ROL_2013-10-11_16k_Hr3-4.timecode

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[02:59.600 --> 03:26.240]  Well, I received my remedy today, came in a box just like they say, I accepted it for
[03:26.240 --> 03:31.320]  the first time.
[03:31.320 --> 03:41.520]  Okay, we are back, Randy Kelton, Debbie Stevens, Joe Esquivel, we're talking to Francis in
[03:41.520 --> 03:42.520]  Colorado.
[03:42.520 --> 03:49.520]  Okay, Francis, Joe wanted to, we're talking on a break, he mentioned the 120 hearings,
[03:49.520 --> 04:00.720]  and before we get to that, your bankruptcy, was it at Chapter 7 or 13?
[04:00.720 --> 04:09.400]  It was at Chapter 7 and it had to be reopened because we did not, the attorney wasn't interested
[04:09.400 --> 04:17.560]  in doing it the right way and we had to, I had a probate issue and then I also had the
[04:17.560 --> 04:23.480]  house issue, I filed the wrongful foreclosure, but even if I hadn't, I wouldn't have realized
[04:23.480 --> 04:26.920]  because I didn't surrender the case on the house and because I didn't claim the house
[04:26.920 --> 04:33.360]  properly in the Chapter 7, the bankruptcy trustee did not abandon those assets, therefore
[04:33.360 --> 04:38.280]  we had to reopen the case so that the trustee could make his decision about whether or not
[04:38.280 --> 04:45.640]  to pursue the cases on his own or abandon them back to me and thereby give me standing back.
[04:45.640 --> 04:47.840]  And what did he do?
[04:47.840 --> 04:53.640]  He did nothing until I filed a motion, thanks to Randy, to compel him to make a decision
[04:53.640 --> 05:00.820]  and so they just approved the hiring of a third party attorney to review, but just the
[05:00.820 --> 05:05.160]  inheritance cases, I don't know what's happened with the house case yet.
[05:05.160 --> 05:10.400]  And so there's a third, another attorney who's just a third party neutral who's going to
[05:10.400 --> 05:15.620]  make a decision and he gets $250 an hour and the court approved for that to be paid from
[05:15.620 --> 05:21.840]  somewhere, hopefully not by me, to review the inheritance cases and I think cover the
[05:21.840 --> 05:27.880]  trustee's rear end about what he's going to do and about those and there was no mention
[05:27.880 --> 05:32.280]  about any of the cases involving the house.
[05:32.280 --> 05:33.280]  So that's...
[05:33.280 --> 05:37.960]  So did you claim the property as unsecured?
[05:37.960 --> 05:44.040]  I claimed, yes, and I claimed that my interest in the property was a warranty deed.
[05:44.040 --> 05:49.280]  And I only found out how to do that because just before the eviction, we filed a motion
[05:49.280 --> 05:55.360]  to reinstate the stay because it was based on a fraudulent confirmation deed that Fannie
[05:55.360 --> 06:01.720]  Mae got through the 120 hearing and through new evidence that we had.
[06:01.720 --> 06:06.760]  And the judge kicked it back and denied it because I hadn't claimed any interest in the
[06:06.760 --> 06:11.840]  property on my Schedule A, thereby basically telling me what I needed to do.
[06:11.840 --> 06:18.320]  So I filed that in the day after we moved out of the house and so hopefully we're covered.
[06:18.320 --> 06:21.240]  The bankruptcy thing with the house and having gone through...
[06:21.240 --> 06:26.600]  We had already lost the house to foreclosure a year before, a little over a year before
[06:26.600 --> 06:30.560]  we filed bankruptcy, but we were still fighting it with cases.
[06:30.560 --> 06:31.560]  We had that...
[06:31.560 --> 06:32.560]  All right.
[06:32.560 --> 06:34.680]  Because here's one thing I can bring.
[06:34.680 --> 06:42.120]  Pursuant to BK Rule 3001, Subsection D as in dog, any party coming forth with a secured
[06:42.120 --> 06:49.120]  interest must be evidenced by a properly perfected lien.
[06:49.120 --> 06:57.000]  And I will tell you that Fannie Mae was not listed into public record as beneficiary or
[06:57.000 --> 07:06.800]  nominee or mortgagee, and Fannie Mae was not listed as the payee on the payee line of your
[07:06.800 --> 07:07.800]  note.
[07:07.800 --> 07:10.120]  I bet without even looking at your paperwork.
[07:10.120 --> 07:16.520]  Well, they weren't, but the reason that they were in there was the lender was just a broker,
[07:16.520 --> 07:19.600]  then they did the assignment in blank, and then in Colorado...
[07:19.600 --> 07:20.600]  I'll stop.
[07:20.600 --> 07:21.600]  All right.
[07:21.600 --> 07:22.600]  So...
[07:22.600 --> 07:23.600]  Oh, no Colorado.
[07:23.600 --> 07:24.600]  All right.
[07:24.600 --> 07:26.360]  So just so we have an understanding, okay?
[07:26.360 --> 07:32.820]  What you're saying that they're doing, you're using their words, okay?
[07:32.820 --> 07:38.360]  So when they do an assignment, they do an assignment from MERS to the servicer, all
[07:38.360 --> 07:39.360]  right?
[07:39.360 --> 07:46.040]  But now you go after them for 15 U.S.C. Chapter 47, all right, 1021 F, I believe, where the
[07:46.040 --> 07:49.440]  servicer's acting as owner.
[07:49.440 --> 07:54.400]  And the whole purpose of an assignment is to memorialize the sale of the tangible promissory
[07:54.400 --> 07:55.400]  note.
[07:55.400 --> 07:58.240]  To pause the sale.
[07:58.240 --> 08:06.080]  So if they did an assignment from MERS to the servicer, then they should have done negotiation
[08:06.080 --> 08:14.520]  transfer and sale of the instrument as well, and the servicer should be named on the promissory
[08:14.520 --> 08:16.160]  note.
[08:16.160 --> 08:22.000]  But they can't because they sold the obligation to Fannie Mae years ago, and all they sold
[08:22.000 --> 08:25.040]  was the obligation.
[08:25.040 --> 08:29.840]  And that was the right to receive future economic payments.
[08:29.840 --> 08:36.640]  And the account debtor is the party that created that intangible obligation.
[08:36.640 --> 08:39.000]  So you don't have a contract with Fannie Mae.
[08:39.000 --> 08:45.640]  Fannie Mae is not listed in public record, and yet they come and they pretend that they
[08:45.640 --> 08:50.300]  are the qualified bidder.
[08:50.300 --> 08:56.360]  So when they're on the church steps or the courthouse steps, nobody bids against them.
[08:56.360 --> 08:58.400]  Everybody's scared to death.
[08:58.400 --> 09:04.600]  Yet everybody else is supposed to have a $10,000 cashier's check, and within 72 hours after
[09:04.600 --> 09:09.440]  bidding on property, they need to have the balance.
[09:09.440 --> 09:13.960]  Fannie Mae never does it, and yet Fannie Mae is not named in public record.
[09:13.960 --> 09:22.640]  So you know, the trustee doing the sale has a fiduciary responsibility that is being breached
[09:22.640 --> 09:25.280]  in my opinion.
[09:25.280 --> 09:28.760]  And if you were to look at some of the articles that I've written the last couple of weeks,
[09:28.760 --> 09:36.640]  I get into that in a lot of detail because nobody is challenging the right.
[09:36.640 --> 09:40.680]  What has Fannie Mae purchased?
[09:40.680 --> 09:46.680]  Fannie Mae, if you have purchased a note, then your name needs to be named on the payee line.
[09:46.680 --> 09:54.600]  And you must be named into public record in a timely fashion pursuant to 9312.
[09:54.600 --> 09:59.920]  Because that secured interest is temporarily perfected, Francis, it's only perfected for
[09:59.920 --> 10:01.960]  20 days.
[10:01.960 --> 10:07.560]  On day 21, by operation of law, it becomes an unsecured obligation.
[10:07.560 --> 10:13.800]  And if one were to even get into the PEP report, which came out in October of 2011, in which
[10:13.800 --> 10:22.220]  it was stated that one cannot physically possess the secured interest, what one must do is
[10:22.220 --> 10:26.000]  to perfect the tangible.
[10:26.000 --> 10:33.960]  And they have, again, a time period of 20 days of this temporary perfection.
[10:33.960 --> 10:41.000]  After on day 21, Humpty Dumpty falls off the wall and cannot be put back together again.
[10:41.000 --> 10:46.400]  The purpose of the assignments is they are trying to create an audit trail so somebody
[10:46.400 --> 10:52.520]  can look at the documents and say, oh my, look at this, look what they've done.
[10:52.520 --> 10:56.360]  But if you were to go back into the Fannie Mae requirements that they have for their
[10:56.360 --> 11:02.400]  lenders and I've got the manuals and I read the manuals and go into their custodian of
[11:02.400 --> 11:12.960]  documents, what they state to the public and what they say to the lender are two different
[11:12.960 --> 11:13.960]  items.
[11:13.960 --> 11:19.360]  And I know that the judges don't want to hear this because when I was testifying in Denver
[11:19.360 --> 11:25.520]  at a Rule 120 hearing, one of the judges had told me, Mr. Esquivel, you're five minutes
[11:25.520 --> 11:28.240]  away from practicing law without a license in my courtroom.
[11:28.240 --> 11:33.800]  Now, the only thing he told me is I had five minutes left to practice whatever I was doing
[11:33.800 --> 11:37.800]  and I told him there was an attorney across the room sitting at a table that if somebody
[11:37.800 --> 11:39.440]  needed the attorney, they could call the attorney.
[11:39.440 --> 11:41.680]  I was not an attorney.
[11:41.680 --> 11:47.400]  So they don't like you and I understand that, but keep on fighting and I'm proud of what
[11:47.400 --> 11:48.400]  you're doing.
[11:48.400 --> 11:49.960]  Well, thank you.
[11:49.960 --> 11:55.880]  Well, we have a public trustee and Fannie Mae didn't step up in purchase.
[11:55.880 --> 12:02.520]  They made the servicer go up and so the servicer purchased or was given it for nothing because
[12:02.520 --> 12:07.800]  they posed as the lender, just like you said, and then they assigned their confirmation
[12:07.800 --> 12:12.480]  deed, the servicer assigned a confirmation deed to Fannie Mae, who then ran to the bankruptcy
[12:12.480 --> 12:18.000]  court and used that to get a relief from stay.
[12:18.000 --> 12:25.480]  Well, I'll tell you what, I mean, for me, I reopened my case because I had Bank of America
[12:25.480 --> 12:31.080]  making accusations and I did a motion to reopen my case and a motion to sanction Bank of America
[12:31.080 --> 12:39.080]  for coming forth and they violated the injunction, which was the order of my discharge because
[12:39.080 --> 12:45.400]  I discharged the debt on my house on the tangible instrument, the promissory note, because it
[12:45.400 --> 12:49.120]  was an unsecured obligation.
[12:49.120 --> 12:55.920]  And what happens is when you discharge the debt on the tangible instrument, there is
[12:55.920 --> 13:02.360]  now no debt to attach your security instrument to, all right?
[13:02.360 --> 13:07.680]  Go back to Carpenter v. Long in 1872, the mortgage cannot survive a moment without the
[13:07.680 --> 13:15.000]  debt that exists, period, it is a nullity, it is not void, it is not voidable, it is
[13:15.000 --> 13:19.000]  a nullity, it ceases to exist.
[13:19.000 --> 13:25.480]  And while they're going to tell you, Francis, that a lien can survive a bankruptcy, correct,
[13:25.480 --> 13:29.920]  a properly secured lien.
[13:29.920 --> 13:38.960]  And you record a lien in Colorado, all right, by filing with the county recorder's office.
[13:38.960 --> 13:50.280]  And if you sell the note along with the intangible payment obligation, all right, you do a release
[13:50.280 --> 13:55.360]  of a lien and an assignment of lien.
[13:55.360 --> 13:59.400]  And that's what must be done in tandem at all times.
[13:59.400 --> 14:04.760]  However, that is not what takes place.
[14:04.760 --> 14:06.300]  So you're doing a good fight.
[14:06.300 --> 14:07.300]  Just keep it up.
[14:07.300 --> 14:13.040]  Well, you know what, let me ask you, though, because it looks like they're going to re-close
[14:13.040 --> 14:16.680]  this bankruptcy up in 29 days.
[14:16.680 --> 14:23.920]  Because I did go and amend my Schedule B, and I put down our obligation, I put the number
[14:23.920 --> 14:27.640]  down once, but I listed all three entities that have claimed.
[14:27.640 --> 14:32.960]  The original lender, which was basically a broker, the servicer, and Fannie Mae, and
[14:32.960 --> 14:38.240]  I listed them with that one debt, but I only added it in one time, but I put the debt in
[14:38.240 --> 14:40.240]  there every single time.
[14:40.240 --> 14:44.640]  And then when I was discharged, that should have discharged everything, and that's what
[14:44.640 --> 14:46.600]  you're telling me, correct?
[14:46.600 --> 14:47.600]  Correct.
[14:47.600 --> 14:52.400]  And then I would file a motion, change a secure creditor status to an unsecured.
[14:52.400 --> 14:53.400]  They were unsecured.
[14:53.400 --> 14:55.600]  I put them on B, as unsecured.
[14:55.600 --> 15:01.960]  I know what I'm saying is filing a motion, changing secure creditor status to an unsecured.
[15:01.960 --> 15:05.600]  Hit them with a double whammy.
[15:05.600 --> 15:11.200]  Not only put it on the schedules, Schedule F is in Frank, all right?
[15:11.200 --> 15:16.920]  But by filing a motion, you're moving the court.
[15:16.920 --> 15:20.920]  You're seeking a judicial determination on that one specific issue.
[15:20.920 --> 15:21.920]  I see.
[15:21.920 --> 15:27.080]  As Randy says time and time again, they have no standing.
[15:27.080 --> 15:31.040]  Let them, make them prove they have standing.
[15:31.040 --> 15:33.120]  Make the burden of proof.
[15:33.120 --> 15:38.000]  You're saying to the courts, they don't have standing.
[15:38.000 --> 15:43.400]  This is why, pursuant to Colorado statutory requirements of law, and you're going to go
[15:43.400 --> 15:50.160]  through the Colorado requirements in order to have standing, okay?
[15:50.160 --> 15:52.800]  What was to be done, all right?
[15:52.800 --> 16:02.660]  So for Colorado, all right, there's still 3203, there's still 7501.
[16:02.660 --> 16:07.360]  So they're still applicable.
[16:07.360 --> 16:12.120]  You just need to fight them regarding that.
[16:12.120 --> 16:20.760]  For you, you're going to look under, let's see, it's going to be CRSA 4-3-203D.
[16:20.760 --> 16:31.640]  Correct, and then 4-3-203C.
[16:31.640 --> 16:36.280]  And you need to understand that, all right, exactly.
[16:36.280 --> 16:42.080]  So when you're going to explain to the judge why negotiation did not take place.
[16:42.080 --> 16:46.680]  And we can get into that a little bit when we come back after the break.
[16:46.680 --> 16:51.680]  This is Joe Esquivel, Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens, Rule of Law Radio.
[16:51.680 --> 16:55.360]  Our number is 512-646-1984.
[16:55.360 --> 17:00.680]  We'll be right back.
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[19:12.840 --> 19:18.680]  Well don't let nothing get to you, only the father can't deliver you, don't let bad
[19:18.680 --> 19:38.160]  people hurt you, and trust it and get behind you, Norman, my friend, and all of your children.
[19:38.160 --> 20:00.920]  Okay, we are back, Randy Kelton, Debra Stevens, Rule of Law Radio, and we're talking to Francis
[20:00.920 --> 20:02.400]  in Colorado.
[20:02.400 --> 20:07.600]  Okay, Francis, have we addressed everything for you?
[20:07.600 --> 20:14.400]  I have one other question, so basically I need to get this motion in ASAP, because they're
[20:14.400 --> 20:17.880]  going to look to get this thing closed up, so I'll get that done.
[20:17.880 --> 20:21.400]  But can you just answer a quick question, is a tort letter the same as a letter of intent
[20:21.400 --> 20:22.400]  to sue?
[20:22.400 --> 20:23.400]  Exactly.
[20:23.400 --> 20:24.400]  Okay.
[20:24.400 --> 20:34.640]  That's precisely what it is, it under UCC is notice and opportunity to cure.
[20:34.640 --> 20:35.640]  Okay.
[20:35.640 --> 20:41.080]  You're giving them notice that you have been harmed, and giving them opportunity to
[20:41.080 --> 20:42.080]  cure.
[20:42.080 --> 20:48.520]  The courts do not want you to use the courts as the remedy of first resort, but the remedy
[20:48.520 --> 20:54.560]  of last resort, and they want you to exercise your administrative remedies, and the only
[20:54.560 --> 21:00.240]  one you need to exercise is notice and opportunity.
[21:00.240 --> 21:07.480]  Okay, so we got snowed out on the thing with agency, that my husband was supposed to argue
[21:07.480 --> 21:13.360]  over the telephone on Monday in South Dakota with his mom, so they've reset the hearing
[21:13.360 --> 21:19.760]  for a 30-minute hearing on the 21st, and so he's, of course, just wanted to make sure
[21:19.760 --> 21:25.160]  that agency is enough to kick the entire case out, and it is, isn't it?
[21:25.160 --> 21:27.160]  Absolutely.
[21:27.160 --> 21:31.880]  If I sent you my agency folder... No, sir.
[21:31.880 --> 21:36.420]  I need to do that.
[21:36.420 --> 21:44.400]  Agency may not be established out of the mouth of the agent.
[21:44.400 --> 21:50.560]  It must be established out of the mouth of the principal, so if they don't have the agent
[21:50.560 --> 21:54.800]  there, if they don't have the bank there, if they only have lawyers, lawyers can't establish
[21:54.800 --> 22:01.640]  agency, or if they don't have a verified document, a contract with the bank, then they have an
[22:01.640 --> 22:02.640]  established agency.
[22:02.640 --> 22:03.640]  Okay.
[22:03.640 --> 22:08.080]  Well, this is my mother-in-law who lacked mental capacity at the time to exercise a
[22:08.080 --> 22:13.560]  legal document, and they're trying to keep all the medical records out of the record
[22:13.560 --> 22:20.040]  because they're trying to... It's pretty bad, so my next question was, should I file
[22:20.040 --> 22:31.040]  the letter of intent to sue this cat for malpractice made before the 21st into sanctions on you?
[22:31.040 --> 22:32.040]  That's a good question.
[22:32.040 --> 22:38.680]  Why don't you just bar-greet him instead, notice to him that you're going to sue him
[22:38.680 --> 22:41.040]  while he's in another suit.
[22:41.040 --> 22:49.240]  They may try to force you to join them, and they may take that as an attempt at undue
[22:49.240 --> 22:50.240]  influence.
[22:50.240 --> 22:51.240]  Okay.
[22:51.240 --> 22:52.240]  I won't do that then.
[22:52.240 --> 22:53.240]  How about sanctions?
[22:53.240 --> 22:57.920]  Oh, you can always ask for sanctions.
[22:57.920 --> 22:58.920]  Lawyers hate sanctions.
[22:58.920 --> 22:59.920]  Okay.
[22:59.920 --> 23:00.920]  I'll get that done.
[23:00.920 --> 23:09.320]  The problem with sanctions is the judge can pretty well charge any sanctions he feels
[23:09.320 --> 23:10.320]  like charging.
[23:10.320 --> 23:11.320]  Okay.
[23:11.320 --> 23:15.200]  So, that makes some nuts.
[23:15.200 --> 23:16.200]  Okay.
[23:16.200 --> 23:19.440]  I've got my agency folder in your Skype.
[23:19.440 --> 23:20.440]  Oh, thank you.
[23:20.440 --> 23:21.440]  Yeah.
[23:21.440 --> 23:25.120]  Sanctions and bar-agreements, that's great fun, and then once... As soon as the case
[23:25.120 --> 23:32.760]  is over, when the case is over, if you lose, whatever you lose, you can sue the lawyer
[23:32.760 --> 23:33.760]  for.
[23:33.760 --> 23:34.760]  Okay.
[23:34.760 --> 23:42.640]  Well, we were... I sent you a Skype, and my plan was to move the court, or we rehearsed
[23:42.640 --> 23:48.440]  in Galen, my husband, to move the court to dismiss with prejudice and also to award damages
[23:48.440 --> 23:54.080]  and to reimburse my mother-in-law for everything that they have lawyered out of her.
[23:54.080 --> 24:00.240]  We figure it's somewhere between $50,000 and $60,000, and from backing into what they've
[24:00.240 --> 24:06.360]  liquidated out of her investments in order to pay themselves, and then we were going
[24:06.360 --> 24:09.800]  to ask for that in triplicate because it was fraud.
[24:09.800 --> 24:10.800]  Good.
[24:10.800 --> 24:11.800]  Okay.
[24:11.800 --> 24:12.800]  All right.
[24:12.800 --> 24:17.600]  Well, I will let you go and let you talk to others, and I really appreciate all of you
[24:17.600 --> 24:18.600]  guys.
[24:18.600 --> 24:19.600]  Thank you.
[24:19.600 --> 24:20.600]  Okay.
[24:20.600 --> 24:22.040]  Thank you, Ms. Francis.
[24:22.040 --> 24:25.040]  You have been a good pupil.
[24:25.040 --> 24:27.600]  I do not want you after me.
[24:27.600 --> 24:28.600]  Okay.
[24:28.600 --> 24:29.600]  Thank you.
[24:29.600 --> 24:33.920]  Now, we're going to go to Mike in Texas.
[24:33.920 --> 24:36.160]  Hello, Mr. Mike.
[24:36.160 --> 24:38.200]  What are you up to now?
[24:38.200 --> 24:43.520]  Oh, well, I guess maybe a little bit of a news report.
[24:43.520 --> 24:48.440]  Back in the end of September, I put a finding in facts and security, a fine conclusion of
[24:48.440 --> 24:55.480]  law into the federal court, and apparently, the local federal judge thought it in his
[24:55.480 --> 25:03.440]  power to secret this document from the court, refusing to answer any of the inquiries, and
[25:03.440 --> 25:09.360]  I just took their own comments, such as the defendant's attorneys even declared their
[25:09.360 --> 25:18.720]  operating in color of law, and he declares these as frivolous and baseless accusations.
[25:18.720 --> 25:25.880]  Mike, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
[25:25.880 --> 25:34.320]  I mean, I did things like writing federal rules for Procedure 9, where the court must
[25:34.320 --> 25:35.320]  issue a warrant.
[25:35.320 --> 25:39.920]  If any one of these events is coming, the information establishes probable cause, believe
[25:39.920 --> 25:46.680]  the defense has been committed, and I do not think he liked that one at all.
[25:46.680 --> 25:53.440]  Right after I take their comment about how they had admitted operating in color of law
[25:53.440 --> 25:58.440]  when they arrested me, because they don't really want to explain this to whoever is
[25:58.440 --> 26:05.760]  giving them authority for these warrantless checkpoints, I cite all the nice things going
[26:05.760 --> 26:12.240]  along with it towards what color of law is under 242 and other case laws and stuff like
[26:12.240 --> 26:13.240]  that.
[26:13.240 --> 26:23.040]  So I guess I have been approved in federal court from this case already, so I'm just
[26:23.040 --> 26:31.760]  preparing my records excerpts and my telebrief to file in there, and he's been denying me
[26:31.760 --> 26:36.280]  a lot of things because of him not claiming that I'm indigent while the state of Texas
[26:36.280 --> 26:41.920]  just declared me indigent, so I'm going to file that up into the courts.
[26:41.920 --> 26:49.960]  So that should, I presume it's going to help me move forward on a couple of things.
[26:49.960 --> 26:56.400]  People trying to get evidence, they refuse to get that for me, they just deny, but since
[26:56.400 --> 27:02.080]  I've been declared indigent, now I'm going to open up, I've already written into 17 pages
[27:02.080 --> 27:09.320]  right now, I've just got some tweaking to do on it, but it's the plaintiff's original
[27:09.320 --> 27:11.160]  petition for writ of mandamus.
[27:11.160 --> 27:18.280]  So under subsection H of the Texas Open Records Act, under 5-by-T, it says just take it to
[27:18.280 --> 27:22.240]  the district court and you can sue for the information, so that's kind of what I plan
[27:22.240 --> 27:32.680]  to do and see if I can get some of the stuff that they've been withholding.
[27:32.680 --> 27:37.000]  These guys, it sounds like they're really squirming, and for those of you who aren't
[27:37.000 --> 27:44.680]  familiar with Mike, Mike is in Austin and was arrested at the airport for having a bottle
[27:44.680 --> 27:54.120]  of water with him, and out of that has grown an incredible monster, and there is a good
[27:54.120 --> 28:05.080]  chance that Mike can be the one to change everything, because everything they've done,
[28:05.080 --> 28:12.320]  everything the other side has done has did nothing but made it worse, and the thing they
[28:12.320 --> 28:20.840]  did that was the worst is they grossly underestimated Mike.
[28:20.840 --> 28:27.200]  Mike has been all over these folks, and now he's after, the judge he's talking about
[28:27.200 --> 28:31.960]  now is the local federal judge, Judge Sparks.
[28:31.960 --> 28:37.960]  This is the judge that donated a half a million dollars to the Bush campaign, and they created
[28:37.960 --> 28:42.040]  a judge position for him here in Austin.
[28:42.040 --> 28:49.280]  So he bought and paid for it, so how do you expect this judge, who's one of the wealthiest
[28:49.280 --> 29:00.560]  judges in the country, to recoup his half a million dollars over judge's salary?
[29:00.560 --> 29:07.720]  We don't expect him to be a good guy, and Mike may be the one to get him bumped out
[29:07.720 --> 29:08.720]  of office.
[29:08.720 --> 29:15.000]  Well, I think the part of this that he may have disliked the most is that I included
[29:15.000 --> 29:20.880]  the letter from Rosemary Lemberg, the local district attorney, saying she's going to look
[29:20.880 --> 29:28.480]  into Mike's criminal affidavits that I filed.
[29:28.480 --> 29:31.800]  And then as soon as she does that, they go after her?
[29:31.800 --> 29:34.480]  I have no one's good idea.
[29:34.480 --> 29:39.040]  Yeah, that's what it seems like, that's very possible.
[29:39.040 --> 29:42.240]  Okay, hang on, we're about to go to break.
[29:42.240 --> 29:50.840]  This is Randy Kelton W. Stevens, Joe Esquivel, View of La Radio, our call in number 512-646-1984.
[29:50.840 --> 29:51.840]  Give us a call.
[29:51.840 --> 29:55.920]  We're going into the last hour and a half, so it builds up toward the end.
[29:55.920 --> 29:58.920]  We'll be right back.
[29:58.920 --> 30:05.320]  Smile, Big Brother wants a photo to remember you by.
[30:05.320 --> 30:10.720]  Why bother with iris scanning and other biometrics that take time, coercion, or cooperation when
[30:10.720 --> 30:12.760]  a Kodak moment could do the trick?
[30:12.760 --> 30:17.080]  I'm Dr. Catherine Albrecht, and I'll tell you more in just a moment.
[30:17.080 --> 30:18.680]  Privacy is under attack.
[30:18.680 --> 30:22.280]  When you give up data about yourself, you'll never get it back again.
[30:22.280 --> 30:27.040]  And once your privacy is gone, you'll find your freedoms will start to vanish too.
[30:27.040 --> 30:32.120]  So protect your rights, say no to surveillance, and keep your information to yourself.
[30:32.120 --> 30:34.800]  Privacy, it's worth hanging on to.
[30:34.800 --> 30:39.080]  This public service announcement is brought to you by Startpage.com, the private search
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[31:00.000 --> 31:02.440]  three-dimensional biosignature.
[31:02.440 --> 31:07.040]  This biosignature is a headshot that can be used to track the person pretty much anywhere.
[31:07.040 --> 31:09.480]  That's troubling, but it gets worse.
[31:09.480 --> 31:13.120]  The picture can be snapped from so far away, you might never know what happened.
[31:13.120 --> 31:14.680]  This is our country.
[31:14.680 --> 31:16.840]  We have a right to say no to these technologies.
[31:16.840 --> 31:21.880]  Join me in calling on lawmakers to outlaw the identification and tracking of law-abiding
[31:21.880 --> 31:22.880]  citizens.
[31:22.880 --> 31:30.760]  I'm Dr. Catherine Albrecht, more news and information at CatherineAlbrecht.com.
[31:30.760 --> 31:36.120]  This is Building 7, a 47-story skyscraper that fell on the afternoon of September 11th.
[31:36.120 --> 31:41.560]  The government says that fire brought it down, however, 1,500 architects and engineers concluded
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[33:23.440 --> 33:50.320]  Okay, we are back.
[33:50.320 --> 34:03.520]  Okay, Mike, what is, what do you have that's working now?
[34:03.520 --> 34:07.560]  What's the next thing you expect to occur in your case?
[34:07.560 --> 34:11.440]  Well, I have two appellate briefs.
[34:11.440 --> 34:12.440]  I have one written.
[34:12.440 --> 34:17.040]  I've got to write another, but since I know how to do it, that's not a big deal.
[34:17.040 --> 34:22.800]  I've already half written my records excerpt, and that's, I've had the other records excerpt
[34:22.800 --> 34:25.000]  already written and filed.
[34:25.000 --> 34:32.760]  Right now, as far as against the City of Austin, they're waiting on them ruling on my indigency,
[34:32.760 --> 34:37.960]  and they're actually giving the other side a great deal of time, so every day, you know,
[34:37.960 --> 34:42.400]  they were only supposed to be given about 30 days to respond, they've been given at
[34:42.400 --> 34:47.480]  least an extra two to three months to favor the rule today.
[34:47.480 --> 34:52.000]  So I'm going to send up that paperwork to my indigency, hoping that...
[34:52.000 --> 34:54.600]  Wait a minute, wait a minute.
[34:54.600 --> 34:56.960]  Who is responding to what?
[34:56.960 --> 35:00.640]  I thought the state of Texas granted you your indigency status.
[35:00.640 --> 35:04.720]  State of Texas just recently granted that to me.
[35:04.720 --> 35:09.800]  They like to grant it and take it away while the courts do, just depending on if they like
[35:09.800 --> 35:12.020]  my arguments or not.
[35:12.020 --> 35:17.800]  But now, you know, independent authority has said I'm indigent, so I'm going to send that
[35:17.800 --> 35:18.800]  up Monday.
[35:18.800 --> 35:25.200]  I just received that today, and hopefully I can get them to move on them filing in the
[35:25.200 --> 35:26.200]  City of Austin.
[35:26.200 --> 35:27.680]  Now, the City prosecuted me...
[35:27.680 --> 35:29.240]  Okay, wait a minute, hold on.
[35:29.240 --> 35:36.120]  Them filing City of Austin, I hate pronouns.
[35:36.120 --> 35:37.120]  Who's filing what?
[35:37.120 --> 35:43.080]  Isn't the City of Austin supposed to be filing an appellate brief?
[35:43.080 --> 35:49.680]  City of Austin is supposed to be filing a rebuttal, and then I rebut the rebuttal.
[35:49.680 --> 35:57.360]  And the Fifth Circuit is allowing extra time to the City of Austin to file the rebuttal
[35:57.360 --> 36:00.080]  pending my indigency ruling.
[36:00.080 --> 36:07.080]  Well, I've already made an application, and now I'm going to submit evidence of an independent
[36:07.080 --> 36:08.840]  body's already declared me indigent.
[36:08.840 --> 36:14.160]  So hopefully that would cut off the time for the City of Austin, and they would have to
[36:14.160 --> 36:15.160]  respond.
[36:15.160 --> 36:18.160]  And now it's starting.
[36:18.160 --> 36:24.720]  Okay, are they responding to your appeal or responding to something to do with your indigency?
[36:24.720 --> 36:25.720]  Responding to my appeal.
[36:25.720 --> 36:26.720]  Good, good, good.
[36:26.720 --> 36:36.040]  So, your appeal could begin to, could actually get before these judges before too long.
[36:36.040 --> 36:42.280]  And what do you expect that to take six months for them to make a ruling?
[36:42.280 --> 36:49.840]  Yeah, they were supposed to have ruled it back in May, and they just have given the
[36:49.840 --> 36:51.440]  city really unfair advantage.
[36:51.440 --> 36:53.760]  I only had 40 days to write my appellate brief.
[36:53.760 --> 36:59.040]  But right now, just to write the rebuttal to my brief, they've had, you know, about
[36:59.040 --> 37:00.040]  six months.
[37:00.040 --> 37:04.360]  They're only supposed to be given 30 days.
[37:04.360 --> 37:14.600]  Have you filed an objection to this time as it's denying you in your right to seek redress
[37:14.600 --> 37:19.640]  because of the extensive time they're giving them?
[37:19.640 --> 37:24.800]  I was trying to think of exactly the way to say that, or argue that.
[37:24.800 --> 37:31.000]  I have noted that to the court, and they just respond back that that is their rule and their
[37:31.000 --> 37:34.200]  procedure, and when they get around to it, they'll decide.
[37:34.200 --> 37:40.640]  But hopefully, with evidence, it should, you know, I can then, you know, encourage them
[37:40.640 --> 37:41.640]  to move a little faster.
[37:41.640 --> 37:45.560]  I mean, I could write a petition for Rhythm and Damage to the Supreme Court to ask them
[37:45.560 --> 37:53.400]  to move on, but I've got a lot of writing to do, and I'm just going to kind of let that
[37:53.400 --> 37:55.240]  ride a little bit.
[37:55.240 --> 38:00.840]  I think they're just giving the other side a lot of extra time because they have a difficult
[38:00.840 --> 38:02.280]  issue ahead of them.
[38:02.280 --> 38:07.600]  The city prosecuted me without an information, and I think that's going to be very difficult
[38:07.600 --> 38:10.560]  for them to get around, independent of everything else.
[38:10.560 --> 38:17.560]  Yeah, and then he's worried about you bar grieving them every time they trip up on something.
[38:17.560 --> 38:18.560]  Oh, absolutely.
[38:18.560 --> 38:21.800]  Well, or file a criminal affidavit.
[38:21.800 --> 38:31.560]  Back in May, it's kind of interesting, Sparks gave an order to the clerks not to accept
[38:31.560 --> 38:36.560]  any more of my filing, so I'm supposed to serve all the closing parties, so I tried
[38:36.560 --> 38:41.360]  to serve them, and they sent U.S. Marshals, and they were going to try to arrest me just
[38:41.360 --> 38:43.440]  because I wanted to file documents in the courts.
[38:43.440 --> 38:49.760]  So I had a witness come by, and he witnessed it, and then afterwards, you know, I collected
[38:49.760 --> 38:53.720]  people's business cards to give them to me, and I thought criminal affidavits, he installed
[38:53.720 --> 38:58.720]  them and put them in the docket.
[38:58.720 --> 39:01.680]  Oh, you did get them in the docket.
[39:01.680 --> 39:07.160]  If they're denying you access to the court, that's what we talked about earlier on outlawry.
[39:07.160 --> 39:08.160]  Absolutely.
[39:08.160 --> 39:13.880]  Well, I accused them of sedition, and the respect I get from the clerks now, they don't
[39:13.880 --> 39:15.440]  have a peek to say about me.
[39:15.440 --> 39:16.440]  They are so polite.
[39:16.440 --> 39:19.440]  And, it's interesting, Sparks...
[39:19.440 --> 39:22.360]  Odd how that pids to get you respect.
[39:22.360 --> 39:28.120]  Well, you know, Sparks has again issued another order saying, do not accept anything else
[39:28.120 --> 39:29.120]  from this guy.
[39:29.120 --> 39:35.120]  And so I keep filing stuff in, and I had to test them, so I went and tested it, and they
[39:35.120 --> 39:36.920]  accept every document I put in.
[39:36.920 --> 39:41.560]  So they're not listening to the judge.
[39:41.560 --> 39:44.520]  They realize that you'll come after them.
[39:44.520 --> 39:46.440]  You don't care what the judge said.
[39:46.440 --> 39:48.400]  So this is good.
[39:48.400 --> 39:50.520]  This is how we fix these things.
[39:50.520 --> 39:54.280]  So that's the city of Austin.
[39:54.280 --> 39:57.160]  Travis County is coming along.
[39:57.160 --> 39:58.160]  I've been accepted.
[39:58.160 --> 40:06.520]  I have a good part of my power brief written, a good part of my record that's here written.
[40:06.520 --> 40:13.440]  And right now, getting declared indigent is going to help move things along, I hope, a
[40:13.440 --> 40:15.960]  little further, a little further, a little faster.
[40:15.960 --> 40:17.880]  Also, I'm not stopping.
[40:17.880 --> 40:25.080]  I'm taking up a suit against Travis County for them denying me evidence.
[40:25.080 --> 40:29.560]  In all the pleadings, the county attorneys like to still accuse me of all these things,
[40:29.560 --> 40:33.840]  and they've denied me evidence to vindicate myself.
[40:33.840 --> 40:39.320]  And so I'm going to open up a mandana suit against them for information under subsection
[40:39.320 --> 40:42.200]  H of Texas Open Records Act.
[40:42.200 --> 40:44.800]  So I've got about 17 pages written.
[40:44.800 --> 40:45.800]  I think it's a good one.
[40:45.800 --> 40:51.760]  It's actually one I formed from an attorney general document.
[40:51.760 --> 40:57.360]  So I think it's probably more similar than what they were typically used to.
[40:57.360 --> 41:02.080]  So hopefully, I can start to get some of the things that they've been denying me all the
[41:02.080 --> 41:03.080]  way through.
[41:03.080 --> 41:09.720]  And that's going to make it more difficult also.
[41:09.720 --> 41:13.240]  This is the one thing I keep saying.
[41:13.240 --> 41:17.840]  The people who win are the ones who never quit.
[41:17.840 --> 41:20.640]  How long have you been fighting this issue, Mike?
[41:20.640 --> 41:22.680]  Oh, man, way too long.
[41:22.680 --> 41:26.560]  Every day, it's like another millstone.
[41:26.560 --> 41:34.320]  But yeah, since June 2010, and I had no idea that they would fight this hard.
[41:34.320 --> 41:39.320]  But you know, at least I perceive the light at the end of the tunnel.
[41:39.320 --> 41:40.320]  Hopefully, it's not a train.
[41:40.320 --> 41:45.720]  But I do perceive a light at the end of the tunnel, because I don't think that the Fifth
[41:45.720 --> 41:51.920]  Circuit can just rule against me too harshly.
[41:51.920 --> 41:56.600]  I mean, I've had seen plenty of documents in the past where they have.
[41:56.600 --> 42:02.400]  But I've got to believe that there are other avenues, even outside the Supreme Court.
[42:02.400 --> 42:05.640]  I think that's what they're counting on, is that I will get frustrated not to be able
[42:05.640 --> 42:07.360]  to get on the Supreme Court.
[42:07.360 --> 42:12.720]  But there's federal grand juries, there's UN grand juries, and I'm trying other things
[42:12.720 --> 42:14.600]  with postal documents.
[42:14.600 --> 42:18.640]  I'm trying to put over through a postage stamp, and I get them cancelled out.
[42:18.640 --> 42:22.200]  And so I'm hoping that it invokes the authority of the UPU.
[42:22.200 --> 42:27.920]  And that might give me also another venue, which is out of their political venue and
[42:27.920 --> 42:28.920]  influence.
[42:28.920 --> 42:37.480]  And hopefully, technically, these people could be unparalleled or above the Supreme Court.
[42:37.480 --> 42:44.920]  So one of the things that does annoy me in this whole process is that I found this Barts,
[42:44.920 --> 42:46.920]  and so I could go to the Fifth Circuit.
[42:46.920 --> 42:50.680]  And the Fifth Circuit or the Supreme Court could rule in my favor, and then it comes
[42:50.680 --> 42:53.160]  back in front of Judge Barts.
[42:53.160 --> 42:59.200]  And he's not obligated to take their opinion.
[42:59.200 --> 43:07.520]  You really need to try to get him disqualified, and you have a number of criminal accusations
[43:07.520 --> 43:09.560]  against him, don't you?
[43:09.560 --> 43:10.560]  I do.
[43:10.560 --> 43:16.240]  And even in the last finding facts and conclusions along, basically, where he's secreting.
[43:16.240 --> 43:21.520]  And I included the letter from Rosemary Lumber, so that you'd be even looking into it, which
[43:21.520 --> 43:26.160]  I would have thought would have given enough influence that he would have at least looked
[43:26.160 --> 43:27.160]  at it.
[43:27.160 --> 43:31.840]  And he did, which is why he answered when he said he would not answer any more of my
[43:31.840 --> 43:32.840]  documents.
[43:32.840 --> 43:33.840]  And it took a long time to answer, too.
[43:33.840 --> 43:34.840]  It took nine days.
[43:34.840 --> 43:35.840]  Usually, he responds off the top.
[43:35.840 --> 43:36.840]  OK.
[43:36.840 --> 43:37.840]  Hang on.
[43:37.840 --> 43:38.840]  We're about to go to break.
[43:38.840 --> 43:47.520]  This is Randy Kelton, Debra Stevens, Joe Esquivel, Rule of Law Radio, and we're talking to Mike
[43:47.520 --> 43:48.520]  in Texas.
[43:48.520 --> 43:49.520]  Gary, we see you there.
[43:49.520 --> 43:50.520]  We will take you next.
[43:50.520 --> 43:51.520]  Give us a call.
[43:51.520 --> 43:52.520]  We're getting late in the show.
[43:52.520 --> 43:53.520]  It tends to build up toward the end.
[43:53.520 --> 43:57.520]  We'll be right back.
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[44:37.000 --> 44:43.240]  That's 512-264-4043, naturespureorganics.com.
[44:43.240 --> 44:47.560]  Don't forget to like us on Facebook for information on events and our products.
[44:47.560 --> 45:01.280]  Naturespureorganics.com.
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[46:20.680 --> 46:44.520]  Thank you.
[46:44.520 --> 46:54.760]  button. I give my message out to anyone in shoutin' distance. I hope for bravery and
[46:54.760 --> 47:02.280]  against slavery to show his resistance. First I'm crawlin', then I'm walkin', then I start
[47:02.280 --> 47:15.280]  strivin'. I'm just so glad to make my livin' pushin' button. Okay, we are back. Randy
[47:15.280 --> 47:23.000]  Kelton, Deborah Stevens, Rue de Blanc Radio. We're talking to Mike in Texas, and I apologize
[47:23.000 --> 47:29.880]  if I'm chuckling. Miss Francis that was on earlier just sent me a Skype. On my Wednesday
[47:29.880 --> 47:38.400]  night show I told about a book I have from 1849, a Cherokee Indian doctor, and he had
[47:38.400 --> 47:49.040]  a cure for asthma. Eat 20 cloves of garlic. Miss Francis just sent me a Skype, she just
[47:49.040 --> 47:59.960]  ate 10. He said something's been bitin' or this here, 10 cloves of garlic could scare
[47:59.960 --> 48:12.360]  that off. But he did 20 cloves of garlic if you've got asthma, you know that's the inflammation
[48:12.360 --> 48:20.600]  of your lung tissue. Man that garlic could dry it up until it breaks. Okay, go ahead
[48:20.600 --> 48:30.480]  Mike. Well, I don't know, that's probably mostly it I suppose. Every day is a battle.
[48:30.480 --> 48:37.400]  So you have, okay, you didn't mention, okay the only thing on the county, Mike has two
[48:37.400 --> 48:43.480]  issues. He fought the city over this class C misdemeanor and they pulled all kinds of
[48:43.480 --> 48:52.120]  really idiot shenanigans. And then he was going to be a court watcher and the county
[48:52.120 --> 49:00.640]  apparently was gonna, they used the county to try to get back at him and the county accosted
[49:00.640 --> 49:06.000]  him going into the courthouse and they charged him with pointing a deadly weapon at him which
[49:06.000 --> 49:12.840]  was a digital recorder. And so he's going after them as well. So this really turned
[49:12.840 --> 49:22.120]  into a massive fight. And you have both of them in appeal. One of them I take it is in
[49:22.120 --> 49:31.280]  the state and the, okay where are these in appeal at, Mike? Are both in the fed? Both
[49:31.280 --> 49:37.080]  of them in the Fifth Circuit. Okay, so here's both of them in the federal court before the
[49:37.080 --> 49:43.240]  Fifth Circuit. We were talking on the break, Mike. What I suspect is going to happen is
[49:43.240 --> 49:48.400]  the Fifth Circuit, they're likely to deny a lot of your appeal but it's going to kick
[49:48.400 --> 49:53.960]  something back. They're going to kick it back down to the courts and when they do they're
[49:53.960 --> 50:01.240]  going to give the city and the county an opportunity to come to you and make a deal. That's what
[50:01.240 --> 50:11.080]  is most likely how this is going to shake out. And when they make the deal then we need
[50:11.080 --> 50:20.040]  somebody else to come back and file a quietam action against the individuals involved in
[50:20.040 --> 50:28.200]  this where they acted inappropriately and cost the city a large amount of money to defend
[50:28.200 --> 50:42.440]  them from acting inappropriately. You like that idea, Mike? You sue them to collect all
[50:42.440 --> 50:53.080]  that money back. We did not authorize you guys to commit these criminal acts and your
[50:53.080 --> 51:00.480]  committing these criminal acts resulted in this massive lawsuit. We want all our money
[51:00.480 --> 51:11.640]  back. This is what I was kind of addressing when the show started. When these guys start
[51:11.640 --> 51:19.480]  screwing up it starts getting really serious pretty fast and to get somebody like Mike
[51:19.480 --> 51:25.640]  that doesn't let go of them it just kept getting worse and worse and I don't think these guys
[51:25.640 --> 51:32.440]  believe how bad this has got. This is exactly the kinds of things we need to do to get our
[51:32.440 --> 51:41.640]  country back, to get the courts back. It goes to my primary purpose. My primary purpose
[51:41.640 --> 51:47.760]  is to place every judge in the country in a position such that when he steps up behind
[51:47.760 --> 51:54.960]  the bench and looks out across the bar at the gallery I want him wondering which one
[51:54.960 --> 52:00.080]  of those lousy scoundrels out there are waiting for me to render a ruling so he can run down
[52:00.080 --> 52:09.240]  to the district attorney and try to get me arrested. When these judges have that perspective
[52:09.240 --> 52:15.100]  when they're wondering which one of these guys coming before me is going to be another
[52:15.100 --> 52:27.280]  Mike Handel. It will change their attitudes considerably. I can virtually assure you that
[52:27.280 --> 52:35.520]  they are already struggling to keep another Mike Handel from rising out of the city of
[52:35.520 --> 52:44.200]  Austin municipal courts into another monster like they're dealing with now. So he's already
[52:44.200 --> 52:53.800]  been helpful in helping all of us get treated more fairly. So thank you Mike.
[52:53.800 --> 52:57.200]  Oh thank you Randy.
[52:57.200 --> 53:06.600]  I absolutely appreciate your tenacity and oh yeah and I do have to call Mike a liar.
[53:06.600 --> 53:13.040]  Mike walks around he's real timid and he's always saying he's sorry. He gets the idea
[53:13.040 --> 53:21.800]  that he's afraid of everything. And then I was down he came with me to JP's office in
[53:21.800 --> 53:27.160]  Austin to JP court and I was going in and they told me I couldn't take my cell phone
[53:27.160 --> 53:32.080]  in. I said yeah I can. Oh no no you can't take your cell phone in. We have a court rule
[53:32.080 --> 53:37.680]  against cell phones. So that's okay. I got a constitution, a statute and a Supreme Court
[53:37.680 --> 53:44.680]  case that says I can so you can wipe your behind with that rule. Well while they're
[53:44.680 --> 53:50.520]  manhandling me and pushing me toward the door I look out of the corner of my eye and there
[53:50.520 --> 53:57.840]  is Mike right up in the middle of him. And I'm thinking you lying SOB. He was not the
[53:57.840 --> 54:05.400]  least bit afraid of these scoundrels. He was right up in their faces. So when they got
[54:05.400 --> 54:13.880]  a hold of Mike they got a hold of a sleeper. And this is really what we need. We need to
[54:13.880 --> 54:22.640]  sneak up on them. And really give them a working over. And Mike's a lot better at it than me.
[54:22.640 --> 54:30.680]  He's like a bulldog. Once he gets a hold of him he is not turning loose. And probably
[54:30.680 --> 54:34.080]  about the time they think this is over when they make a deal with Mike that's when we
[54:34.080 --> 54:43.040]  come back with the quiet tam and it just gets worse. So thanks Mike. Keep it up. Okay. Do
[54:43.040 --> 54:55.540]  you have any? Go ahead. Okay. Do you have anything else for us Mike? Okay. Thank you.
[54:55.540 --> 55:01.600]  Thank you. Now we're going to go to Gary in New York. Hello Gary. What do you have for
[55:01.600 --> 55:09.960]  us tonight? I have a question. Excuse me. You are familiar with a guy by the name of
[55:09.960 --> 55:18.880]  Rod Klass right? Oh yeah. I'm familiar with Rod Klass. He makes a couple of claims that
[55:18.880 --> 55:26.640]  one of which is that for us to be in an administrative court we have to be a plaintiff in that court
[55:26.640 --> 55:37.400]  person to the Administrative Procedure Act. Is that correct? Rod Klass is about two feet
[55:37.400 --> 55:50.840]  above my head in that regard. I haven't, he's speaking to a, okay, administrative court
[55:50.840 --> 55:58.680]  is going to depend on what administrative court you're moving into. Administrative courts
[55:58.680 --> 56:11.680]  are generally instituted by departments. There's not just an administrative court as such. You
[56:11.680 --> 56:17.840]  have in the counties you have the county commissioner's court which essentially is an administrative
[56:17.840 --> 56:27.880]  court where you can bring issues. You can, the Department of Public Safety will have
[56:27.880 --> 56:39.480]  an administrative procedure that you can go to. Rod is talking about, if I'm right on
[56:39.480 --> 56:44.880]  this and I haven't talked to him in a long time, he's talking about the administrative
[56:44.880 --> 56:52.560]  to federal court in D.C. Not necessarily. One of the things he mentioned from way back
[56:52.560 --> 56:57.520]  when, maybe he changed his position on this, is that say a traffic court is an administrative
[56:57.520 --> 57:14.680]  court. No it's not. It's criminal. In some states a traffic violation or a city ordinance
[57:14.680 --> 57:24.120]  is not criminal, it's civil. But even civil is not an administrative court. Now there
[57:24.120 --> 57:31.400]  are in some places requirements for an administrative court. If it is not an administrative court
[57:31.400 --> 57:40.760]  then why is the judge called an administrative law judge in a traffic court? What traffic
[57:40.760 --> 57:49.360]  court? I've never heard of a traffic court judge called an administrative law judge.
[57:49.360 --> 57:56.320]  This is going to be, some state may have that, this is going to be specific, but in every
[57:56.320 --> 58:01.640]  state that I've been in the judges have already always been municipal judges or justices of
[58:01.640 --> 58:11.080]  the east and that is not an administrative law judge. Hang on, we are about to go to
[58:11.080 --> 58:17.400]  our talk of the hour break. We'll pick this up on the other side. This is an interesting
[58:17.400 --> 58:23.040]  discussion and it would probably be a good idea to have Rod Klass on the show. He is
[58:23.040 --> 58:31.480]  a long time researcher and he would probably bury all of us. He is one of the ones that
[58:31.480 --> 58:36.840]  always comes up with good stuff. It would probably take me a week to get my head wrapped
[58:36.840 --> 58:41.800]  around it. But hang on, we'll pick this up on the other side. Randy Kelton, David Stevens,
[58:41.800 --> 58:50.400]  we'll have our radio, our call in number 512-646-1984. We'll be right back.
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[01:00:03.200 --> 01:00:07.640]  You're listening to the Liberty Beat, your daily source for Liberty news and activist
[01:00:07.640 --> 01:00:14.880]  updates online at thelibertybeat.com. I'm Brian Hagan with your Liberty Beat for Friday,
[01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:25.560]  October 11th, 2013. Gold open today at $1,287. Silver at $21.51 and Bitcoin is trading at
[01:00:25.560 --> 01:00:33.400]  $126.80. Support for the Liberty Beat comes from Brave New Books, Austin's only brick
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[01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:05.820]  And now, the news. The State Department released a statement yesterday discussing the recent
[01:01:05.820 --> 01:01:12.480]  spilling of 20,600 barrels of oil in northwestern North Dakota. The oil spilled from a Tesoro
[01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:17.720]  Corporation pipeline and is said to be the largest in state history. The oil has been
[01:01:17.720 --> 01:01:27.120]  stopped and no water sources were contaminated. And we are live. That can be said for the
[01:01:27.120 --> 01:01:33.160]  Indiegogo campaign, now launched for Sovereign Living the Reality Show, which focuses on
[01:01:33.160 --> 01:01:38.080]  the self-sustaining lifestyle of the Blush family, including John Bush and Katherine
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[01:01:54.120 --> 01:01:59.160]  that's not dependent on centralized institutions. Three episodes are complete, while more are
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[01:02:53.800 --> 01:03:00.800]  October 11th, 2013. Be sure to check out the website at thelibertybeat.com.
[01:03:23.800 --> 01:03:30.800]  We are back, Randy Kelton, Debra Stevens, Joe Esquivel, and I'm going to be singing
[01:03:54.800 --> 01:04:01.800]  on the radio, and we're talking to Gary in New York. One of the things I struggle with
[01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:11.400]  are misconceptions, and not to denigrate one class at all, because, you know, we have a
[01:04:13.080 --> 01:04:20.080]  lot of legal researchers out there, and a lot of them, I believe, preach a lot of patriot
[01:04:20.080 --> 01:04:27.080]  mythology, and I get real excited about that. But Rod Klaas is of a different cut. He talks
[01:04:31.560 --> 01:04:38.560]  law, and he does some serious research, and I think sometimes he's so far ahead of most
[01:04:38.560 --> 01:04:45.560]  of us, that sometimes he doesn't give us as clear a referential index as to what he's
[01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:55.000]  speaking of. And to say that all traffic courts are administrative courts, that's not something
[01:04:55.000 --> 01:05:02.000]  I could see Rod Klaas doing, because that would just be patently incorrect. It would
[01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:11.360]  depend on what jurisdiction you're in, whether it be administrative or not.
[01:05:11.360 --> 01:05:18.360]  No, no, no. That's not what he said. What he said was, in any administrative court,
[01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:25.360]  for you to appear there, you must be, for a citizen to appear there, you must be a plaintiff.
[01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:35.440]  You cannot be a defendant in an administrative court. What I'm saying is, here in New York,
[01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:43.520]  traffic courts are administrative courts. So following the train of thought here, one
[01:05:43.520 --> 01:05:49.920]  of the defenses I thought could be used, maybe, if that is true, if what he said is true,
[01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:54.920]  is that I can't really appear there because I am appearing there as a defendant, so to
[01:05:54.920 --> 01:06:00.920]  speak, and I cannot. Of course, that takes, if it is an administrative court, if not,
[01:06:00.920 --> 01:06:04.440]  then none of this applies.
[01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:11.440]  How do you get to a traffic court in New York being an administrative court?
[01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:18.440]  Well, a number of years ago, I had a ticket that I had to, I was found guilty on and when
[01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:28.280]  I tried to appeal, a lawyer I had at the time got a paper and on the paper from, I don't
[01:06:28.280 --> 01:06:33.480]  know how he obtained it, on the bottom, it said, administrative law judge decision, and
[01:06:33.480 --> 01:06:38.480]  just based on those words, administrative law judge, it's an administrative court.
[01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:45.480]  You can't do that. If you go to the IRS and they have a tax court and you could go to
[01:06:48.720 --> 01:06:55.720]  their tax court, it's not a court. It is an administrative hearing. It is not a court
[01:06:56.960 --> 01:07:03.960]  at all. That's just what they call it. And they call it that deliberately to make us
[01:07:03.960 --> 01:07:10.960]  think it was actually a court. So, the fact that they call this judge an administrative
[01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:20.440]  law judge does not necessarily mean that the meaning they assign to the term administrative
[01:07:22.240 --> 01:07:26.160]  is the same meaning you're assigning to the term administrative.
[01:07:26.160 --> 01:07:33.160]  Fair enough. Let's say a parking violations bureau. It's basically run by a department
[01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:37.800]  here in New York, by a department of finance.
[01:07:37.800 --> 01:07:44.800]  Yeah, that's different. That would probably is administrative because parking tickets
[01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:51.800]  are just, there's a fine and they're different than everything else. All crimes, they'd have
[01:07:59.880 --> 01:08:06.880]  to witness you committing it. But parking, that's like law by ownership. I mean, I mean
[01:08:06.880 --> 01:08:13.880]  guilt by ownership. This is a very argument people are bringing about red light cameras.
[01:08:15.720 --> 01:08:22.720]  They're similar to the parking issue where they cite you with committing the act simply
[01:08:25.080 --> 01:08:32.080]  because your vehicle that's registered to you happens to be in this location. They have
[01:08:32.080 --> 01:08:39.080]  no idea if you put it there or not. But they're saying in an administrative procedure, they
[01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:47.000]  can say this is yours and you have a duty to be responsible for it. And the automobile
[01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:53.200]  committed a crime, you're responsible for it or committed a violation, not necessarily
[01:08:53.200 --> 01:08:59.080]  crime and you have to pay the fee. That is different. We can't talk about traffic, I
[01:08:59.080 --> 01:09:06.080]  mean parking tickets in the same venue as traffic citations. Does that make sense?
[01:09:10.080 --> 01:09:17.080]  With a parking ticket, would it be a good argument or a good defense to say that since
[01:09:17.280 --> 01:09:23.520]  it is an administrative court, I cannot really be in that court since as you come in with
[01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:27.920]  a ticket to fight it, you are sort of like a defendant. I mean, you're not officially
[01:09:27.920 --> 01:09:32.920]  classified as a defendant because they don't have a point of view.
[01:09:32.920 --> 01:09:39.920]  Okay. We're working from a presupposition or from this statement of fact from Rod Klass
[01:09:45.240 --> 01:09:52.240]  that in order to be in an administrative court, you have to be the plaintiff. How does he
[01:09:52.240 --> 01:09:58.600]  get there? He says that's what it states in the Administrative Procedure Act, which is
[01:09:58.600 --> 01:10:05.600]  a federal act from what I understand. So this applies to a federal administrative
[01:10:05.600 --> 01:10:11.600]  court. This would not necessarily apply to a state.
[01:10:11.600 --> 01:10:18.600]  Here is my sort of like a second addendum to the question. It goes to what you're saying
[01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:25.600]  now. It could only apply in the federal court. Is it not true that there are no states in
[01:10:27.480 --> 01:10:34.480]  fact and in law, that it's all federal? No. I've heard those arguments. They all go into
[01:10:34.480 --> 01:10:41.480]  the 14th Amendment and the parent bankruptcy in 1865. There may not be states. All states
[01:10:51.240 --> 01:10:58.240]  may actually be federal reserves, but that is not a usable distinction. The reason it
[01:10:58.240 --> 01:11:05.240]  is not a usable distinction is because the states act like they're states, and they act
[01:11:08.960 --> 01:11:15.960]  like they're passing their own laws, and they act like they enforce them.
[01:11:16.200 --> 01:11:23.200]  Right. But they can act one way, but if they are in fact no state in fact or in law, if
[01:11:23.200 --> 01:11:30.200]  that could be proven. One of the people that I think talks about it with more conclusive
[01:11:32.640 --> 01:11:36.760]  proof than anyone else that I've heard is a guy by the name of Louis Ewing. Have you
[01:11:36.760 --> 01:11:43.760]  heard of him? No. Never heard of him. But I've heard a number
[01:11:43.760 --> 01:11:50.760]  of people argue these issues, and frankly my concern is, and the same concern I have
[01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:58.760]  with one class. Several years ago I looked at his Foreign Sovereigns Act, and he was
[01:12:00.120 --> 01:12:07.120]  trying to claim that everything was under the maritime and everything went to the Foreign
[01:12:07.120 --> 01:12:14.120]  Sovereigns Act. Well, when I looked at his case law, I was not happy at all. I got to
[01:12:15.880 --> 01:12:22.880]  his issue. Now, he was different than Tim Turner and Sam Kennedy and some of these others
[01:12:22.880 --> 01:12:27.880]  were. John Keating, when I looked at the case law, the case law didn't have anything to
[01:12:27.880 --> 01:12:33.880]  do with the cases, with the issues they were citing.
[01:12:33.880 --> 01:12:40.880]  A lot of classes did, but his reference to the Fafelka didn't get me to his conclusions.
[01:12:49.360 --> 01:12:56.360]  From that case, about three layers deep from that case, I got to his conclusion. But not
[01:12:56.360 --> 01:13:03.360]  from the case law he cited. I was a little perturbed about that, but he was still on
[01:13:03.880 --> 01:13:09.360]  point. He didn't just pull the case out of the air the way it appeared that Gene Keating
[01:13:09.360 --> 01:13:16.360]  did. Keating's was the worst. Tim Turner pulled these cases and just made these outrageous
[01:13:16.360 --> 01:13:22.640]  claims from him. I looked at the case, cannot figure out how they got there. Then there's
[01:13:22.640 --> 01:13:29.640]  one other issue I keep coming upon with these folks. I'm an engineer and all I know how
[01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:38.680]  to do is connect dots together. When I start walking down their arguments, I tend to always
[01:13:38.680 --> 01:13:45.680]  wind up with a couple of dots they didn't exactly connect, where they make a unsupported
[01:13:47.840 --> 01:13:54.840]  statement of fact or law. They just assume something's so and they keep going. When I
[01:13:55.760 --> 01:14:01.760]  come to one of those places, I have to say, whoa, hold on here. I can't get past this
[01:14:01.760 --> 01:14:08.760]  place. I had someone on the air who was saying that the courts, the judge didn't have any
[01:14:09.360 --> 01:14:16.360]  authority because Texas was a corporation. I said, oh, okay, Texas is a corporation.
[01:14:16.840 --> 01:14:23.840]  If Texas is a corporation, where are the articles in the corporation? Where's the charter? Oh,
[01:14:23.920 --> 01:14:29.920]  you don't understand. It's not that kind of thing. It's not that kind of thing.
[01:14:29.920 --> 01:14:35.480]  You don't understand. It's not that kind of a corporation. Oh, it's not, huh? Corporations
[01:14:35.480 --> 01:14:42.480]  of term of art has very specific meaning. It's either a corporation or it's not a corporation.
[01:14:42.760 --> 01:14:49.760]  He got real upset with me and hung up. He was calling Texas something, but he used the
[01:14:50.520 --> 01:14:55.320]  word corporation. Then when I tried to get to the definition of the word corporation,
[01:14:55.320 --> 01:15:02.320]  I never could get one out of it. I know where the Texas is a corporation. I know where the
[01:15:02.360 --> 01:15:09.360]  charter was. I knew where it was when I asked him. It's in Delaware. That corporation didn't
[01:15:09.840 --> 01:15:16.200]  have anything to do with the judge. Oh, the judge may be an officer in the corporation,
[01:15:16.200 --> 01:15:27.200]  so what? He's probably an officer in the corporation when he hires clerks, buys toilet paper, pays
[01:15:27.200 --> 01:15:34.200]  janitors, all of these administrative things they have to do to keep the courts running.
[01:15:34.800 --> 01:15:40.200]  But when he steps up behind that bench, he doesn't do that under his capacity as a corporate
[01:15:40.200 --> 01:15:47.200]  officer. He does that under his capacity as a constitutional elected judge. It's a different
[01:15:49.560 --> 01:15:56.560]  authority. You can't just, with a broad brush, just paint them all together. I know I'm kind
[01:15:58.280 --> 01:16:05.280]  of being vague in general, but I don't think either one of us understand Rod's argument
[01:16:05.280 --> 01:16:12.280]  well enough to be able to attach these together. Frankly, what I do primarily is remedy. I
[01:16:18.160 --> 01:16:25.160]  have never seen anybody get remedy using administrative procedures. Pastor Massad hosts Winston Shroud
[01:16:25.160 --> 01:16:32.160]  and George Gordon. He gave Sam Adams his start. He says he's never seen anybody achieve remedy
[01:16:35.880 --> 01:16:42.880]  with the administrative process. Hang on. This is Randy Kelton, David Stevens, Joe Esquivel,
[01:16:42.880 --> 01:16:49.880]  Rule of Law Radio, our call to number 512-646-1984. We'll be right back. Through advances in technology,
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[01:19:24.440 --> 01:19:31.440]  Thanks for watching.
[01:19:54.440 --> 01:20:01.440]  Okay, we are back. Randy Kelton, Debra Stevens, Joe Esquivel. We're talking through Gary
[01:20:01.600 --> 01:20:08.600]  in New York. Okay, Gary, I guess I've kind of stated my position on that. So let's go
[01:20:09.120 --> 01:20:16.120]  back to how the New York traffic code becomes administrative as opposed to a criminal or
[01:20:16.120 --> 01:20:23.120]  civil procedure. Well, I'm not sure of that, but I'm pretty sure the parking is, I'm almost
[01:20:25.320 --> 01:20:32.320]  100% certain the parking violations are in an administrative court in New York.
[01:20:36.400 --> 01:20:43.400]  I would tend to agree. That's probably the case because it can't be criminal because
[01:20:43.400 --> 01:20:49.760]  in order for it to be criminal, you'd have to accuse someone of committing a crime and
[01:20:49.760 --> 01:20:56.760]  you would have to have a fact witness that a person committed a crime. You can't have
[01:20:57.560 --> 01:21:04.560]  an automobile commit a crime. So they can't get to criminal. They might be able to get
[01:21:04.560 --> 01:21:11.560]  to civil, but then again, someone would have to show harm and unless the state passed a
[01:21:14.640 --> 01:21:21.640]  law that said parking in a particular place without paying the parking fee is harm and
[01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:31.000]  I could see where they could get there, but even then they couldn't assess a fee. They'd
[01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:36.000]  have to sue you and get a civil determination.
[01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:43.000]  Speaking of these fees, the penalties that they, fines actually that they put on these
[01:21:43.720 --> 01:21:49.120]  parking tickets because when they put a parking ticket on your windshield, it already has
[01:21:49.120 --> 01:21:55.320]  a fee on it. Now, being that it's already has a fee on it, is a parking ticket in fact
[01:21:55.320 --> 01:22:02.320]  a bill of fines and penalties, which is also, which could then be classified as a bill of
[01:22:02.320 --> 01:22:03.320]  attainder?
[01:22:03.320 --> 01:22:10.320]  No, it's not really. You're not already adjudicated guilty. Do you always give an opportunity
[01:22:15.520 --> 01:22:18.920]  to object to the assessment?
[01:22:18.920 --> 01:22:25.920]  Nevertheless, the ticket on the back of it states that should we not receive an answer
[01:22:26.400 --> 01:22:33.400]  from you within 10 days, within 30 days, an additional $10 penalty will be added.
[01:22:34.360 --> 01:22:41.360]  Okay. But see for it to be a bill of attainder, it would have to be an adjudication of guilt.
[01:22:41.360 --> 01:22:48.360]  It would have to be an adjudication of guilt. What they're giving you is a notice and opportunity.
[01:22:53.000 --> 01:22:56.880]  This is what we talked about early in the show about like a tort letter. This is a tort
[01:22:56.880 --> 01:23:03.880]  letter. This is saying you have harmed us in this amount. You have, you can, you can
[01:23:03.880 --> 01:23:08.880]  go ahead.
[01:23:08.880 --> 01:23:12.280]  Notice an opportunity. It's so good that you said that because there was a case in New
[01:23:12.280 --> 01:23:19.280]  York City where a gentleman got a ticket, which he never actually received on his windshield.
[01:23:19.280 --> 01:23:26.280]  And I forgot his name. I think Steve Cole. And it went all the way up to, I believe the
[01:23:26.280 --> 01:23:33.280]  appellate division. So they find him guilty by default since he didn't answer. They mail
[01:23:37.920 --> 01:23:43.920]  you a letter home after about 30 days, packing on an additional $10 and then an additional
[01:23:43.920 --> 01:23:49.520]  $10. And after a few times, they just find you guilty by default if you don't respond.
[01:23:49.520 --> 01:23:54.600]  So until all that, and then he declared a lawsuit against them or he started appealing
[01:23:54.600 --> 01:23:59.200]  it and he lost, I believe the initial appeal, but maybe he did not remember, but eventually
[01:23:59.200 --> 01:24:06.200]  he won. He dismissed the ticket and he won a claiming that there is no provision in law
[01:24:06.680 --> 01:24:13.680]  that allows them to serve him by mail, that he must be served in person of this post parking
[01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:22.760]  violation or I forgot one was in person or one other way, but there was no provision
[01:24:22.760 --> 01:24:28.960]  of him being served by mail and he somehow prevailed. Just reading that case a couple
[01:24:28.960 --> 01:24:29.680]  of times.
[01:24:29.680 --> 01:24:36.680]  Okay. Okay. That would be a fun thing to do, but that would have nothing to do with an
[01:24:37.040 --> 01:24:44.040]  administrative procedure or administrative court. That would have to do with court procedures.
[01:24:44.360 --> 01:24:49.100]  Right, right. In this case, you already sort of, you already know, this is already going
[01:24:49.100 --> 01:24:54.400]  sort of, sort of on the merits. He, the administrative, that's just another thing I was asking about
[01:24:54.400 --> 01:24:58.440]  Rod Classie. So he made that assertion numerous times on his show that in order for us to
[01:24:58.440 --> 01:25:04.960]  be an administrative court, we must be plaintiffs in that court.
[01:25:04.960 --> 01:25:11.960]  That I would like to see how he gets there because it is at odds with most of the administrative
[01:25:11.960 --> 01:25:18.960]  courts that I've seen. So he may be speaking to a specific type of administrative court
[01:25:19.840 --> 01:25:26.840]  and I would think that if I'm going after an agency and I have an issue with an agency,
[01:25:27.160 --> 01:25:34.160]  they generally have an administrative procedures act to address a issue with the agency. And
[01:25:34.160 --> 01:25:41.160]  in that case, you would always be the one pursuing the issue. So you would be the plaintiff.
[01:25:45.080 --> 01:25:52.080]  So this will go to how Rod Class defines an administrative court. And I suspect if we
[01:25:53.400 --> 01:25:59.400]  heard his definition directly, then this issue would be clear.
[01:25:59.400 --> 01:26:05.960]  It would be awesome if you can have him on your show.
[01:26:05.960 --> 01:26:11.960]  I have put out an offer a couple of times, but the problem may be that he knows me. He's
[01:26:11.960 --> 01:26:18.960]  earned my reputation. No, probably not because I'm never harsh to any of my guests. So he's
[01:26:18.960 --> 01:26:25.960]  just, I needed to talk to him over some issues, some specific things that he was doing and
[01:26:29.000 --> 01:26:31.080]  I was never able to get a hold of it.
[01:26:31.080 --> 01:26:36.080]  There's a number of documents that he provides to his listeners. Which one were you referring
[01:26:36.080 --> 01:26:39.800]  to that you had to go three levels deep to see his point?
[01:26:39.800 --> 01:26:46.800]  Oh, this was his argument on the Foreign Sovereign Immunity Act.
[01:26:46.800 --> 01:26:50.800]  But the name of the document, is that the Quorum Novus?
[01:26:50.800 --> 01:26:57.800]  No, I don't remember that name of that document. I don't remember if that was it or not. And
[01:26:58.360 --> 01:27:04.720]  one of the things you have to understand that I do, I am being an engineer, I am very specific.
[01:27:04.720 --> 01:27:11.720]  I don't skip over things. So I have to connect all of the dots. And when someone's talking
[01:27:11.720 --> 01:27:18.320]  about a complex issue, I generally have lots of dots to connect together. So for me, things
[01:27:18.320 --> 01:27:25.320]  get pretty deep pretty fast. But that was just my way of complimenting Rod Klass. And
[01:27:26.200 --> 01:27:33.200]  I've never heard any, nobody's ever said that Rod Klass preaches patriot mythology. Not
[01:27:33.200 --> 01:27:40.200]  like Tim Turner and some of these other guys. Sam Kennedy and a few of the others.
[01:27:41.320 --> 01:27:48.320]  Okay. My last point, I have a question about the Federal Reserve Act. Apparently, the lead
[01:27:48.920 --> 01:27:55.920]  section 16, I'm not mistaken, states that Federal Reserve notes were supposed to be
[01:27:55.920 --> 01:28:02.920]  used as an internal currency or medium of exchange between the Federal Reserve banks.
[01:28:05.680 --> 01:28:12.680]  It's USC 411. United States Code section 411.
[01:28:14.680 --> 01:28:18.680]  Right. Is that correct? Is that a correct assertion?
[01:28:18.680 --> 01:28:23.680]  Wait a minute. That can't be all of it. Which United States Code?
[01:28:23.680 --> 01:28:28.680]  12. I'm sorry. USC 12 section 411.
[01:28:28.680 --> 01:28:33.680]  Okay. What is the question concerning that?
[01:28:33.680 --> 01:28:40.680]  Question is, if that is the case, if it's not being interpreted out of context or used
[01:28:40.680 --> 01:28:47.680]  out of its scope, would that not be a valid argument to use and just, so to speak, admit
[01:28:54.080 --> 01:28:59.640]  to the guilt and say a traffic citation or a parking violation and say, yes, yes, Your
[01:28:59.640 --> 01:29:05.080]  Honor, I'm guilty as charged. Now, how do I pay you? And then basically say that I am
[01:29:05.080 --> 01:29:10.400]  not obligated to use that currency. In fact, I cannot be compelled to use that currency
[01:29:10.400 --> 01:29:16.400]  to overpayment it. Why not?
[01:29:16.400 --> 01:29:20.560]  Because it was not designed for my use. It doesn't matter what it was designed for.
[01:29:20.560 --> 01:29:27.560]  The legislature declared it legal tender. They declared it legal tender. That's the
[01:29:28.160 --> 01:29:34.400]  only thing they've declared legal tender. And the legislature declared, no matter what
[01:29:34.400 --> 01:29:38.840]  this was originally created for, they said this was legal tender and it's good for all
[01:29:38.840 --> 01:29:45.840]  debts. Hang on. Hang on. This is Randy Kelton, Deborah Stevens, Root of Law Radio. Our call
[01:29:45.840 --> 01:30:06.840]  in number 512-646-1984. We will be right back on the other side.
[01:30:15.840 --> 01:30:23.840]  We'll be right back.
[01:30:45.840 --> 01:30:53.840]  We'll be right back.
[01:31:15.840 --> 01:31:22.840]  We'll be right back.
[01:31:45.840 --> 01:31:52.840]  We'll be right back.
[01:32:15.840 --> 01:32:22.840]  We'll be right back.
[01:32:45.840 --> 01:32:52.840]  We'll be right back.
[01:33:15.840 --> 01:33:22.840]  We'll be right back.
[01:33:45.840 --> 01:33:52.840]  We'll be right back.
[01:33:52.840 --> 01:33:59.840]  We'll be right back.
[01:33:59.840 --> 01:34:06.840]  We'll be right back.
[01:34:06.840 --> 01:34:35.840]  Okay. We are back. Randy Kelton. Deborah Stevens. Root of Law Radio. Keep this
[01:34:35.840 --> 01:34:42.960]  keep forgetting this guy named Joe and Joe Esquivel and we are talking to Gary
[01:34:42.960 --> 01:34:50.600]  in New York and you bring up a good point. Federal Reserve notes to be used
[01:34:50.600 --> 01:34:55.440]  at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve system
[01:34:55.440 --> 01:35:02.160]  for the purpose of making advances to Federal Reserve banks through the
[01:35:02.160 --> 01:35:10.360]  Federal Reserve agents as here and after set for and for no other purpose are
[01:35:10.360 --> 01:35:19.080]  authorized. Exactly. That seems pretty clear. It seems seems to be the clear
[01:35:19.080 --> 01:35:24.680]  intent of the language that they be used only by the Federal Reserve not by
[01:35:24.680 --> 01:35:31.720]  anybody else. Okay the said notes shall be obligations of the United States and
[01:35:31.720 --> 01:35:38.560]  shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal Reserve banks
[01:35:38.560 --> 01:35:45.000]  and for all taxes, customs and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in
[01:35:45.000 --> 01:35:49.320]  lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States in the
[01:35:49.320 --> 01:35:55.720]  City of Washington, District of Columbia or at any Federal Reserve bank. Okay
[01:35:55.720 --> 01:36:04.000]  that's Steve. Yes sir. Will you tell us about Coffee Beans? Coffee Beans yeah now
[01:36:04.000 --> 01:36:08.760]  this is a story I've heard it may be an urban legend there may be fact behind it
[01:36:08.760 --> 01:36:13.200]  but there's a guy out there that earned the moniker called Coffee Bean Gene in
[01:36:13.200 --> 01:36:19.840]  where it is alleged that he went in to fight some minor issue I think maybe a
[01:36:19.840 --> 01:36:25.680]  traffic ticket and he had just about lost his case when the judge said do you
[01:36:25.680 --> 01:36:30.360]  have anything further to say to the court before I render judgment in which
[01:36:30.360 --> 01:36:39.520]  case Gene said yes your honor I do he said can I discharge you you're about to
[01:36:39.520 --> 01:36:43.400]  place an obligation on me is that correct he's out to the tune of 200 bucks
[01:36:43.400 --> 01:36:48.960]  okay fine can I discharge this obligation with an obligation the judge
[01:36:48.960 --> 01:36:55.360]  said no that's not possible next question are Federal Reserve notes an
[01:36:55.360 --> 01:37:01.840]  obligation of the United States to which the judge had to reply as you just read
[01:37:01.840 --> 01:37:07.600]  Randy yes they are Gene then asked in what
[01:37:07.600 --> 01:37:14.880]  species would you have me discharge this obligation your honor the judge said I
[01:37:14.880 --> 01:37:21.640]  don't care if you do it in coffee beans this posed a problem because that
[01:37:21.640 --> 01:37:29.280]  statement by itself gave value to coffee beans and and also showed that the
[01:37:29.280 --> 01:37:35.400]  Federal Reserve note had no value exactly now can I just make one
[01:37:35.400 --> 01:37:41.000]  additional point it's right on point right now if you have any currency you
[01:37:41.000 --> 01:37:47.000]  have in your pocket right now it says on the left side says this note is legal
[01:37:47.000 --> 01:37:52.760]  tender for all that public and private now I happen to happen to have a ten
[01:37:52.760 --> 01:37:59.840]  dollar bill from the 50s which has two additional lines in that exact section
[01:37:59.840 --> 01:38:06.600]  is redeemable in lawful money at the Federal Reserve Bank or the Treasury
[01:38:06.600 --> 01:38:14.920]  exactly yeah exactly I've got a 1934 issue $20 bill that says the same why
[01:38:14.920 --> 01:38:21.200]  did they take those two lines out that goes back to what Randy said earlier
[01:38:21.200 --> 01:38:27.800]  about Congress saying that Federal Reserve notes are legal tender now well
[01:38:27.800 --> 01:38:34.800]  no that that goes a little further in that they took that out when Nixon
[01:38:34.800 --> 01:38:41.440]  removed the the metal backing from the dollar and the dollar became a fiat
[01:38:41.440 --> 01:38:48.920]  currency 1971 right now question though Eddie always says and from what I've
[01:38:48.920 --> 01:38:53.520]  come to know listening other people this is exact this is 100% correct is that
[01:38:53.520 --> 01:38:59.720]  anything can be made legal but it does not make it lawful Constitution talks
[01:38:59.720 --> 01:39:06.600]  about lawful money now are you talking about lawful money or constitutional
[01:39:06.600 --> 01:39:12.680]  money constitutional money is gold and silver coin which is lawful money no no
[01:39:12.680 --> 01:39:21.440]  no no no no no that's constitutional money lawful money we for the definition
[01:39:21.440 --> 01:39:31.600]  of lawful money we go back to 1412 USC 411 though it does not define lawful
[01:39:31.600 --> 01:39:37.000]  money and it says it is redeemable in lawful money not constitutional money
[01:39:37.000 --> 01:39:44.960]  this Constitution the supreme law of the land supposed to be it is the law of the
[01:39:44.960 --> 01:39:55.120]  land and anything it speaks of must be lawful no maybe anything that's what I
[01:39:55.120 --> 01:40:04.280]  miss that word that is in Constitution is thereby therefore lawful yes oh gold
[01:40:04.280 --> 01:40:14.160]  and silver is therefore lawful you wouldn't be correct you okay what do you
[01:40:14.160 --> 01:40:22.040]  mean by lawful lawful lawful for what pursuant to the supreme law of the land
[01:40:22.040 --> 01:40:29.080]  okay lawful is is an is an adjective I'm sorry like lawful is is is a pronoun
[01:40:29.080 --> 01:40:42.720]  lawful what in law no no to say lawful for use lawful as legal tender when the
[01:40:42.720 --> 01:40:47.520]  Constitution talks about gold and silver oh wait a minute okay no no no hold on
[01:40:47.520 --> 01:40:56.600]  what the Constitution says about gold and silver it only says that the state
[01:40:56.600 --> 01:41:06.960]  may only coin gold and silver as lawful money there you go it does not make
[01:41:06.960 --> 01:41:12.560]  gold and silver lawful money it gives the state's option to make gold and
[01:41:12.560 --> 01:41:18.320]  silver lawful money not only and nothing else that is the only thing they can
[01:41:18.320 --> 01:41:25.840]  make lawful money that's it the states that's a restriction on the states the
[01:41:25.840 --> 01:41:31.440]  Constitution doesn't grant anything right the Constitution is a restrictive
[01:41:31.440 --> 01:41:38.880]  document it tells governmental entities and public officials what they cannot do
[01:41:38.880 --> 01:41:48.800]  but it doesn't give Congress the authority to declare create anything
[01:41:48.800 --> 01:41:54.480]  other than that does it because the Constitution doesn't give them
[01:41:54.480 --> 01:42:00.760]  authority but it neither does it deny them authority it does deny the state's
[01:42:00.760 --> 01:42:07.640]  authority to make anything legal tender other than gold or silver the Fed can
[01:42:07.640 --> 01:42:13.000]  make anything legal tender it wants to it does not have that restriction in the
[01:42:13.000 --> 01:42:18.680]  ghost a negotiable instrument is lawful money and negotiable instrument comes in
[01:42:18.680 --> 01:42:24.400]  several different forms it comes in the form of the Federal Reserve note comes
[01:42:24.400 --> 01:42:28.000]  in the form of commercial paper now wait a minute that's an over
[01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:34.120]  generalization okay lawful money is legal tender a contract is not legal
[01:42:34.120 --> 01:42:41.640]  tender while it can be bartered right okay okay it's not money directly but
[01:42:41.640 --> 01:42:46.840]  the issue here and we've talked about this before we've had Dr. Vethon the
[01:42:46.840 --> 01:42:55.360]  Constitution restricts the state in this regard you can only make gold and silver
[01:42:55.360 --> 01:43:01.840]  legal tender nothing restricts the federal government for making
[01:43:01.840 --> 01:43:06.520]  anything legal tender they want to and according to Dr. Veth if they want to
[01:43:06.520 --> 01:43:16.000]  they make popsicle sticks legal tender I don't know that's correct where okay
[01:43:16.000 --> 01:43:24.280]  where in the Constitution is the federal government restricted for making anything
[01:43:24.280 --> 01:43:36.320]  they want to legal tender well that's where we have to go to they can do
[01:43:36.320 --> 01:43:40.880]  anything they're not forbidden to go that's kind of not right either they
[01:43:40.880 --> 01:43:46.360]  have to be authorized to create legal tender somewhere else
[01:43:46.360 --> 01:43:51.800]  hang on we'll get back to that when we come back on the other side Randy
[01:43:51.800 --> 01:43:57.760]  Keltner Stevens blue radio Joe Esquivel I forgot all about you
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[01:46:27.440 --> 01:46:43.440]  okay we are back Randy Kelton better Stevens I guess the thing I have Joe
[01:46:43.440 --> 01:46:51.920]  Esquivel rule of law radio we're talking to Gary in New York and Gary we were
[01:46:51.920 --> 01:46:59.480]  talking about you can coin money and what kid they can coin money in what in
[01:46:59.480 --> 01:47:07.360]  car incarnation they can coin money you have a comment if you get up after
[01:47:07.360 --> 01:47:12.840]  you've been found guilty of a fine and say something like this to the judge
[01:47:12.840 --> 01:47:20.080]  say can I discharge this debt or pay for this with private currency that is not
[01:47:20.080 --> 01:47:28.640]  redeemable in lawful money that's not at all what I said can I discharge this
[01:47:28.640 --> 01:47:34.760]  obligation with an obligation somebody somebody tried it with a different
[01:47:34.760 --> 01:47:40.320]  verbiage they just said that can I pay the private currency that cannot be
[01:47:40.320 --> 01:47:47.360]  exchanged in lawful money and the judge said no you cannot so okay not lawful
[01:47:47.360 --> 01:47:54.640]  you just said it wasn't lawful yeah because the judge was only authorized to
[01:47:54.640 --> 01:48:04.240]  accept lawful money legal tender legal tender legal tender was my I use the
[01:48:04.240 --> 01:48:09.240]  wrong word I couldn't use legal tender that's the point that this is legal
[01:48:09.240 --> 01:48:16.560]  tender it's not lawful money wait a minute this what what did this refer to
[01:48:16.560 --> 01:48:21.240]  the money we're talking about dollar bills ten dollar bills okay that's legal
[01:48:21.240 --> 01:48:29.120]  tender legal tender not for money and we are pretty cares okay there's a document
[01:48:29.120 --> 01:48:35.400]  that goes at length to actually debunk the fact that it is legal tender it's
[01:48:35.400 --> 01:48:43.120]  cold yeah I've got documents to debunk everything that's true
[01:48:43.120 --> 01:48:53.400]  Ralph Winner you can't use this I said well what about the cost you gotta go
[01:48:53.400 --> 01:48:57.880]  to the National Register I said well that's really nice well the National
[01:48:57.880 --> 01:49:03.160]  Register is about 45,000 pages you want to be a little more specific order just
[01:49:03.160 --> 01:49:06.800]  gotta go to the National Register there definitely are a lot of patriot
[01:49:06.800 --> 01:49:12.400]  mythologies out there trying to stretch legal maximum or lawful maximum way
[01:49:12.400 --> 01:49:16.840]  beyond its scope but that does not mean that every document is totally
[01:49:16.840 --> 01:49:21.040]  incorrect and that they understand I understand they can add of those
[01:49:21.040 --> 01:49:26.880]  documents that are even mostly incorrect across everyone out there doesn't get me
[01:49:26.880 --> 01:49:34.400]  too excited anymore because I've read hundreds and hundreds of in what we do
[01:49:34.400 --> 01:49:43.720]  here is we don't really do so much of legal theory is I'm more of an engineer
[01:49:43.720 --> 01:49:52.120]  and I'm based in pragmatic application I'm not going to suggest that someone go
[01:49:52.120 --> 01:50:06.120]  into the court with a unique argument unless the argument is very well
[01:50:06.120 --> 01:50:15.240]  founded in good case law because my primary purpose is just help people find
[01:50:15.240 --> 01:50:23.200]  remedy what I find is very easy is to generate more issues than I can keep up
[01:50:23.200 --> 01:50:33.120]  with and arguing about whether the medium I'm using to discharge a debt is
[01:50:33.120 --> 01:50:40.200]  a valid medium or not and that is an interesting argument for some places but
[01:50:40.200 --> 01:50:48.400]  not here because it's not what we do and I have people coming on saying that the
[01:50:48.400 --> 01:50:55.200]  laws don't apply and I say well maybe they don't but these cops out here they
[01:50:55.200 --> 01:51:01.040]  got these pistols on their hips and they're gonna act like they apply and
[01:51:01.040 --> 01:51:05.440]  the judges are gonna act like they apply it's gonna feel like they apply even if
[01:51:05.440 --> 01:51:10.600]  they don't so we have to deal with it so we basically what you're saying is we
[01:51:10.600 --> 01:51:17.200]  have to play their game under duress under threat and under coercion we don't
[01:51:17.200 --> 01:51:21.920]  have to we go sit in jail so that that you're basically saying that we have I
[01:51:21.920 --> 01:51:26.720]  mean come on but now here's another thing when the judges adjudicate do they
[01:51:26.720 --> 01:51:32.160]  have I mean they have to adjudicate a law not case law that's exactly right
[01:51:32.160 --> 01:51:39.600]  when they when whoa no no no no they get to adjudicate case law that's what
[01:51:39.600 --> 01:51:44.360]  their job is when I say law that's the law I'm talking about but it's that
[01:51:44.360 --> 01:51:50.560]  the statutory law and the common law but that's what that's what that's what
[01:51:50.560 --> 01:51:59.960]  that's what common law is it's case law that's what it's always been all these
[01:51:59.960 --> 01:52:07.000]  people advocate going back to the common law are you crazy guys common law is
[01:52:07.000 --> 01:52:18.920]  where judges make law don't want that I want the judge bound by statute correct
[01:52:18.920 --> 01:52:26.920]  to the degree that a statute does not directly address a specific set of
[01:52:26.920 --> 01:52:37.320]  circumstances then I'll authorize the trial judge to go to a court decision
[01:52:37.320 --> 01:52:45.800]  where the courts examined a very similar set of circumstances and decided how the
[01:52:45.800 --> 01:52:50.520]  law should apply to these particular circumstances because nobody can write
[01:52:50.520 --> 01:52:56.640]  law so complex that it addresses every possible nuance so that's the purpose of
[01:52:56.640 --> 01:53:04.000]  the case law is just to interpret the law now that's my position and that's
[01:53:04.000 --> 01:53:07.720]  going to be the position most of the courts are going to take what is your
[01:53:07.720 --> 01:53:14.920]  take on that well it's hard to believe with more than a hundred thousand law
[01:53:14.920 --> 01:53:22.520]  folks out there not every little nuance hasn't been addressed yet it hasn't no
[01:53:22.520 --> 01:53:37.120]  there's always issues of new issues of first impression yes there are 40 years
[01:53:37.120 --> 01:53:43.120]  ago my father-in-law told me that pretty much everything that can be thought of
[01:53:43.120 --> 01:53:50.960]  has been thought of in 1911 the director of the United States packed office
[01:53:50.960 --> 01:53:56.280]  suggested that the patent office be closed because everything that could be
[01:53:56.280 --> 01:54:07.120]  invented that had been invented they really did that no we keep coming up
[01:54:07.120 --> 01:54:16.360]  with new situations new circumstances and about every 20 years all of the case
[01:54:16.360 --> 01:54:23.360]  law essentially replaces itself so that you see all of this law it's all not
[01:54:23.360 --> 01:54:29.600]  unique you mean to the vast vast majority of it just reinforces what was
[01:54:29.600 --> 01:54:51.160]  already there the only common law that exists in any of the states right now
[01:54:51.160 --> 01:54:58.440]  it's case law the English English common law is really too old to apply
[01:54:58.440 --> 01:55:06.040]  effectively and your Constitution and and it clearly says that they're still
[01:55:06.040 --> 01:55:15.800]  under common law what is that action 13 I believe or 14 no no no what is common
[01:55:15.800 --> 01:55:24.800]  law and I go back to it exactly so I can read it to you precisely but okay hold
[01:55:24.800 --> 01:55:31.320]  on but it may mention common law and say that the state of New York is under
[01:55:31.320 --> 01:55:35.320]  common law but we're looking for a definition of common law what does the
[01:55:35.320 --> 01:55:42.240]  state of New York where do I common law is where do I go look it up I've been
[01:55:42.240 --> 01:55:46.480]  looking for it for a long time and I've asked this question a lot and I've never
[01:55:46.480 --> 01:55:50.760]  had anybody tell me where I could go find the common law I've been told it
[01:55:50.760 --> 01:56:00.160]  lies in case law and in trust law exactly that's a little behind in
[01:56:00.160 --> 01:56:09.520]  times they're still using 1961 you see see well that's right all those New
[01:56:09.520 --> 01:56:17.560]  Yorkers heck they don't even speak English the only one who speak English
[01:56:17.560 --> 01:56:27.120]  is the ones in Texas we picking on you Gary I don't know I've been here for more
[01:56:27.120 --> 01:56:31.400]  than 20 years and I try to study as much as I can and you know I don't try to get
[01:56:31.400 --> 01:56:36.520]  myself attached to these legal theology arguments but when it says so in the
[01:56:36.520 --> 01:56:43.840]  Constitution itself I mean it's pretty it's the interpretation of the verbiage
[01:56:43.840 --> 01:56:50.280]  that comes out that's what changes and I've given you a lot of time Gary and
[01:56:50.280 --> 01:56:57.120]  the reason I've given you a lot of time is I really do like kicking these things
[01:56:57.120 --> 01:57:06.320]  around this way it forces us to go back and rethink what we think when someone
[01:57:06.320 --> 01:57:11.320]  asks good questions it brings up good points then we have to go back over what
[01:57:11.320 --> 01:57:17.640]  we think we know and understand and believe and I thought this last hour was
[01:57:17.640 --> 01:57:24.400]  a very good exercise and I appreciate these questions if I seem to be hammering
[01:57:24.400 --> 01:57:32.840]  at your questions and at the issues it's not intended to be appointed you in any
[01:57:32.840 --> 01:57:40.160]  way but this is how we keep these things organized I have a the best book I've
[01:57:40.160 --> 01:57:45.640]  ever read on language spoke to a number of things people do and one of the things
[01:57:45.640 --> 01:57:53.000]  it said that people do is people seldom operate from a consistent set of
[01:57:53.000 --> 01:58:00.680]  beliefs well it is extremely difficult to do that it takes constant diligence
[01:58:00.680 --> 01:58:06.440]  and this is the kind of diligence that it takes to understand and be able to
[01:58:06.440 --> 01:58:13.920]  apply law effectively thank you Gary I appreciate your call we're out of time
[01:58:13.920 --> 01:58:21.320]  tonight you made for a great last hour in the show this is Randy Kelton Joe
[01:58:21.320 --> 01:58:30.280]  Esquivel Steve skid mark back in the back and Debra Stevens thank you all for
[01:58:30.280 --> 01:58:35.400]  being here we'll be back Monday with Eddie's traffic show and make sure you
[01:58:35.400 --> 01:58:42.240]  purchase Eddie's traffic seminar it'll save you a lot of money on tickets and
[01:58:42.240 --> 01:58:49.080]  make you feel more free we'll be back thank you for listening and good night
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