> 48:16.300]  We don't know because we don't know what's happening to her. The only thing that we do
[48:16.300 --> 48:22.580]  know is, do you know what a CASA is? Wait, say that again?
[48:22.580 --> 48:27.660]  You know what a CASA is? A Court Appointed Special Advocate who is a volunteer to the
[48:27.660 --> 48:35.100]  court, the voice of the child to the judge? No, I'm not sure. Hang on just a second. I'm
[48:35.100 --> 48:47.740]  having a technical issue. We have a technical issue. Damien, will you mute? Thank you. Okay.
[48:47.740 --> 48:55.940]  We have sometimes the producer, if he gets to mute his mic, he's screening another call.
[48:55.940 --> 49:00.060]  This kind of thing is going in the background. He doesn't go out on your mic, but he goes
[49:00.060 --> 49:05.780]  out on my mic, so I've got you in one ear and somebody else in the other ear. Thirty
[49:05.780 --> 49:12.660]  years ago, I could multitask. That ability is long gone. Okay. I'm sorry, Sally. I'm
[49:12.660 --> 49:21.580]  not being facetious or presumptuous here. I just got caught on a moral, on the horns
[49:21.580 --> 49:34.540]  of a moral dilemma. I'm a grandpa and I understand your position. Do you have any reason to believe
[49:34.540 --> 49:44.580]  that the child has been in any way mistreated? No. Other than the fact that the CASA volunteer
[49:44.580 --> 49:55.300]  who kept in contact in the beginning with her, the people that adopted her, the fellow
[49:55.300 --> 50:14.700]  is a very forceful person, very demanding, nasty in his talking. We see a lot of, because
[50:14.700 --> 50:21.860]  there were two cases. My case came out of my daughter's case. In my case, I got to
[50:21.860 --> 50:30.460]  get all the exhibits, and where they had talked about my granddaughter, they told all kinds
[50:30.460 --> 50:39.380]  of lies. In the beginning, they even told her that her mother was dead. That's not
[50:39.380 --> 50:47.340]  so, and there were a lot of minor stupid things that they told her. That's not the problem
[50:47.340 --> 50:56.860]  of the child. How old was the child when she was adopted? Five. Well, actually, it didn't
[50:56.860 --> 51:00.940]  happen for a couple of years, because first of all, they had to terminate my daughter's
[51:00.940 --> 51:09.780]  right. Okay. How old was the child when she went to this other couple? Five. Okay. She
[51:09.780 --> 51:20.420]  was five. Right. She had memories of her parents. This is really, that would be really difficult
[51:20.420 --> 51:35.660]  for the child. Yes. Are there any CPS reports on the adoptive parents? Well, I suppose there
[51:35.660 --> 51:44.860]  are. We need to check. If there are none, then the indication is that they're raising
[51:44.860 --> 51:53.620]  her at least in an acceptable manner. I'm certain, if I had a grandchild that I couldn't
[51:53.620 --> 52:01.860]  contact, it would make me nuts. Well, first of all, once the PS finds parents to adopt
[52:01.860 --> 52:11.180]  a child, they no longer check on the child. Yeah, but it's easy enough to check with child
[52:11.180 --> 52:21.940]  protective services wherever they're at and see if anything shows up. If nothing does,
[52:21.940 --> 52:33.260]  then I'm not asking all the right questions. What is your intention here? Do you want to
[52:33.260 --> 52:43.780]  get the child back? Yes. And she's 14, you know? Yes. And she's been with this couple
[52:43.780 --> 52:53.420]  since she was five. Right. What kind of effect is that likely to have on this child? Probably
[52:53.420 --> 53:00.860]  the same effect it had on the day they snatched her from us. Yeah. Think about that. You're
[53:00.860 --> 53:07.140]  five years old and you get ripped away from your life and your family. Right. Do you really
[53:07.140 --> 53:16.380]  want to do that to her again? Why would you do that to the grandchild? We don't want to
[53:16.380 --> 53:21.700]  do that to her again. But you see, let me tell you one thing, okay? And this was never
[53:21.700 --> 53:30.620]  a part of the case. She was born with a foreshortened right femur. My daughter took her when she
[53:30.620 --> 53:39.380]  was 14 months old to the world's best limb lengthening specialist in Baltimore. He said
[53:39.380 --> 53:46.220]  that she would need two operations, maybe three at the most, in her lifetime to get
[53:46.220 --> 53:52.060]  her legs even. The state of Michigan didn't even care about that. They just wanted to
[53:52.060 --> 53:57.300]  cut her leg off, which was really stupid because there was nothing wrong with it. She could
[53:57.300 --> 54:07.340]  always wear a lift on her shoe. And when she was adopted by these people, did they want
[54:07.340 --> 54:13.300]  to take her to the world's best doctor as we did? No, they didn't. They took her to
[54:13.300 --> 54:20.540]  the Shriners. Now, the first time the Shriners took her, I was with her, okay? And I said
[54:20.540 --> 54:28.420]  to the doctor at the Shriners, I said, Dr. Paley is his name, the best in the world.
[54:28.420 --> 54:33.940]  And I said, Dr. Paley says she's an easy fix. And instantly the doctor says to me,
[54:33.940 --> 54:40.180]  well, yeah, for Dr. Paley, but we got to decide if we can do this. And then I consulted with
[54:40.180 --> 54:47.020]  Dr. Paley's office and I was told we fix all the Shriners' mistakes because they don't
[54:47.020 --> 54:58.940]  know how to do this. Okay. Now, when she was probably somewhere around the age of seven
[54:58.940 --> 55:08.860]  or eight, okay, we went to the school, her elementary school, and we're talking with
[55:08.860 --> 55:13.660]  the principal because we know where she lives. We know what school she goes to. We can't
[55:13.660 --> 55:20.780]  see her, but we were talking with the principal and we said, do you know how many operations
[55:20.780 --> 55:26.780]  she's had? And he said, well, you know, I happened to ask her that just today because
[55:26.780 --> 55:32.660]  it was field day and he was riding with her in a car to the field. And he said, I asked
[55:32.660 --> 55:41.220]  her and she said she'd had six. Now, she may be going to the Shriners and she may be having
[55:41.220 --> 55:50.660]  operations, but when the world's best doctor says it will only require two and maybe three
[55:50.660 --> 55:56.900]  by the time she's an adult and at the age of seven or eight, she's already had six.
[55:56.900 --> 56:08.100]  We call that abuse. Well, does the daughter consider it abuse? That's most definitely.
[56:08.100 --> 56:23.780]  I'm concerned. Were the operations that were performed on the granddaughter more invasive
[56:23.780 --> 56:29.780]  or less invasive than the ones this best of the best intended to do?
[56:29.780 --> 56:33.780]  We haven't got a clue what they did to her.
[56:33.780 --> 56:41.220]  They could have goofed and decided, oh, well, let's try another operation and see if we
[56:41.220 --> 56:50.020]  can make it better. Now, you know, I'm sure the Shriners do work, but they are not specialists
[56:50.020 --> 56:59.420]  in limb lengthening. Okay. And therefore, when the Shriners do a limb lengthening operation
[56:59.420 --> 57:05.180]  that takes only a couple of days and send a child home in less than a week versus a
[57:05.180 --> 57:12.220]  doctor who keeps the child almost three months and gives daily attention to that child because
[57:12.220 --> 57:19.180]  that's what's required to make the bone grow properly again. You know, somebody has to
[57:19.180 --> 57:25.820]  use their brain here, but no, we do not know what's happened to her. We don't know at
[57:25.820 --> 57:33.260]  all. And she also lives in a family where there are two other adopted children who do
[57:33.260 --> 57:41.820]  get to see their grandmothers, but their grandmothers don't want them. This grandmother wants her.
[57:41.820 --> 57:56.060]  Therefore, I can't. Okay. This is difficult. If you attempt to force the other parents
[57:56.060 --> 58:03.820]  to allow you to see the granddaughter, if you push, they will absolutely push back.
[58:03.820 --> 58:12.380]  Oh yes, I know. That's what I have to do on the court. The child will be 16 in two years.
[58:12.380 --> 58:17.420]  I know. And let me tell you this, the contracted agency of the CPS that-
[58:17.420 --> 58:22.460]  Okay. Wait, wait. Hold on. We're about to go to break. This is Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens.
[58:22.460 --> 58:31.980]  We have our radio. Our call-in number is 512-646-1984. We're here with Tim Magnuson and I apologize
[58:31.980 --> 58:40.300]  if I sound like I'm being presumptuous, but I'm a grandpa and my grandpa genes are coming out
[58:40.300 --> 58:47.180]  and my concern for children is kind of overriding the legal issues. And I apologize if I offend
[58:47.180 --> 58:54.060]  anyone. We'll be right back. Would you like to make more definite progress in your walk with God?
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[59:49.100 --> 59:58.780]  You're listening to the Logos Radio Network at logosradionetwork.com.
[01:00:03.420 --> 01:00:06.780]  You're listening to the Liberty Beat, your daily source for Liberty news
[01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:09.820]  and activist updates, online at thelibertybeat.com.
[01:00:09.820 --> 01:00:22.780]  This is Justin Armand with your Liberty Beat for June 20th, 2014. Gold opened today at $1,320,
[01:00:22.780 --> 01:00:29.900]  silver at $20.82, and Bitcoin is trading at $595. Support for the Liberty Beat comes from the
[01:00:29.900 --> 01:00:35.180]  notorious activist Michael Cargill. He has a new show called Come and Talk It, live Sunday
[01:00:35.180 --> 01:00:43.500]  afternoon at 4 p.m. on 1370 a.m. in Austin. That's 1370 a.m. in Austin on Sunday at 4 p.m.
[01:00:43.500 --> 01:00:48.300]  And support comes from My Magic Mud, an all-natural teeth whitening and strengthening remedy.
[01:00:48.300 --> 01:00:54.140]  Go to mymagicmud.com or pick a jar up today at Brave New Books. And now the news. A new study
[01:00:54.140 --> 01:00:58.620]  published in Biomed Research International examined six studies by the Center for Disease
[01:00:58.620 --> 01:01:04.220]  Control that found thimerosal, an organic mercury compound found in vaccinations, to be safe.
[01:01:04.220 --> 01:01:10.140]  Researchers state that despite the six studies by the CDC claiming no danger, there are over 165
[01:01:10.140 --> 01:01:15.500]  studies which have found thimerosal to be harmful. 16 studies looking at the effects of thimerosal
[01:01:15.500 --> 01:01:21.340]  on human infants and children found a range of outcomes, including poisoning, allergic reactions,
[01:01:21.340 --> 01:01:26.540]  and neurological disorders. The researchers are calling for the CDC to reevaluate its position
[01:01:26.540 --> 01:01:36.780]  on thimerosal and its use in vaccines. Militants launched an attack on Iraq's largest oil reserve
[01:01:36.780 --> 01:01:42.220]  overnight Tuesday but failed in their attempt. Security forces were able to repel the insurgents
[01:01:42.220 --> 01:01:46.780]  who have seized Iraqi military equipment provided to them through contracts with the U.S. Government.
[01:01:47.420 --> 01:01:52.780]  With air support backup, Iraqi troops were able to destroy an ISIS convoy and gunned down three
[01:01:52.780 --> 01:01:57.900]  snipers who were trying to break into the Baji refinery. The Iraqi chief military spokesman said
[01:01:57.900 --> 01:02:05.980]  40 attackers were killed in the fighting. The United States no longer ranks in the top 100 most
[01:02:05.980 --> 01:02:12.780]  peaceful nations. According to the annual Global Peace Index, it stands at 101 out of 162 nations.
[01:02:12.780 --> 01:02:17.260]  The annual assessment measures data driven from crime statistics, political forces,
[01:02:17.260 --> 01:02:22.860]  refugee activity, population trends, and other factors including terrorism and economic conditions.
[01:02:22.860 --> 01:02:28.140]  Ireland is number one on the list with Denmark and Austria close behind. The three least peaceful
[01:02:28.140 --> 01:02:34.460]  nations are South Sudan, Afghanistan, and Syria. Support for the Liberty Beat comes from Cabo Bobs,
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[01:02:49.660 --> 01:03:17.660]  bitcoin online at rrbi.co or by phone at 800-874-9760. This is Justin Armand reporting with the Liberty Beat.
[01:03:19.660 --> 01:03:33.660]  I will identify my father's heart, I will identify my father's heart.
[01:03:33.660 --> 01:03:50.660]  Because of me with the strength and wisdom, I will identify my father's heart. I will identify my father's heart. I will identify my father's heart. I will identify my father's heart.
[01:03:50.660 --> 01:03:59.660]  Okay, we are back in Kelton Deborah Stevens here with Ken Mangelsen, we have our radio, and we're talking to Sally in Michigan.
[01:03:59.660 --> 01:04:14.660]  And Sally, you know, I've been doing this show a long time, and I have been this uncomfortable probably three or four times.
[01:04:14.660 --> 01:04:29.660]  For me, this is very difficult. When you have the law that, from what you've told us, appears to be very clearly on your side.
[01:04:29.660 --> 01:04:47.660]  I think so. Yeah, and then the child over there, she didn't do anything to anybody. She's ripped away from her parents and a grandmother who loved her, and she split into another family. She didn't have anything to do with that.
[01:04:47.660 --> 01:05:01.660]  And there had to be a serious trauma for her and a serious difficult adjustment. And she goes into a family that has adopted two other children, they obviously love children.
[01:05:01.660 --> 01:05:10.660]  And I have no doubt that this family thinks they're doing absolutely the best they can for these children, for the girl.
[01:05:10.660 --> 01:05:33.660]  Do we tie this child away from these people, even if we have the right to? I understand your thinking. I really do. But you see, I don't know these people other than what has taken place, and from what has taken place, I would say I wouldn't want my grandchild with them.
[01:05:33.660 --> 01:06:00.660]  Well, you say, you know, Ken and I talked about this on the break. Since the child was five, she went with these people. And do you have any doubt that these people did anything other than what they believed was in the child's best interest? Six operations, that had to be a lot of money.
[01:06:00.660 --> 01:06:05.660]  Yeah, but China does it for free. Dr. Bailey does not.
[01:06:05.660 --> 01:06:21.660]  Okay, we're not in China. And do you think that they did anything other than what they believed to be was in the best interest of the child?
[01:06:21.660 --> 01:06:23.660]  I don't know.
[01:06:23.660 --> 01:06:43.660]  I know this is hard. And I go back to my own rules. When it's a matter of parents and children, my only consideration can be the children. I had a friend of mine whose wife left him for another woman.
[01:06:43.660 --> 01:07:09.660]  She didn't want the child, had a three-year-old boy. She didn't want to take the boy. The father did. And the judge here in Wise County, Texas, just ran them through the wringer, because it was his consideration that the child always goes through to the mother.
[01:07:09.660 --> 01:07:26.660]  Even though the mother didn't want the child, he felt that was right, and he didn't care what anybody thought he was going to do what he thought was best for the child. He took them six months, and he finally allowed Hal to take the child.
[01:07:26.660 --> 01:07:48.660]  And Hal did a wonderful job raising that child. But I was really pleased with the court, even though they gave them so much difficulty, that the court did not care what the mother wanted, did not care what the father wanted. He only cared what was best for those children.
[01:07:48.660 --> 01:08:09.660]  When you're inside a situation, it's hard to separate yourself. And here, would it be best for this girl if she was taken away from these people who've raised her since she was five and put into your custody?
[01:08:09.660 --> 01:08:28.660]  I have no idea, but let me tell you this. She was taken away, and the state always says it is in the best interest of the child. Was it really the best interest to take her away from a family that dearly loved her?
[01:08:28.660 --> 01:08:44.660]  I don't know. This Sunday, I took my sister-in-law to the hospital because she hurt her hip, and I met a woman there that I talk about on the air often when we discuss child protective services issues.
[01:08:44.660 --> 01:08:59.660]  She was a mother of six, and she worked for child protective services. She had two children that she was trying to get the judge to take away from their parents, and he wouldn't do it. They were serious drug addicts.
[01:08:59.660 --> 01:09:17.660]  And she brought them before the court two or three times, and the judge just refused. The two-year-old got out on the porch. The three-year-old went out to try to get the two-year-old in. The door closed behind them. The parents were passed out on drugs.
[01:09:17.660 --> 01:09:34.660]  Both of them froze to death on the porch. It just killed her soul. I'm still haunted by the look on her face when she told me what had happened. She quit child protective services. She just absolutely could not do it.
[01:09:34.660 --> 01:09:55.660]  I saw her Sunday. She had a daughter with a granddaughter in her lap, and her other daughter was in the hospital having another baby. Her son had just got a full scholarship to the Air Force Academy, and she was just absolutely beaming.
[01:09:55.660 --> 01:10:11.660]  And I could not have been more thrilled. The difficulty of child protective services and family courts are dealing with these kinds of issues is just, it's horrible. I couldn't do it.
[01:10:11.660 --> 01:10:38.660]  What's best for the child? And I know this is not right. I do a show on legal reform. I do a show on finding remedy. But I am so concerned here. This is probably four times in the last six years I've been doing this show that this kind of concern has come up.
[01:10:38.660 --> 01:10:57.660]  Okay, let me tell you this. Right after she was taken by the contracted agency for child protective service, the director of that agency said to me, she'll be back when she's 18. They all go home when they're 18.
[01:10:57.660 --> 01:11:09.660]  Do you want me to have to explain to her someday? Why didn't you fight for me, Granny? No, I don't. I want to show her I did.
[01:11:09.660 --> 01:11:28.660]  Perfect. You sold me. Thank you. Now I'm comfortable. I once told a prosecutor when I was trying to get him to do something he really didn't want to.
[01:11:28.660 --> 01:11:44.660]  I told him I'm a Vietnam veteran. And my government convinced me to go to Vietnam and do these things that were supposed to be right. And because I did that, these hands have wrongful blood on them.
[01:11:44.660 --> 01:12:03.660]  And I was trying to get the prosecutor to do what I believed was the right thing for the right reason. And I asked him, when this is over, I don't intend to have any more wrongful blood on my hands. Are you going to be able to tell your children or your grandchildren the same thing?
[01:12:03.660 --> 01:12:11.660]  That you did the right thing for the right reasons. And that was, I could not have heard a more perfect answer from you. Thank you very much.
[01:12:11.660 --> 01:12:21.660]  Okay, now let's go back and I'll quit interfering. You are absolutely right.
[01:12:21.660 --> 01:12:44.660]  Now I have to tell you something else. You know, the CASA that we had, the court appointed special advocates, who is the voice of the child to the judge, they're volunteers. And she had to go into court and testify, you know, and various things like that.
[01:12:44.660 --> 01:13:05.660]  After she did that, she was told by her supervisors, by the guardian, to change her report. She said, why would I change my report? This grandmother takes care of this child very well. There is a deep love between the two of them.
[01:13:05.660 --> 01:13:24.660]  She was shunned by her supervisor. Her supervisor wouldn't even sit with her in the courtroom. And she quit being a CASA because she said this case was so unjust that somebody must be walking by and the dogs are going to let them know.
[01:13:24.660 --> 01:13:42.660]  But everything was so unjust that she quit being a CASA and her sister, who was a CASA, also quit. But there was nothing right about this case at all. The judge looked at me and she said, this is a wonderful child.
[01:13:42.660 --> 01:13:56.660]  Well, how did she get to be a wonderful child? And not only that, to this day, we believe that she was adopted by someone the judge knew. Not that that's illegal, but not exactly right.
[01:13:56.660 --> 01:14:20.660]  Exactly. And okay, now I'm concerned because, you know, I think about a five-year-old being taken away from the people that she's known and have taken care of her, which brings me back to a question. How did the Child Protective Services ever get even involved in this case?
[01:14:20.660 --> 01:14:27.660]  Because, as I told you, my daughter is not well.
[01:14:27.660 --> 01:14:32.660]  By not well, do you mean ill or?
[01:14:32.660 --> 01:14:56.660]  She was born with a condition of sleeping. Okay, she sleeps endlessly and they call it chronic fatigue syndrome. But whether it is or not, there are doctors now who are looking into the condition where people just don't wake up.
[01:14:56.660 --> 01:15:12.660]  In fact, when she was an infant, I never had a night feeding. I thought I had a perfect job because you had to wake her up in order to feed her. And she's been that way all her life.
[01:15:12.660 --> 01:15:34.660]  And it has caused her to become bipolar. She is very stressed, depressed. She's held very good jobs. She's worked at one time, you know, in a bank as a mortgage broker for the bank and an assistant manager, et cetera. She's provided, she built a home.
[01:15:34.660 --> 01:16:00.660]  Okay, okay, hold on. So there's no accusations of drug abuse. There's no accusation of abuse of the child. There's only the concern that the mother, because of this particular condition, may not be able to adequately care for the child. Does that sound accurate?
[01:16:00.660 --> 01:16:14.660]  You know, this is true. And, you know, I think that's what they were thinking. There was never...
[01:16:14.660 --> 01:16:35.660]  But if you were there, that would seem to mitigate the condition because there was always a caregiver present. How did they get to the point of actually, you know, taking a child from its maternal parents is a big deal. How did they get there?
[01:16:35.660 --> 01:17:00.660]  Hang on. Hang on. The bumper music's on. We're about to go to break. This is Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens, here with Ken Magnuson. Mike, I see you there. Hang on. We'll be right back on the other side. We'll get to you, Mike. This is one of the more disturbing issues I've had to deal with. We'll be right back.
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[01:19:00.660 --> 01:19:14.660]  This is the Logos Logo Radio Network.
[01:19:30.660 --> 01:19:46.660]  If I can't get everything I want, maybe I'll get a Ranger.
[01:19:46.660 --> 01:20:01.660]  If I can't get everything I need, maybe I'll get a Ranger.
[01:20:01.660 --> 01:20:16.660]  If I can't get everything I need, maybe I'll get a Ranger.
[01:20:16.660 --> 01:20:40.660]  If I can't get everything I need, maybe I'll get a Ranger.
[01:20:40.660 --> 01:21:00.660]  Okay, we are back. Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens here with Ken Magnuson, Rule of Law Radio, and we're talking to Sally in Michigan. Sally, I do this show a lot and it's very solemn that I come across one that affects me this much and I have to admit this one is difficult.
[01:21:00.660 --> 01:21:06.660]  And I guess it's always with the children that it's difficult.
[01:21:06.660 --> 01:21:11.660]  Okay, you there? Okay, and we lost Ken on the break so we've got Ken back up.
[01:21:11.660 --> 01:21:18.660]  Okay, where were we Sally?
[01:21:18.660 --> 01:21:20.660]  Hang on just a second.
[01:21:20.660 --> 01:21:23.660]  You show to be unmuted.
[01:21:23.660 --> 01:21:26.660]  Let me refresh my bridge.
[01:21:26.660 --> 01:21:30.660]  Sally, are you there?
[01:21:30.660 --> 01:21:34.660]  It looks like we lost Sally and that's
[01:21:34.660 --> 01:21:37.660]  Oh, good. There you are.
[01:21:37.660 --> 01:21:42.660]  Okay.
[01:21:42.660 --> 01:21:44.660]  Okay, say that again.
[01:21:44.660 --> 01:21:47.660]  I said I must have hit the wrong button on my phone.
[01:21:47.660 --> 01:22:05.660]  Oh, okay. Okay, good. We're back. Okay. And I am pleased your response to me and my interference in your business could not have been more perfect.
[01:22:05.660 --> 01:22:13.660]  The child needs to know that everybody around her loved her and would fight for her.
[01:22:13.660 --> 01:22:19.660]  Now we were looking at how they removed her.
[01:22:19.660 --> 01:22:30.660]  But I'm still concerned about even if though what they did was totally improper and inappropriate.
[01:22:30.660 --> 01:22:49.660]  How did you have any idea how the child got to this family? Is there any indication that there was anything inappropriate on the part of the judge of the courts or anything else that brought the child to this family?
[01:22:49.660 --> 01:23:00.660]  No, I don't see anything that was illegal. I would have hopped on that a long time ago.
[01:23:00.660 --> 01:23:19.660]  Was the court's concern the fact that your daughter had trouble waking up? It's difficult to see how they could get there when you were essentially the caregiver.
[01:23:19.660 --> 01:23:41.660]  Exactly. No, they never took that into account. In fact, as I read papers that I was not privy to during the case, because I got the papers when I appealed my part of the case.
[01:23:41.660 --> 01:23:52.660]  When I tried to adopt my granddaughter, I was given all the exhibits that were part of the case so that I could use them in the appeal.
[01:23:52.660 --> 01:24:00.660]  I did my own appeal and I argued my own appeal before the Court of Appeals.
[01:24:00.660 --> 01:24:12.660]  However, at that point even, I didn't know about subject matter jurisdiction. That should have been an issue in the very beginning and I think it would have stopped the case right then and there.
[01:24:12.660 --> 01:24:25.660]  I don't know what point I was trying to make there. What was I talking about? I lost it.
[01:24:25.660 --> 01:24:38.660]  I can tell you that from talking to my 92-year-old mother, that is not going to get better.
[01:24:38.660 --> 01:24:53.660]  We were talking about why they didn't leave the child with you, how they determined that it would be better to take the child away from the people who knew her and loved her and give her to complete strangers.
[01:24:53.660 --> 01:25:09.660]  As I said, they did give me relative care giver and my daughter moved out of her home so that her daughter did not have to because the court was ordering her, the child, to leave the home, not the mother.
[01:25:09.660 --> 01:25:17.660]  My daughter wouldn't have that so then my daughter, my granddaughter and I resided in the home.
[01:25:17.660 --> 01:25:33.660]  One day the caseworker for the contracted agency was in the house and my granddaughter was four at that time and she had no use for food even in her preschool.
[01:25:33.660 --> 01:25:43.660]  I would take her to preschool every day and they would say she will not eat and she doesn't eat. She just didn't have a use for food.
[01:25:43.660 --> 01:25:58.660]  So I said to her that particular day the caseworker was in the house, I said, sweetheart, if you will finish your lunch, I will give you cookies because I wanted her to be able to talk to the caseworker but I also didn't want her not to eat her lunch.
[01:25:58.660 --> 01:26:07.660]  They hauled me into court and that's what they took her on. They said Michigan will not allow you to bribe a child like that.
[01:26:07.660 --> 01:26:16.660]  Well, you know, first of all, I believe, I've been told that they teach that in the parenting classes of child protective service.
[01:26:16.660 --> 01:26:22.660]  They teach parents to reward the child for the things they want them to do.
[01:26:22.660 --> 01:26:40.660]  So I was told, you know, you can't bribe a child like that. So that didn't work and they basically took her away because of the food issue, okay?
[01:26:40.660 --> 01:26:55.660]  No, wait, wait, wait, wait. Something's going on here. There's absolutely no way that that was the reason. Something else was going on here.
[01:26:55.660 --> 01:26:57.660]  No, no, no, no, no. That wasn't.
[01:26:57.660 --> 01:27:04.660]  No, no, no. Wait, wait, wait. No, I'm not pointing at you. I'm saying they're lying to you.
[01:27:04.660 --> 01:27:18.660]  Well, the reason they wanted to take her was so they could terminate her because there's law that says if a child is in the care of a relative, they cannot terminate a parental right.
[01:27:18.660 --> 01:27:26.660]  Why did they want, what motivated them to terminate parental rights?
[01:27:26.660 --> 01:27:33.660]  Because she was a good sell in the adoption market. She was sold into adoption before they ever even took her away from me.
[01:27:33.660 --> 01:27:37.660]  Okay, wait a minute. Hold on. You said sold into adoption?
[01:27:37.660 --> 01:27:49.660]  What it's called. When they place children who are wrongfully taken from their families into adoption, people refer to it as the child is being sold into adoption.
[01:27:49.660 --> 01:28:02.660]  Because she sold for the federal funding from Social Security Title IV and that money comes into the state. It's right now running somewhere.
[01:28:02.660 --> 01:28:11.660]  Okay, hold on. Hold on. Are you familiar with the concept of QITAM?
[01:28:11.660 --> 01:28:13.660]  QITAM.
[01:28:13.660 --> 01:28:23.660]  Well, some people say QITAM. Some people say QITAM. From the judges and lawyers I talk to, they always say QITAM.
[01:28:23.660 --> 01:28:27.660]  Yeah, they also say Boredire in Texas.
[01:28:27.660 --> 01:28:35.660]  Yeah, I know. But I look at QUI and I want to call it QITAM. It's Q-U-I space T-A-M.
[01:28:35.660 --> 01:28:41.660]  A QITAM suit is essentially a whistleblower suit.
[01:28:41.660 --> 01:28:58.660]  You might look at QITAM. This is beginning to sound like the state is motivated to do this in order to secure federal funding.
[01:28:58.660 --> 01:29:09.660]  Oh, most certainly. Every state in America does this. $29 billion out of Social Security Title IV-E funds.
[01:29:09.660 --> 01:29:16.660]  Send me an email. There are some groups. I'll have to go look them up. It's been a long time since they've contacted me.
[01:29:16.660 --> 01:29:25.660]  But there are groups who have been postulating exactly this.
[01:29:25.660 --> 01:29:37.660]  I've had difficulty with the groups because they sound somewhat radical in the way they present their position.
[01:29:37.660 --> 01:29:44.660]  But it goes exactly to what you're talking about. There's a number of groups out here who are addressing this.
[01:29:44.660 --> 01:29:53.660]  Hang on. Randy Kelton and Deborah Stevens do a radio here with Ken Magnuson.
[01:29:53.660 --> 01:30:03.660]  I'll call it number 512-646-1984. We'll be right back.
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[01:33:01.660 --> 01:33:14.660]  You are listening to the Logos Radio Network, logosradionetwork.com.
[01:33:31.660 --> 01:33:57.660]  OK, we are back. Randy Kelton, Debra Stevens, Rule of All Radio, here with Ken Magnuson.
[01:33:57.660 --> 01:34:08.660]  We have spent a lot of time on this, but this was somewhat contentious and I think it worked out well.
[01:34:08.660 --> 01:34:13.660]  You are right. The child needs to know that everybody around her loves her enough to fight for her.
[01:34:13.660 --> 01:34:18.660]  Now we go back to your standing.
[01:34:18.660 --> 01:34:26.660]  They took the child because they were concerned that the mother could not wake up and something bad might happen.
[01:34:26.660 --> 01:34:36.660]  But then there was the grandmother there and you're maintaining that the state gains funds by taking children,
[01:34:36.660 --> 01:34:45.660]  gains federal funding by taking children from the maternal home and putting them in a home where they would have to monitor it.
[01:34:45.660 --> 01:34:49.660]  Is that correct, Sally?
[01:34:49.660 --> 01:35:11.660]  Yes. In fact, there's a video out right now on YouTube where it shows if she's a representative or a senator addressing something in Congress.
[01:35:11.660 --> 01:35:17.660]  I don't know who's supposed to answer this point. I can't tell you who.
[01:35:17.660 --> 01:35:22.660]  This is Ken. Let me interrupt for a second and ask.
[01:35:22.660 --> 01:35:26.660]  What we really need to know is what this program is.
[01:35:26.660 --> 01:35:34.660]  If you can email something to Randy with regards to who specifically put this program together, what code it's in, and so forth.
[01:35:34.660 --> 01:35:41.660]  Because I got a meeting with Congressman Mark Veasey about some other issues that are out there with regards to funds available,
[01:35:41.660 --> 01:35:54.660]  grants available for noncustodial parents that have essentially been apparently a source of corruption and embezzlement by the courts and attorneys here in Texas.
[01:35:54.660 --> 01:36:05.660]  This is right on the same issue that I need to address with Congressman Mark Veasey when I meet with him in the next couple of weeks.
[01:36:05.660 --> 01:36:24.660]  I am not without organizational fighting power because I am on the board of directors of a large organization both on Facebook and locally within the state of Michigan.
[01:36:24.660 --> 01:36:41.660]  We fight with all the organizations across the country and especially an attorney out in California that you can find on Facebook who gives all his papers.
[01:36:41.660 --> 01:36:47.660]  Hold on, Sally. You can give his name. It's okay.
[01:36:47.660 --> 01:36:51.660]  We'll have people who are interested in this subject that may want to contact him.
[01:36:51.660 --> 01:36:56.660]  Sean McMillan.
[01:36:56.660 --> 01:37:03.660]  Wait a minute. Say that again. When I talk, your voice is pushed under mine so we couldn't hear it.
[01:37:03.660 --> 01:37:05.660]  Okay. Who is the lawyer again?
[01:37:05.660 --> 01:37:08.660]  Sean McMillan.
[01:37:08.660 --> 01:37:24.660]  Okay. Sean McMillan. If anybody has had this kind of issue where a child has been taken and there doesn't appear to be any valid reason, you might want to talk to this lawyer.
[01:37:24.660 --> 01:37:41.660]  Well, he doesn't talk to you so much as he writes his papers on his Facebook site so that people can copy and follow what he does in the court when he fights for these children.
[01:37:41.660 --> 01:37:58.660]  He just got a woman's two girls back. I think the original case he won was $4.9 million which turned into, by the time it was done, turned into almost $10 million that he won for this woman.
[01:37:58.660 --> 01:38:18.660]  And I believe he's now got another case of a baby out there, but he's got several cases. And every time he has a new paper of some sort that he writes, he puts it out there for people because he's just a lawyer who is interested in helping everybody help themselves.
[01:38:18.660 --> 01:38:28.660]  He can't do it. He can't fight for other people in other states because he works in California.
[01:38:28.660 --> 01:38:41.660]  This is Ken again. I'm just still saying that you made a quote about this funding and so forth and all I need is a statute for where the funding comes from so I can look it up and have this discussion with a congressman.
[01:38:41.660 --> 01:38:45.660]  This has nothing to do with the attorney in California. Can you get that to me?
[01:38:45.660 --> 01:38:50.660]  I guess I'll answer both your questions here.
[01:38:50.660 --> 01:39:03.660]  Originally it started with Walter Mondale in the 70s and he proposed the Adoption and Safe Families Act and that was to help children who were lingering in foster care.
[01:39:03.660 --> 01:39:15.660]  They wanted to move these kids into adoption because nobody was doing it and so they put money out there for getting these kids adopted out, okay?
[01:39:15.660 --> 01:39:23.660]  When he did this, he said, I can see that the states can turn this into a business and that's exactly what has happened.
[01:39:23.660 --> 01:39:26.660]  They've done it. They've turned it into a business.
[01:39:26.660 --> 01:39:43.660]  The more children you take, the more money you're going to bring in to the states and right now it runs somewhere around 29 billion, not million, billion dollars per year going into the states for removal of children.
[01:39:43.660 --> 01:39:54.660]  Now there are also quotas that each state has to meet in order to qualify for this federal funding and these quotas increase as the years go on per state.
[01:39:54.660 --> 01:39:57.660]  I don't know how they figure the quota, but whatever.
[01:39:57.660 --> 01:40:02.660]  And so in order to meet the quotas, they have to have the kids to adopt.
[01:40:02.660 --> 01:40:04.660]  So where do they get the children?
[01:40:04.660 --> 01:40:12.660]  Well, we hear of cases all the time where the child is dead or was beaten, you know, whatever.
[01:40:12.660 --> 01:40:16.660]  And that's because CPS is not doing their job.
[01:40:16.660 --> 01:40:28.660]  They're leaving the children who need the help and they're taking the children who don't need the help because those are the ones that will sell well into adoption.
[01:40:28.660 --> 01:40:30.660]  And that's where the money is.
[01:40:30.660 --> 01:40:40.660]  And every time a child is removed, it takes about 25 different professions to work these cases.
[01:40:40.660 --> 01:40:52.660]  I mean, from the court reporters, to the judges, to the police, to the lawyers, to the guardian ad litems, the psychologists, the psychologists, the case workers, and it goes on and on and on.
[01:40:52.660 --> 01:40:56.660]  All these professions need money.
[01:40:56.660 --> 01:40:59.660]  Sally, hold on Sally.
[01:40:59.660 --> 01:41:04.660]  You said you were in contact with some groups who were addressing these issues?
[01:41:04.660 --> 01:41:06.660]  Oh, yes, all across the country.
[01:41:06.660 --> 01:41:09.660]  Our organization is very well known.
[01:41:09.660 --> 01:41:14.660]  Can you get the organizations to contact me?
[01:41:14.660 --> 01:41:18.660]  I would like to feature them on some shows.
[01:41:18.660 --> 01:41:19.660]  Oh, sure.
[01:41:19.660 --> 01:41:21.660]  That's no problem.
[01:41:21.660 --> 01:41:39.660]  In fact, our organization, we meet in a public broadcasting station and we do videos of cases and we put them out there in various avenues, YouTube, Vimeo.
[01:41:39.660 --> 01:41:41.660]  Send me links.
[01:41:41.660 --> 01:41:44.660]  We will see if we can get you some exposure.
[01:41:44.660 --> 01:41:53.660]  And this is especially fulfilling because I really give you a hard time and now I'm going to do it.
[01:41:53.660 --> 01:42:05.660]  Well, because you demonstrated exactly the kind of fortitude and the depth of understanding that we need in order to fix these situations.
[01:42:05.660 --> 01:42:09.660]  And I'm going to suggest to you talk to these groups about Kwaitam.
[01:42:09.660 --> 01:42:35.660]  Kwaitam is essentially a whistleblower statute where if these groups can show that the states are deliberately manipulating the way that they go about enforcing child protective service statutes for the purpose of securing federal funding.
[01:42:35.660 --> 01:42:37.660]  That's fraud.
[01:42:37.660 --> 01:42:39.660]  That's fraud.
[01:42:39.660 --> 01:42:51.660]  And the groups themselves, if they take this on and recover the funds that were illegally provided to the states for this purpose, they get 25%.
[01:42:51.660 --> 01:42:57.660]  If the federal government doesn't pick up the issue and adjudicate it itself.
[01:42:57.660 --> 01:43:06.660]  If the federal government picks it up, if the U.S. attorney picks it up and whatever the federal government recovers in these funds, they get 15%.
[01:43:06.660 --> 01:43:13.660]  Then they could take these funds and use them to create better conditions for the kids.
[01:43:13.660 --> 01:43:20.660]  This seems like an elegant solution to a very serious problem.
[01:43:20.660 --> 01:43:22.660]  Yes, it really is.
[01:43:22.660 --> 01:43:25.660]  Families are the basis of our society.
[01:43:25.660 --> 01:43:36.660]  And just like that, I can never say his first name, Lennon.
[01:43:36.660 --> 01:43:38.660]  Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on.
[01:43:38.660 --> 01:43:40.660]  Lennon said we'll pick that up on the inside.
[01:43:40.660 --> 01:43:41.660]  We're about to go to break.
[01:43:41.660 --> 01:43:44.660]  Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens, here with Kim Magnuson.
[01:43:44.660 --> 01:43:45.660]  We'll go to our radio.
[01:43:45.660 --> 01:43:48.660]  I'll call in number 512-646-1984.
[01:43:48.660 --> 01:43:59.660]  We'll be right back.
[01:43:59.660 --> 01:44:03.660]  You feel tired when talking about important topics like money and politics?
[01:44:03.660 --> 01:44:04.660]  Sorry.
[01:44:04.660 --> 01:44:07.660]  Are you confused by words like the Constitution or the Federal Reserve?
[01:44:07.660 --> 01:44:08.660]  What?
[01:44:08.660 --> 01:44:12.660]  If so, you may be diagnosed with the deadliest disease known today, stupidity.
[01:44:12.660 --> 01:44:18.660]  Hi, my name is Steve Holt, and like millions of other Americans, I was diagnosed with stupidity at an early age.
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[01:44:24.660 --> 01:44:28.660]  Unfortunately, that puts most Americans at risk of catching stupidity.
[01:44:28.660 --> 01:44:29.660]  But there is hope.
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[01:44:42.660 --> 01:44:50.660]  So if you or anybody you know suffers from stupidity, then you need to call 512-480-2503
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[01:46:22.660 --> 01:46:24.660]  Okay, we are back.
[01:46:24.660 --> 01:46:28.660]  Randy Kelton and Deborah Stevens here with Ken Magnuson, Rule of Law Radio.
[01:46:28.660 --> 01:46:35.660]  And Sally, we spent a lot of time with you, and it was absolutely well worth it.
[01:46:35.660 --> 01:46:39.660]  This is one of the calls that I will remember always.
[01:46:39.660 --> 01:46:47.660]  Ken emailed me so I'll know how to get in contact with you, and I'll get back with you.
[01:46:47.660 --> 01:46:49.660]  I do want to go to Mike in Connecticut.
[01:46:49.660 --> 01:46:52.660]  He's been waiting for an hour, and he's been very patient.
[01:46:52.660 --> 01:46:57.660]  But if you can, call back in next week.
[01:46:57.660 --> 01:47:02.660]  I would very much like to talk to you some more about this issue.
[01:47:02.660 --> 01:47:07.660]  Okay, just a moment.
[01:47:07.660 --> 01:47:13.660]  No, we're out of time.
[01:47:13.660 --> 01:47:17.660]  Okay, we seem to be having a little issue here.
[01:47:17.660 --> 01:47:19.660]  I'm going to have to move in.
[01:47:19.660 --> 01:47:25.660]  Send me an email, Sally, and call us next week if you can.
[01:47:25.660 --> 01:47:27.660]  I've got to go to Mike.
[01:47:27.660 --> 01:47:29.660]  He's been real patient with us.
[01:47:29.660 --> 01:47:33.660]  Mike, I'm sorry to keep you holding that long.
[01:47:33.660 --> 01:47:36.660]  What do you have for us?
[01:47:36.660 --> 01:47:44.660]  I'm equally as disturbed as you are, the last caller, so trying to get my thoughts there.
[01:47:44.660 --> 01:47:47.660]  That was difficult.
[01:47:47.660 --> 01:47:50.660]  That's like a no-win situation.
[01:47:50.660 --> 01:47:53.660]  Not good.
[01:47:53.660 --> 01:47:57.660]  I wanted to ask you, for one, your website, the Jerusalem Prudence.
[01:47:57.660 --> 01:47:58.660]  What happened to it?
[01:47:58.660 --> 01:48:02.660]  Because I was trying to find your habeas corpus.
[01:48:02.660 --> 01:48:03.660]  I finally got it back up.
[01:48:03.660 --> 01:48:10.660]  I found that there was some guy in Russia that figured out how to break into my site
[01:48:10.660 --> 01:48:16.660]  and had been loading malware on the site, but we finally figured that out.
[01:48:16.660 --> 01:48:20.660]  It should be up and working as we speak.
[01:48:20.660 --> 01:48:24.660]  Okay, because I checked it about an hour ago before I got on the phone,
[01:48:24.660 --> 01:48:28.660]  and I clicked on one link that went to some advertisement,
[01:48:28.660 --> 01:48:30.660]  so I'm not sure if you have all the bugs.
[01:48:30.660 --> 01:48:35.660]  Oh, there should be no advertisements on that site.
[01:48:35.660 --> 01:48:38.660]  All right, I'm going there.
[01:48:38.660 --> 01:48:40.660]  I'm going there now.
[01:48:40.660 --> 01:48:44.660]  Generally, oh, I went to an index.
[01:48:44.660 --> 01:48:53.660]  It looks like my index.html file must be corrupted or interrupted.
[01:48:53.660 --> 01:48:58.660]  I appreciate you telling me that.
[01:48:58.660 --> 01:48:59.660]  Oh, wait a minute.
[01:48:59.660 --> 01:49:01.660]  I just hit Jerusalemprudence.com.
[01:49:01.660 --> 01:49:12.660]  Okay, it appears as though the server is sending me to my root file looking for Jerusalem.
[01:49:12.660 --> 01:49:14.660]  There is no index.
[01:49:14.660 --> 01:49:18.660]  This is a server situation.
[01:49:18.660 --> 01:49:25.660]  When you go to Jerusalemprudence.com, it took me to a menu.
[01:49:25.660 --> 01:49:28.660]  It took me to a list of items.
[01:49:28.660 --> 01:49:32.660]  It starts with index of, cpanel.
[01:49:32.660 --> 01:49:35.660]  This is my root directory.
[01:49:35.660 --> 01:49:41.660]  If you go down that to Jerusalemprudence, it'll take you right to my site.
[01:49:41.660 --> 01:49:45.660]  I'll get a hold of my server provider tomorrow
[01:49:45.660 --> 01:49:49.660]  and find out why they're directing me to the root directory.
[01:49:49.660 --> 01:49:51.660]  See, when I set up this...
[01:49:51.660 --> 01:49:55.660]  There is no index.html file.
[01:49:55.660 --> 01:49:58.660]  I know, Ken, it's not in that folder.
[01:49:58.660 --> 01:50:02.660]  That's the root folder.
[01:50:02.660 --> 01:50:09.660]  The server should be pointing Jerusalemprudence to a subfolder.
[01:50:09.660 --> 01:50:14.660]  The subfolder is Jerusalemprudence.
[01:50:14.660 --> 01:50:19.660]  When I set up this site on the server, I'm Jerusalemprudence.com.
[01:50:19.660 --> 01:50:21.660]  That goes to the root.
[01:50:21.660 --> 01:50:26.660]  But it's supposed to be redirected to Jerusalemprudence.com slash Jerusalemprudence.
[01:50:26.660 --> 01:50:27.660]  But it's not.
[01:50:27.660 --> 01:50:31.660]  It's going to Jerusalemprudence.com, so you get all that list of all my sites.
[01:50:31.660 --> 01:50:36.660]  If you go down to Jerusalemprudence in that list, it'll take you right to the right site.
[01:50:36.660 --> 01:50:42.660]  I will talk to them tomorrow and get them to fix that.
[01:50:42.660 --> 01:50:46.660]  It's a t-shirt, right?
[01:50:46.660 --> 01:50:48.660]  Wait, say that again?
[01:50:48.660 --> 01:50:52.660]  Randy, if we had t-shirts to give out, we'd give them a t-shirt for finding this, right?
[01:50:52.660 --> 01:50:54.660]  But we don't have any t-shirts.
[01:50:54.660 --> 01:50:56.660]  Yeah, we don't have any t-shirts.
[01:50:56.660 --> 01:50:58.660]  Mike, if you'll just go...
[01:50:58.660 --> 01:51:02.660]  If you go to the list and then go down to Jerusalemprudence.com,
[01:51:02.660 --> 01:51:04.660]  it'll take you right to the site.
[01:51:04.660 --> 01:51:07.660]  And what were you looking for there?
[01:51:07.660 --> 01:51:11.660]  Well, I just wanted to see your habeas corpus because I have a question.
[01:51:11.660 --> 01:51:14.660]  Top frog on the left.
[01:51:14.660 --> 01:51:15.660]  Right.
[01:51:15.660 --> 01:51:16.660]  Yeah, I hit it before.
[01:51:16.660 --> 01:51:18.660]  I just don't know why.
[01:51:18.660 --> 01:51:20.660]  I know now why.
[01:51:20.660 --> 01:51:25.660]  But I have an issue with somebody who's incarcerated right now.
[01:51:25.660 --> 01:51:26.660]  Okay.
[01:51:26.660 --> 01:51:32.660]  That was arrested without a warrant and held over in the jail cell.
[01:51:32.660 --> 01:51:39.660]  And the next morning at arraignment, the judge determined probable cause,
[01:51:39.660 --> 01:51:46.660]  except that there was no facts before him to determine probable cause.
[01:51:46.660 --> 01:51:47.660]  Okay.
[01:51:47.660 --> 01:51:49.660]  What state are you in, Connecticut?
[01:51:49.660 --> 01:51:50.660]  Yeah.
[01:51:50.660 --> 01:51:55.660]  I probably need to get you in touch with Dan in Connecticut.
[01:51:55.660 --> 01:51:56.660]  Dan's a busy guy.
[01:51:56.660 --> 01:52:00.660]  It's hard to get ahold of him.
[01:52:00.660 --> 01:52:05.660]  Yeah, he hasn't called in a long time.
[01:52:05.660 --> 01:52:06.660]  Okay.
[01:52:06.660 --> 01:52:10.660]  Read that habeas.
[01:52:10.660 --> 01:52:17.660]  That habeas is for Texas, but essentially it's written on federal law.
[01:52:17.660 --> 01:52:20.660]  Well, it's due process.
[01:52:20.660 --> 01:52:21.660]  Yeah, it's due process.
[01:52:21.660 --> 01:52:25.660]  Due process is going to be due process essentially whatever state you're in.
[01:52:25.660 --> 01:52:32.660]  You just might have to convert those Texas cases to Connecticut cases,
[01:52:32.660 --> 01:52:38.660]  but a good portion are federal cases anyway.
[01:52:38.660 --> 01:52:40.660]  Right.
[01:52:40.660 --> 01:52:43.660]  So this is Ken chiming in.
[01:52:43.660 --> 01:52:48.660]  Yeah, the problem with the states is frequently they don't want to provide the due process.
[01:52:48.660 --> 01:52:56.660]  So all of this ripples down from federal Supreme Court cases with regards to what the state must do for due process,
[01:52:56.660 --> 01:52:58.660]  and they usually hammer the state.
[01:52:58.660 --> 01:53:03.660]  However, the states are pretty rebellious about just disregarding what they want.
[01:53:03.660 --> 01:53:12.660]  And yeah, they've actually created something in Texas called magistration as opposed to doing the examining trial.
[01:53:12.660 --> 01:53:15.660]  Randy can tell you all about that.
[01:53:15.660 --> 01:53:16.660]  Right.
[01:53:16.660 --> 01:53:19.660]  They don't have any kind of adversarial hearing here either,
[01:53:19.660 --> 01:53:25.660]  but they have to have some type of facts before them, some affidavit or a report or something,
[01:53:25.660 --> 01:53:29.660]  and there's literally nothing in every case.
[01:53:29.660 --> 01:53:30.660]  Right, Randy.
[01:53:30.660 --> 01:53:37.660]  It wasn't the prime issue of the examining trial was it's required no matter what.
[01:53:37.660 --> 01:53:39.660]  They just may call it something differently.
[01:53:39.660 --> 01:53:40.660]  Yeah.
[01:53:40.660 --> 01:53:46.660]  They call what they're doing a magistration.
[01:53:46.660 --> 01:53:55.660]  But if you type magistration into Microsoft Word, it'll put this little red line under it.
[01:53:55.660 --> 01:53:56.660]  Yeah.
[01:53:56.660 --> 01:54:06.660]  See, they made it up because what they do in that hearing is actually an arraignment.
[01:54:06.660 --> 01:54:13.660]  An arraignment is a hearing for the purpose of determining the identity of the accused and taking a plea.
[01:54:13.660 --> 01:54:15.660]  That's an arraignment.
[01:54:15.660 --> 01:54:22.660]  But an arraignment can only be held by the court of jurisdiction.
[01:54:22.660 --> 01:54:35.660]  But when a person's arrested, a police officer prepares a complaint and he files that complaint with a magistrate, not a judge, a magistrate.
[01:54:35.660 --> 01:54:37.660]  The judge has two hats.
[01:54:37.660 --> 01:54:41.660]  He has a judge's hat and a magistrate's hat.
[01:54:41.660 --> 01:54:50.660]  When a judge is made known that a crime has been committed by way of a verified criminal affidavit, that invokes his duty as a magistrate.
[01:54:50.660 --> 01:54:58.660]  His judge's hat comes off, his magistrate's hat comes on, and he must hold an examining trial.
[01:54:58.660 --> 01:55:05.660]  And in Texas, we have a whole chapter in the court of criminal procedure that tells all the stuff he must do in an examining trial.
[01:55:05.660 --> 01:55:12.660]  The first thing he has to do is read the person's rights and notify him that he has a right to counsel.
[01:55:12.660 --> 01:55:16.660]  And if he doesn't have counsel, we want to be appointed for him.
[01:55:16.660 --> 01:55:20.660]  Have you ever heard of the program Night Court?
[01:55:20.660 --> 01:55:22.660]  It was a sitcom.
[01:55:22.660 --> 01:55:24.660]  My favorite shows.
[01:55:24.660 --> 01:55:26.660]  Okay, that's New York.
[01:55:26.660 --> 01:55:29.660]  It is actually done that way.
[01:55:29.660 --> 01:55:31.660]  That is constitutional.
[01:55:31.660 --> 01:55:33.660]  That's an examining trial.
[01:55:33.660 --> 01:55:35.660]  It was dead on.
[01:55:35.660 --> 01:55:50.660]  I mean, that was a comedy, but they arrested the person and held him only for as long as it took to appoint counsel for the purpose of that particular hearing and that hearing only.
[01:55:50.660 --> 01:55:56.660]  And then they brought both parties, the arresting officer and the accused, before the judge.
[01:55:56.660 --> 01:56:06.660]  The arresting officer told his story, the accused told his story, and the judge made a determination of probable cause.
[01:56:06.660 --> 01:56:08.660]  That's how it's supposed to be done.
[01:56:08.660 --> 01:56:12.660]  New York, as far as I know, is the only state that does that.
[01:56:12.660 --> 01:56:15.660]  So what's our remedy here?
[01:56:15.660 --> 01:56:19.660]  Criminal charges against these public officials.
[01:56:19.660 --> 01:56:24.660]  Go to 18 U.S. Code 242.
[01:56:24.660 --> 01:56:28.660]  Does that include the police officer, the prosecutor, and the magistrate?
[01:56:28.660 --> 01:56:32.660]  Everybody, this one is your catch-all.
[01:56:32.660 --> 01:56:37.660]  Every state has a statute that reflects 18 U.S. Code 242.
[01:56:37.660 --> 01:56:51.660]  What 18 U.S. Code 242 says, if a public official acting under the color, meaning pretense of an official capacity, exerts or purports to exert an authority he does not expressly have
[01:56:51.660 --> 01:57:04.660]  or fails to perform a duty he is required to perform, and in the process denies a citizen in the full and free access to or enjoyment of a right, that's a federal crime.
[01:57:04.660 --> 01:57:07.660]  And every state has a similar statute.
[01:57:07.660 --> 01:57:22.660]  That means that if any public official commits malfeasance or misfeasance, they do something they're not authorized to do, or they fail to do something they're required to do, it's a crime.
[01:57:22.660 --> 01:57:24.660]  And they deny someone a right.
[01:57:24.660 --> 01:57:27.660]  So we'll look at due process.
[01:57:27.660 --> 01:57:33.660]  Anywhere they don't follow due process, that's a crime.
[01:57:33.660 --> 01:57:44.660]  It's class A misdemeanor in the feds, class A misdemeanor in Texas, a year in jail, $10,000 fines, big deal, next thing to a felony.
[01:57:44.660 --> 01:57:47.660]  We should be filing against these guys.
[01:57:47.660 --> 01:57:50.660]  Do I do that with the habeas as well?
[01:57:50.660 --> 01:57:57.660]  The habeas is just a points and authorities on due process.
[01:57:57.660 --> 01:58:05.660]  If habeas wouldn't go to this, we're out of time. I am sorry. Call back Thursday.
[01:58:05.660 --> 01:58:07.660]  We will go through habeas.
[01:58:07.660 --> 01:58:09.660]  Ken, will you be here?
[01:58:09.660 --> 01:58:12.660]  I might make myself available.
[01:58:12.660 --> 01:58:20.660]  A habeas, if he's still in jail, well, if that's a void order, that's either a habeas, or if he's still in jail, it's still a habeas.
[01:58:20.660 --> 01:58:27.660]  Mandamus is when he's out of jail, but there's still maintaining prosecution over him.
[01:58:27.660 --> 01:58:30.660]  That's a mandamus for a void order.
[01:58:30.660 --> 01:58:34.660]  OK, we're out of time. 20 seconds.
[01:58:34.660 --> 01:58:36.660]  OK, thank you all for listening.
[01:58:36.660 --> 01:58:39.660]  Sorry that we got so late, Mike.
[01:58:39.660 --> 01:58:41.660]  Call us back next week.
[01:58:41.660 --> 01:58:44.660]  Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens, Rule of Law Radio.
[01:58:44.660 --> 01:58:46.660]  Thank you all for listening.
[01:58:46.660 --> 01:58:50.660]  We'll be right back.
[01:59:16.660 --> 01:59:19.660]  We'll be right back.
[01:59:47.660 --> 01:59:51.660]  Looking for some truth? You found it.
[01:59:51.660 --> 02:00:17.660]  LogosRadioNetwork.com