ROL_2010-11-04_16k.timecode

[00:00.000 --> 00:10.520]  The Center for American Progress reported Thursday a 37 percent increase in the number
[00:10.520 --> 00:13.640]  of suburban poor in the last ten years.
[00:13.640 --> 00:17.400]  Joblessness and foreclosures were major contributing factors.
[00:17.400 --> 00:23.240]  Nonprofits serving the 14 million new poor are scrambling to keep up with the increased
[00:23.240 --> 00:25.240]  need.
[00:25.240 --> 00:30.360]  European police are testing radar cameras that not only catch speeders but check license
[00:30.360 --> 00:35.320]  plates, measure the distance between vehicles and take pictures of the inside of the car
[00:35.320 --> 00:37.280]  to see if you're wearing a seatbelt.
[00:37.280 --> 00:42.480]  The new Big Brother camera is connected to police computers via satellite so prosecutions
[00:42.480 --> 00:46.680]  can be started within seconds of an offense.
[00:46.680 --> 00:51.760]  President Boris Tadic has become the first Serbian leader to pay his respects to Croatian
[00:51.760 --> 00:55.280]  victims of a notorious 1991 massacre.
[00:55.280 --> 01:00.800]  During a visit to a memorial to 260 people murdered at Foucaultvar, Tadic expressed his
[01:00.800 --> 01:02.960]  apology and regret.
[01:02.960 --> 01:10.960]  Foucaultvar was captured after a three-month siege by the Serb-led Yugoslav army.
[01:10.960 --> 01:15.760]  Africa Israel, flagship company of Israeli billionaire Lev Leof, has said it will no
[01:15.760 --> 01:19.000]  longer build Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
[01:19.000 --> 01:24.800]  In the last few years, numerous organizations, firms, governments and celebrities have severed
[01:24.800 --> 01:30.160]  relationships with Leof and his companies over their involvement in settlement construction
[01:30.160 --> 01:32.840]  and other human rights abuses.
[01:32.840 --> 01:37.240]  Critics say the announcement shows the global boycott, divestment and sanction movement
[01:37.240 --> 01:39.520]  against Israel is working.
[01:39.520 --> 01:45.560]  Ethan Heitner of Adala, New York, who initiated the boycott said, this provides concrete evidence
[01:45.560 --> 01:50.200]  of the way in which the BDS movement can change companies' behavior.
[01:50.200 --> 01:55.200]  Leof, who one associate described as having the, quote, instincts of a tiger and balls
[01:55.200 --> 02:01.200]  of a panther, continues to own diamond polishing companies in Angola and Namibia, where jewelry
[02:01.200 --> 02:05.560]  workers work for less than $2 a day.
[02:05.560 --> 02:12.280]  The US Federal Reserve Wednesday announced a $600 billion bond-buying program it asserts
[02:12.280 --> 02:14.680]  will bolster the US economy.
[02:14.680 --> 02:20.720]  The stimulus measure consists of printing money and using it to buy US treasury debt.
[02:20.720 --> 02:26.240]  The Fed says the strategy will raise the price of corporate stocks, lower the dollar's exchange
[02:26.240 --> 02:31.000]  rate, making US exports more attractive, and lower interest rates.
[02:31.000 --> 02:37.520]  The Fed carried out a similar program of so-called quantitative easing between March 2009 and
[02:37.520 --> 02:44.080]  March 2010, flooding financial markets with cheap credit, enabling banks and big corporations
[02:44.080 --> 02:50.320]  to record bumper profits even as they slashed jobs and suffered revenue declines.
[02:50.320 --> 02:54.400]  The new round of dollar printing will likely have the same effect.
[02:54.400 --> 02:59.480]  For more details on this story, visit INNWorldRecord.net.
[02:59.480 --> 03:11.360]  You are listening to the Rule of Law Radio Network at RuleOfLawRadio.com, live free
[03:11.360 --> 03:27.800]  speech talk radio at it's best.
[03:27.800 --> 03:57.740]  Thanks for watching.
[03:57.800 --> 04:01.800]  And you had bad dreams, you go to school and learn the golden rule
[04:01.800 --> 04:04.800]  So why are you acting like a bloody fool?
[04:04.800 --> 04:07.800]  If you get caught, then you must get crewed
[04:07.800 --> 04:10.800]  Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do?
[04:10.800 --> 04:11.800]  What you gonna do?
[04:11.800 --> 04:14.800]  All right, bad boys, bad boys, what are you gonna do?
[04:14.800 --> 04:19.800]  What are you going to do when we come for you here on the Rule of Law?
[04:19.800 --> 04:25.800]  Tonight is Thursday, November 4th, 2010.
[04:25.800 --> 04:29.800]  My name is Deborah Stevens. We're here with Randy Kelton and Eddie Craig.
[04:29.800 --> 04:31.800]  We'll be taking your phone calls tonight.
[04:31.800 --> 04:37.800]  But first, I want to welcome to the show for the first few segments
[04:37.800 --> 04:45.800]  Mrs. Karen Rennick of VoteRescue.org, one of my very good friends.
[04:45.800 --> 04:51.800]  She's going to be talking about the excursion that they had to the County Commissioner's Court on the 19th of this month.
[04:51.800 --> 05:01.800]  And they also did a hand counting of paper ballots demonstration on the steps of Austin City Hall on this past Tuesday.
[05:01.800 --> 05:04.800]  So we're going to hear about these two events tonight.
[05:04.800 --> 05:08.800]  We're going to get the recap, what the reaction was from the public on Tuesday,
[05:08.800 --> 05:12.800]  how much headway they seemed to make or not make with the County Commissioners.
[05:12.800 --> 05:14.800]  Karen, thank you and welcome to the show.
[05:14.800 --> 05:16.800]  Oh, thank you, Deborah. It's wonderful to be back.
[05:16.800 --> 05:26.800]  You guys are so gracious to have us come on and be able to continue explaining to the public what we're doing and what our efforts are.
[05:26.800 --> 05:27.800]  So thank you so much.
[05:27.800 --> 05:28.800]  Of course.
[05:28.800 --> 05:33.800]  And Karen, before we get into the events, for folks out there who may not be familiar with the voting issue
[05:33.800 --> 05:40.800]  or who may think that they have it figured out already but might perhaps be being led down the wrong path,
[05:40.800 --> 05:51.800]  can you please explain to the listeners why voter verified paper trails are way more dangerous than just straight up touchscreen voting systems,
[05:51.800 --> 05:55.800]  why they're equally as bad and how that's absolutely not the way we want to go?
[05:55.800 --> 05:56.800]  Sure.
[05:56.800 --> 06:00.800]  Because, yeah, I think that equally as bad is more appropriate.
[06:00.800 --> 06:11.800]  It's all about having a process that is totally transparent and observable.
[06:11.800 --> 06:18.800]  And first of all, with the direct record electronic machines that we use here in Travis County
[06:18.800 --> 06:24.800]  and that are still used in a large number of municipalities and jurisdictions across the country,
[06:24.800 --> 06:35.800]  you are basically using a system that in no way is there any transparency.
[06:35.800 --> 06:43.800]  There is no way of knowing if your vote is being counted as you intend it to be counted or as it is cast
[06:43.800 --> 06:52.800]  because everything that goes on in the voting process from the moment that you supposedly cast your ballot on the machine is done inside the machine.
[06:52.800 --> 06:57.800]  It's hidden from view and there's just no way of knowing.
[06:57.800 --> 07:08.800]  And some people have thought, well, the solution was, well, let's just have the machine print out a paper trail, not a ballot but a paper trail.
[07:08.800 --> 07:14.800]  And this is what's called the voter verified paper audit trail or VVPAT.
[07:14.800 --> 07:23.800]  And this is also not the solution because these computers can be programmed really to do just about anything you want them to do.
[07:23.800 --> 07:33.800]  And one of the things they can be programmed to do is they can be programmed to actually print out a paper trail, if you call it,
[07:33.800 --> 07:46.800]  that does reflect how you, you know, cast your vote or, you know, wanted to vote, but it also at the same time can record something differently inside the machine.
[07:46.800 --> 07:59.800]  And therefore the machine is still tallying or counting a different, you know, a different count, let's say, or totals for the people running and for the measures.
[07:59.800 --> 08:09.800]  But at the same time it could be spinning out a paper trail that does reflect how the voters are voting.
[08:09.800 --> 08:24.800]  The problem with the paper audit trails is that they're never 100 percent, these printers or whatever never really produce 100 percent
[08:24.800 --> 08:33.800]  because they are prone to failure, they oftentimes record incorrectly, they jam, whatever,
[08:33.800 --> 08:41.800]  and they're practically speaking they're almost impossible to count because the way they've been designed it uses thorough paper,
[08:41.800 --> 08:46.800]  they look like gas station receipts, they curl up, they're long strips of paper,
[08:46.800 --> 08:56.800]  and frankly under 30 percent of the people it's been tested in studies, you know, don't even bother to look at what has been recorded.
[08:56.800 --> 09:07.800]  So really they're useless and most times if you're going to go back and use them as some sort of a check or an audit or even for a recount,
[09:07.800 --> 09:16.800]  the recount or the audit is done a long time after the winner's been declared.
[09:16.800 --> 09:23.800]  It's hard to overturn if you do find a discrepancy, but a lot of times people, they don't even bother to count them.
[09:23.800 --> 09:31.800]  Out there in the states that have this sort of process, there are groups that are monitoring that are happening
[09:31.800 --> 09:37.800]  and they're finding out that they're not performing these so-called spot checks or audits.
[09:37.800 --> 09:41.800]  So it's not efficient frankly.
[09:41.800 --> 09:50.800]  Yes, and not only that for these recounts, the only time that they're used is for recounts and most of the time only something like 5 percent
[09:50.800 --> 09:58.800]  or 3 percent of the precincts or of the general vote is so-called recounted and they just do a statistical mean.
[09:58.800 --> 10:02.800]  So the whole point is the pieces of paper never get counted in the first place.
[10:02.800 --> 10:11.800]  And the reason that I said before that it's possibly even more dangerous is because it gives an illusion to the general public
[10:11.800 --> 10:17.800]  who may know that something's wrong with this voting system of ours, with the machines and like, hey, we need to do something,
[10:17.800 --> 10:20.800]  and oh yeah, paper, that sounds like a good idea.
[10:20.800 --> 10:26.800]  And then this verified paper trails gets palmed off on the public and then they think the problem's solved
[10:26.800 --> 10:28.800]  but there's nothing more that needs to be done.
[10:28.800 --> 10:31.800]  Well, you're absolutely right in that regard, Deborah.
[10:31.800 --> 10:39.800]  It is a false solution and a false sense that, yeah, things are fine, you know, having the paper audit trail.
[10:39.800 --> 10:41.800]  So in that way, you're right.
[10:41.800 --> 10:43.800]  It is more dangerous.
[10:43.800 --> 10:50.800]  And the next step that a lot of jurisdictions take is they say, well, okay, let's go to paper ballots then.
[10:50.800 --> 10:55.800]  And they oftentimes say just make that statement or announcement to the public.
[10:55.800 --> 11:00.800]  And what they really mean is we're going to go to paper ballots but, hey, we're still going to count them electronically.
[11:00.800 --> 11:02.800]  We're going to use scanners.
[11:02.800 --> 11:13.800]  And I find even that, that's even worse because once again, you've got the paper ballot.
[11:13.800 --> 11:17.800]  It is most often hand marked by the voter.
[11:17.800 --> 11:23.800]  For the disabled voter, there are ballot markers out there so they get that assistance that they need.
[11:23.800 --> 11:30.800]  But once again, you're still having the ballot secretly being counted by these scanners.
[11:30.800 --> 11:31.800]  Absolutely.
[11:31.800 --> 11:38.800]  And even if the scanner counter is at the precinct so that people can say, oh, well, see, the counting's being done at the precinct.
[11:38.800 --> 11:41.800]  Yeah, but it's still being done by an electronic machine.
[11:41.800 --> 11:43.800]  It's still being counted electronically.
[11:43.800 --> 11:48.800]  And the paper themselves are not being counted with any oversight.
[11:48.800 --> 11:55.800]  And so then later on down the line, if the election was to be challenged or if somebody was to ask for a recount,
[11:55.800 --> 11:58.800]  well, by then it's too late because the chain of custody has been lost.
[11:58.800 --> 12:00.800]  The polling places have closed.
[12:00.800 --> 12:04.800]  The ballot boxes have all been taken and stored somewhere and moved.
[12:04.800 --> 12:06.800]  So it's too late at that point.
[12:06.800 --> 12:13.800]  The pieces of paper have to be counted by hand at the precinct the night of the election is the only way to do it.
[12:13.800 --> 12:14.800]  That's right.
[12:14.800 --> 12:18.800]  And everything really has to happen on one day.
[12:18.800 --> 12:25.800]  It has to be one continuous process that is observable every step of the way.
[12:25.800 --> 12:35.800]  If anything does get moved, you know, whatever, I mean, just moving it from one room to the other, that's when things happen.
[12:35.800 --> 12:45.800]  And so we say it's just got to be totally, totally open, viewable from the moment the ballot is cast and put into the box.
[12:45.800 --> 12:50.800]  The box stays in full public view until the close of polls.
[12:50.800 --> 12:52.800]  And then the ballots are removed.
[12:52.800 --> 13:01.800]  And that's when in our scenario we've got teams of, you know, the public comes in to count.
[13:01.800 --> 13:03.800]  They've been trained.
[13:03.800 --> 13:07.800]  It's not rocket science, but you've got people who, you know, after work come in,
[13:07.800 --> 13:11.800]  they're not people who have been, you know, working the polls all day long
[13:11.800 --> 13:17.800]  and then are going to have to stand other, say, three to four hours to count the ballots.
[13:17.800 --> 13:24.800]  And then once the ballots are counted and all the tallies have been calculated and everything's been added up,
[13:24.800 --> 13:31.800]  then the next most important step is that they're publicly posted at every single precinct.
[13:31.800 --> 13:41.800]  I mean, that precinct's totals are posted at that precinct so that they can be publicly viewed with today's technology,
[13:41.800 --> 13:47.800]  everybody having, you know, cameras on their cell phones, people can record it, they can send it around,
[13:47.800 --> 13:52.800]  they can post it if they want to, you know, on the Internet.
[13:52.800 --> 14:01.800]  But at that point it sort of freezes. You've captured this count at a very low level in this,
[14:01.800 --> 14:09.800]  sort of in this pyramid of, you know, counting up the ballots so that for county totals you just take all your precinct totals
[14:09.800 --> 14:15.800]  and then for state totals you, you know, count up, you add up your county totals for, you know, for each race.
[14:15.800 --> 14:24.800]  Yes. Posting the results on the precinct door and requiring them to stay posted for, I would say, 72 hours is crucial
[14:24.800 --> 14:31.800]  because that way the chain of custody of the count isn't lost from the precinct to the county level
[14:31.800 --> 14:35.800]  because, like you said, people have cameras on their cell phones or, you know, heck, you know,
[14:35.800 --> 14:39.800]  I'll just drive around all the precincts myself if I have to, you know.
[14:39.800 --> 14:40.800]  If somebody wanted to they could.
[14:40.800 --> 14:48.800]  Exactly. And that way we can verify what the totals that are being reported by the county elections officials
[14:48.800 --> 14:53.800]  to make sure that those actually add up to what the precinct totals really are.
[14:53.800 --> 15:03.800]  Because what we figured out, too, is that oftentimes on these machines perhaps the machine totals could be correct, let's say,
[15:03.800 --> 15:12.800]  but then the tabulation or the tabulating software that's used at the county level could, that could be where there could be
[15:12.800 --> 15:15.800]  insertion of code that's manipulating the totals.
[15:15.800 --> 15:21.800]  So that's why you just have to have everything done totally observably.
[15:21.800 --> 15:26.800]  Or maybe somebody just made an honest mistake on the calculator for all we know.
[15:26.800 --> 15:36.800]  The point is the tabulation has to be verifiable and public at every stage of the game
[15:36.800 --> 15:39.800]  if we're ever going to have legitimate elections.
[15:39.800 --> 15:43.800]  And we have anything but that right now at this point in time.
[15:43.800 --> 15:44.800]  That's right.
[15:44.800 --> 15:56.800]  It's a total sham in my book. And that's what we were, that's what Vote Rescue has been promoting for five years now.
[15:56.800 --> 16:00.800]  And we, right now it's very exciting.
[16:00.800 --> 16:05.800]  Vote Rescue is now part of a coalition called the Hand Count Coalition.
[16:05.800 --> 16:16.800]  Right now we've got 14 groups that are backing, you know, this particular effort in terms of, and we're focusing on Travis County.
[16:16.800 --> 16:20.800]  It could very well spread to other counties and we hope that happens.
[16:20.800 --> 16:23.800]  But in terms, we just don't want to disperse our energies.
[16:23.800 --> 16:32.800]  We want to really focus here locally on our county because it represents, you know, sizable county.
[16:32.800 --> 16:36.800]  All right. Well, speaking of focusing on the county, when we get back,
[16:36.800 --> 16:44.800]  we're going to hear from Karen about what happened when they went down and harassed the, for lack of a better term,
[16:44.800 --> 16:48.800]  the county commissioner's courts here in Travis County.
[16:48.800 --> 16:52.800]  And we're going to see what their reaction was from what I hear.
[16:52.800 --> 16:56.800]  I'm not very happy with their reaction, but we're going to get more about that on the other side.
[16:56.800 --> 17:01.800]  We'll be right back. This is a rule of law.
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[28:01.800 --> 28:03.800]  Sorry, Karen.
[28:03.800 --> 28:12.800]  Well, that's exactly where we are in this whole public debate about hand counted paper ballot elections, Deborah.
[28:12.800 --> 28:15.800]  And that was our emphasis this past Tuesday.
[28:15.800 --> 28:23.800]  In the past, just to clarify for people who are familiar with Vote Rescue and what we've done in previous elections,
[28:23.800 --> 28:35.800]  we have held what we call our parallel elections in which we are actually taking a handful of the races that are being voted on on the machines.
[28:35.800 --> 28:37.800]  We're creating our own unofficial ballot.
[28:37.800 --> 28:44.800]  We're inviting voters who are coming out of a particular polling place to vote once more.
[28:44.800 --> 28:47.800]  Yes, you can vote twice, but our time is not the official count.
[28:47.800 --> 28:49.800]  And they can vote on our ballot.
[28:49.800 --> 28:53.800]  But it typically has been a limited ballot, a shortened ballot.
[28:53.800 --> 29:03.800]  And then at the close of polls after all these volunteer second voters that we'll call them have voted on a paper ballot,
[29:03.800 --> 29:10.800]  at the close of polls then we bring in our team that's at the polling place will then sit down and publicly count the ballots.
[29:10.800 --> 29:21.800]  And in that way we have been able to more or less, there's a comparison between what our results are on the outside versus what the official results are coming off of the machines.
[29:21.800 --> 29:25.800]  And so that's in essence is a parallel election.
[29:25.800 --> 29:33.800]  We've done these not so much to try and catch the, you know, if there is a difference, I hear the music.
[29:33.800 --> 29:34.800]  You hear the music.
[29:34.800 --> 29:35.800]  Yes.
[29:35.800 --> 29:39.800]  Can you ladies, excuse me, stay on for another segment or two?
[29:39.800 --> 29:41.800]  Yes, I can.
[29:41.800 --> 29:42.800]  Okay, excellent.
[29:42.800 --> 29:49.800]  All right, we'll be right back with Karen Renick and Vicki Karp from VoteRescue.org, two of my best friends in the whole universe.
[29:49.800 --> 29:59.800]  We're talking about parallel elections and how to do it the right way, either do it the right way or not.
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[31:12.800 --> 31:15.800]  Noise at work could be killing you, literally.
[31:15.800 --> 31:20.800]  A new study looked at employees who worked in noisy environments for at least a year and a half.
[31:20.800 --> 31:25.800]  They found their risk of serious heart trouble was triple that of employees who worked in a quiet environment.
[31:25.800 --> 31:27.800]  What is a noisy workspace?
[31:27.800 --> 31:31.800]  Researchers say if you have to raise your voice to carry on a normal conversation, it's noisy.
[31:31.800 --> 31:37.800]  By that definition, more than 22 million Americans face noise hazards on the job every day.
[31:37.800 --> 31:42.800]  If finding a quieter job isn't an option, take precautions to help offset the effects of noise.
[31:42.800 --> 31:47.800]  Use earplugs, take good care of yourself, and limit the other stressors in your life.
[31:47.800 --> 32:02.800]  I'm Dr. Catherine Albrecht. More news and information at CatherineAlbrecht.com.
[32:02.800 --> 32:08.800]  Yes, Mr. Officer, you've taken the right hand.
[32:08.800 --> 32:12.800]  Won't you follow the law of the land?
[32:12.800 --> 32:17.800]  The law of the land is bad. The job is to protect our service.
[32:17.800 --> 32:20.800]  Not be Arabians.
[32:20.800 --> 32:23.800]  Not this bad.
[32:23.800 --> 32:28.800]  When you're gonna stop abuse, you're a power.
[32:28.800 --> 32:34.800]  When you're gonna stop abuse, you're a power.
[32:34.800 --> 32:39.800]  When you're gonna stop abuse, you're a power.
[32:39.800 --> 32:44.800]  When you're gonna stop abuse, you're a power.
[32:44.800 --> 32:50.800]  So please, Mr. Macklin, teach officers how to abuse their power.
[32:50.800 --> 32:55.800]  Send a request to the leaders, the captain of all officers.
[32:55.800 --> 33:01.800]  Tell them to uphold the law, and please don't abuse their power.
[33:01.800 --> 33:06.800]  The beat and the beat and the cheat and the cheat and the light every hour.
[33:06.800 --> 33:12.800]  So, Mr. Officer, please stop abusing your power.
[33:12.800 --> 33:17.800]  You pulled me over. I tell me to be silent, sir.
[33:17.800 --> 33:22.800]  I need to speak to my lawyer, Mr. Officer.
[33:22.800 --> 33:29.800]  Okay, folks, we are back. We're talking with Karen Renick and Vicki Karp of VoteRescue.org.
[33:29.800 --> 33:36.800]  Okay, so Vicki gave you an example of how we ran a paper ballot election at my homeowners' association,
[33:36.800 --> 33:41.800]  and so why don't you tell us what you guys did on Tuesday
[33:41.800 --> 33:46.800]  and what y'all are finding to be the most effective means of counting paper ballots,
[33:46.800 --> 33:49.800]  and is it similar to what we had, to what we did?
[33:49.800 --> 33:56.800]  There's some similarities of what we were doing Tuesday to what you were describing, Deborah.
[33:56.800 --> 34:00.800]  What we were doing Tuesday, and Karen was starting to explain how it was a little different
[34:00.800 --> 34:03.800]  from our typical parallel election we've held in the past,
[34:03.800 --> 34:09.800]  where we were seeking to compare our results to the, quote-unquote, official results inside,
[34:09.800 --> 34:14.800]  and we have found differences with certain candidates, notably, let's say, Ron Paul,
[34:14.800 --> 34:18.800]  when he was running for president, you know, not too surprising.
[34:18.800 --> 34:23.800]  We find other candidates, you know, similar numbers, similar percentages,
[34:23.800 --> 34:25.800]  and Ron Paul's numbers would be off.
[34:25.800 --> 34:28.800]  We did that, I guess we did exit polls at that time.
[34:28.800 --> 34:32.800]  But what we were doing this time on Tuesday was we were really researching
[34:32.800 --> 34:36.800]  a couple of different hand-count methods, so we weren't seeking to compare results.
[34:36.800 --> 34:41.800]  We were seeking to get as many ballots voted, and we, you know, we voted some,
[34:41.800 --> 34:45.800]  and we had people come around and vote that were at the city hall,
[34:45.800 --> 34:49.800]  and we were just trying to get several hundred ballots together so that at 7 o'clock
[34:49.800 --> 34:51.800]  we could do two different types of hand-counts,
[34:51.800 --> 34:56.800]  and one, which is kind of similar to what you were describing, Deborah,
[34:56.800 --> 35:02.800]  is actually sort of blessed by our Secretary of State's election division.
[35:02.800 --> 35:06.800]  They have a video on it on their Web site, which we showed during training,
[35:06.800 --> 35:13.800]  and in that mode, one person reads off the votes, off the ballot,
[35:13.800 --> 35:16.800]  and three different talliers, this is what's similar to what you were describing,
[35:16.800 --> 35:20.800]  three different people are putting a tally mark on a tally sheet.
[35:20.800 --> 35:24.800]  So you hope that they all three will match up at the end, like what you were describing.
[35:24.800 --> 35:28.800]  Yeah, and you hope that the one reading it is actually reading it correctly.
[35:28.800 --> 35:31.800]  Yeah, because there's not, you know, there's not a system,
[35:31.800 --> 35:36.800]  at least from what we could discern, there's not a system built in for a monitor there,
[35:36.800 --> 35:42.800]  although in the video there was a poll watcher who was watching maybe one tallier,
[35:42.800 --> 35:45.800]  but, you know, one person watching, as you noted yourself,
[35:45.800 --> 35:48.800]  can't really watch everything that's going on in that scenario.
[35:48.800 --> 35:52.800]  Luckily, the minute difference that happened in your election
[35:52.800 --> 35:55.800]  wasn't big enough to make a difference to any of the others.
[35:55.800 --> 35:58.800]  Well, and also in our election, it wasn't one person holding it
[35:58.800 --> 36:00.800]  and reading it off to the other talliers.
[36:00.800 --> 36:02.800]  Every tallier got to look at the ballot themselves.
[36:02.800 --> 36:04.800]  Oh, I see, so it was a little different.
[36:04.800 --> 36:05.800]  Yeah, yeah.
[36:05.800 --> 36:08.800]  It was like the first one would look at the ballot, do the tally,
[36:08.800 --> 36:10.800]  and then pass the ballot to the second one.
[36:10.800 --> 36:14.800]  Ah, okay, well that's a little variation on what we did.
[36:14.800 --> 36:18.800]  And then the other method that we were using is one that we have used in the past
[36:18.800 --> 36:22.800]  in our parallel elections and counting our exit poll results,
[36:22.800 --> 36:28.800]  and also what we've done, we've helped execute elections for the Public Access TV stations,
[36:28.800 --> 36:33.800]  Producers Council meeting for the Libertarian State Convention in June,
[36:33.800 --> 36:38.800]  and other organizations we've helped, and what that involved is four people.
[36:38.800 --> 36:42.800]  One person is the reader, so they're reading off the ballot,
[36:42.800 --> 36:46.800]  who, you know, who's the winners of the candidates and propositions,
[36:46.800 --> 36:50.800]  and that reader has an observer watching them.
[36:50.800 --> 36:55.800]  And then on the other side of the table is a tallier marking tally marks on a tally sheet,
[36:55.800 --> 36:58.800]  and that person has an observer watching them.
[36:58.800 --> 37:04.800]  So you have, you know, 50 percent of the action is observers.
[37:04.800 --> 37:06.800]  And we found that to be a really good system.
[37:06.800 --> 37:12.800]  Now, what we encountered on Tuesday was it was a cold and rainy night,
[37:12.800 --> 37:17.800]  and we didn't have ideal conditions for our volunteers,
[37:17.800 --> 37:20.800]  and they were getting kind of cold and uncomfortable.
[37:20.800 --> 37:24.800]  So we didn't get as far with our counting as we wanted to that evening.
[37:24.800 --> 37:28.800]  We decided to let everybody reach a sort of a stopping point.
[37:28.800 --> 37:32.800]  We had divided up the ballots into batches of 24,
[37:32.800 --> 37:35.800]  and each team had about three batches of 24,
[37:35.800 --> 37:39.800]  and we had two groups that were counting according to the Secretary of State's method,
[37:39.800 --> 37:42.800]  and we had three counting according to what we call the boat rescue method.
[37:42.800 --> 37:49.800]  And we didn't quite get as much data as we would like to be able to make a clear comparison
[37:49.800 --> 37:54.800]  between those two or the timing because of certain things, you know, the conditions.
[37:54.800 --> 37:57.800]  Also, there were a couple of errors on our forms.
[37:57.800 --> 38:03.800]  And what we did get, though, was we had a bunch of very enthusiastic volunteers
[38:03.800 --> 38:07.800]  who liked what they were doing and we think would be willing to come back
[38:07.800 --> 38:10.800]  because what we're going to do is just bring those ballots back.
[38:10.800 --> 38:13.800]  They're not state-sensitive to the election
[38:13.800 --> 38:17.800]  because we were never really, you know, comparing results on election night.
[38:17.800 --> 38:19.800]  So what we're inviting them to do is to come back.
[38:19.800 --> 38:26.800]  We're going to find a nice, warm inside venue that is volunteer-friendly
[38:26.800 --> 38:29.800]  and really sort of recreate the whole experiment.
[38:29.800 --> 38:31.800]  And the reason that we're doing this, really,
[38:31.800 --> 38:33.800]  I just want to just get down to the basics.
[38:33.800 --> 38:37.800]  What we are being told over and over again by our so-called elected officials
[38:37.800 --> 38:39.800]  is that we can't do hand-counted paper ballots
[38:39.800 --> 38:41.800]  because, oh, my God, it would take so many people.
[38:41.800 --> 38:42.800]  How are we going to get all these people?
[38:42.800 --> 38:44.800]  And it would cost so much money.
[38:44.800 --> 38:46.800]  And we don't believe that.
[38:46.800 --> 38:51.800]  And the data that they're using to back that up, we question.
[38:51.800 --> 38:54.800]  And so by doing what we're doing here, this little research project,
[38:54.800 --> 38:59.800]  and how many seconds does it really take to read off one race
[38:59.800 --> 39:01.800]  and for the tallier to mark it down?
[39:01.800 --> 39:04.800]  And the difference between our estimates, for example,
[39:04.800 --> 39:08.800]  last year at this Travis County Election Study Group we participated in,
[39:08.800 --> 39:10.800]  the difference between our estimates of time
[39:10.800 --> 39:14.800]  and the county's estimates were ours were half as many seconds
[39:14.800 --> 39:15.800]  as what they were saying.
[39:15.800 --> 39:18.800]  And the difference means twice as much money or people.
[39:18.800 --> 39:21.800]  So the real answer to that could be very illuminating
[39:21.800 --> 39:27.800]  in terms of what the real cost in terms of people and dollars would be.
[39:27.800 --> 39:33.800]  Right, and I'm sure it is a fraction of what it takes to pay for these voting machines.
[39:33.800 --> 39:40.800]  Well, actually, we did our own cost analysis, Deborah.
[39:40.800 --> 39:43.800]  Actually, we brought in experts to do that.
[39:43.800 --> 39:48.800]  And this is another area of serious contention we have with the county
[39:48.800 --> 39:51.800]  because they basically hold the keys to the castle
[39:51.800 --> 39:57.800]  in terms of understanding all the processes that go on in preparing for elections
[39:57.800 --> 40:03.800]  and the intensity of the effort, whether it's paper ballots or preparing machines.
[40:03.800 --> 40:09.800]  And so they're claiming our analysis fell short in understanding the full process,
[40:09.800 --> 40:15.800]  but of course they're basically monitoring themselves.
[40:15.800 --> 40:26.800]  I mean, it's not an impartial analysis if you have the county basically providing the analysis of the systems.
[40:26.800 --> 40:31.800]  But we tried to do it using professional consultants.
[40:31.800 --> 40:37.800]  And from our effort, which I thought was the best that one could do
[40:37.800 --> 40:39.800]  without knowing all the inside information,
[40:39.800 --> 40:44.800]  and actually we did use a lot of information provided by the county,
[40:44.800 --> 40:56.800]  it is not an inexpensive process if you want to pay people to provide their services on election night.
[40:56.800 --> 40:59.800]  I mean, we went on that premise that we would be paying,
[40:59.800 --> 41:03.800]  I mean, I don't want to get into numbers and get bogged down in this,
[41:03.800 --> 41:12.800]  but we were paying a reasonable amount, you know, $10 to $12 an hour.
[41:12.800 --> 41:25.800]  And our totals actually came out working out to be very much similar to what it costs to run an election using the machines.
[41:25.800 --> 41:30.800]  And this is sort of prorating the cost of the machines over a certain number of years and all this stuff.
[41:30.800 --> 41:34.800]  But our point is that, okay, elections are expensive,
[41:34.800 --> 41:42.800]  especially if you're going to pay people to count and participate,
[41:42.800 --> 41:48.800]  but we say why are we spending all that money and giving it to these private corporations
[41:48.800 --> 41:54.800]  when we could be paying the same amount of money to people who are in our community,
[41:54.800 --> 41:57.800]  and that money stays in our community.
[41:57.800 --> 42:01.800]  It doesn't get siphoned out by the vendors.
[42:01.800 --> 42:06.800]  So we present that as an argument, I think a very plausible one,
[42:06.800 --> 42:10.800]  for, you know, when we start getting into this nitty-gritty thing about cost
[42:10.800 --> 42:14.800]  because that's where all these discussions usually end up,
[42:14.800 --> 42:20.800]  and then we say, well, if it's the right way, then, you know, it costs what it costs.
[42:20.800 --> 42:23.800]  Yeah, it's like that, you know, the MasterCard ad.
[42:23.800 --> 42:30.800]  You know, it's really having an honest transparent election run by citizens is a priceless situation.
[42:30.800 --> 42:33.800]  Well, yeah, I mean, when you're getting into the cost, okay,
[42:33.800 --> 42:37.800]  so say if it's volunteer run only, yeah, it's going to be a fraction of the cost,
[42:37.800 --> 42:40.800]  and not only is it cheaper, but even if you're going to pay people,
[42:40.800 --> 42:42.800]  it comes out about the same.
[42:42.800 --> 42:43.800]  So what's the deal, people?
[42:43.800 --> 42:44.800]  What is the deal?
[42:44.800 --> 42:48.800]  I mean, obviously, Houston, we have a problem here.
[42:48.800 --> 42:54.800]  Deborah, I wanted to mention another aspect of what we did this past Tuesday night.
[42:54.800 --> 43:01.800]  Another criteria that was high on our list was the high visibility factor.
[43:01.800 --> 43:07.800]  We wanted to be demonstrating what a totally transparent election looks like
[43:07.800 --> 43:17.800]  in a location where we would get noticed, and so that's why we picked City Hall Plaza.
[43:17.800 --> 43:21.800]  It's one of those locations here in Travis County.
[43:21.800 --> 43:25.800]  It had a lot of the amenities we needed because we knew we would be outside.
[43:25.800 --> 43:30.800]  You know, we're still outsiders, literally.
[43:30.800 --> 43:33.800]  I never thought of it that way, Karen, but you're so right.
[43:33.800 --> 43:36.800]  You know, it was, you know, we wanted to demonstrate we're still outside,
[43:36.800 --> 43:42.800]  shivering in the cold, but we're in the right, and the city is next.
[43:42.800 --> 43:44.800]  Okay, yeah, and you know what, speaking of that,
[43:44.800 --> 43:48.800]  I'm about done with these city officials in the county.
[43:48.800 --> 43:52.800]  I think it's time to sue Travis County over this.
[43:52.800 --> 43:55.800]  I'm going to be cooking up a lawsuit over this,
[43:55.800 --> 44:00.800]  but we're going to hear from Karen and Vicki some more on the other side.
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[46:13.800 --> 46:18.800]  If you did not have any problems, where are you going to look for one?
[46:18.800 --> 46:24.800]  If you could not reach any back to love, would your purpose have to be done?
[46:24.800 --> 46:30.800]  Don't just stand around a soldier or warrior up low, scoupling the key to the key.
[46:30.800 --> 46:36.800]  All they're taking is a misunderstanding, and somebody calls the police.
[46:36.800 --> 47:00.800]  Why do the sparks fly?
[47:00.800 --> 47:02.800]  The prison isn't the section.
[47:02.800 --> 47:06.800]  The hard work can leave you cold as nails.
[47:06.800 --> 47:09.800]  And then after they've hit, you're trying to quit the key.
[47:09.800 --> 47:12.800]  A heavy load of tape and unscathed.
[47:12.800 --> 47:15.800]  The time has come all in with subconscious.
[47:15.800 --> 47:18.800]  You find out after a while.
[47:18.800 --> 47:21.800]  Okay, folks, we are back.
[47:21.800 --> 47:25.800]  Okay, so ladies, why don't you tell us in this next segment,
[47:25.800 --> 47:32.800]  what was the reaction of the general public to this parallel election or this demonstration
[47:32.800 --> 47:34.800]  that you all had at City Council?
[47:34.800 --> 47:39.800]  And then please get into just a summary concerning the County Commissioner's Court.
[47:39.800 --> 47:41.800]  Well, I'll take that first part.
[47:41.800 --> 47:43.800]  This is Vicki.
[47:43.800 --> 47:47.800]  You know, people love voting with us at these parallel elections,
[47:47.800 --> 47:51.800]  and you see a light bulb come on with a lot of these people when they come over
[47:51.800 --> 47:54.800]  and ask what we're doing and invite them to vote with us.
[47:54.800 --> 47:58.800]  And as they're filling out the ballot, a lot of times we'll hear people say things like,
[47:58.800 --> 48:03.800]  you know, I never really felt real certain about those machines.
[48:03.800 --> 48:07.800]  I just always kind of in the back of my mind thought, what's really happening with my vote there?
[48:07.800 --> 48:09.800]  And we say, yes, exactly.
[48:09.800 --> 48:13.800]  And that's the whole point is that nobody can guarantee that your vote is being counted as cast.
[48:13.800 --> 48:19.800]  So I think it just sort of brings up to the forefront of people's minds the fact that our current voting system
[48:19.800 --> 48:23.800]  is totally non-transparent, and it's, as we call it, faith-based voting
[48:23.800 --> 48:28.800]  because they're relying on the machine and the election officials to assure you that,
[48:28.800 --> 48:30.800]  oh, yeah, your vote is being counted the way you cast it.
[48:30.800 --> 48:32.800]  Just don't worry about it.
[48:32.800 --> 48:33.800]  This is totally ridiculous.
[48:33.800 --> 48:37.800]  And as Karen says, often says, I don't know if that was from Benjamin Franklin,
[48:37.800 --> 48:40.800]  that quote about elections should be about distrust.
[48:40.800 --> 48:42.800]  Is that a Ben Franklin quote, Karen?
[48:42.800 --> 48:48.800]  Yes, this quote is that distrust and patience are the parents of security.
[48:48.800 --> 48:53.800]  And that's what we have here is that it really is about distrust.
[48:53.800 --> 48:57.800]  And so because we know that people are going to cheat.
[48:57.800 --> 48:59.800]  People want to steal elections.
[48:59.800 --> 49:01.800]  There is always going to be fraud.
[49:01.800 --> 49:11.800]  And we just got to have, you just have to be able to minimize the ability or the ease of stealing an election.
[49:11.800 --> 49:14.800]  And that's why you have every step of the process visible.
[49:14.800 --> 49:16.800]  So the public was pretty receptive to this.
[49:16.800 --> 49:19.800]  Did you all get a large degree of participation?
[49:19.800 --> 49:21.800]  We did among the people who were there.
[49:21.800 --> 49:24.800]  There weren't a whole lot of people there that day.
[49:24.800 --> 49:29.800]  A lot of people that voted at that precinct, just like all around town, voted early.
[49:29.800 --> 49:31.800]  So there were not a huge number of voters.
[49:31.800 --> 49:36.800]  But amongst the people who were there, we got a pretty good rate of participation.
[49:36.800 --> 49:41.800]  And it was so exhilarating to watch our volunteers get out there and talk to these people.
[49:41.800 --> 49:44.800]  Karen and I are so used to always being the ones to do that,
[49:44.800 --> 49:47.800]  you know, explain to people what we're doing, blah, blah, blah.
[49:47.800 --> 49:49.800]  And, you know, our volunteers would just jump out there and say,
[49:49.800 --> 49:51.800]  hey, would you like to vote in our parallel election day?
[49:51.800 --> 49:52.800]  Let's explain to you.
[49:52.800 --> 49:53.800]  This is the people's hand count.
[49:53.800 --> 49:55.800]  They would explain what we were doing.
[49:55.800 --> 49:57.800]  And they did such a beautiful job.
[49:57.800 --> 50:06.800]  And we always, one of our favorite parts about doing these types of actions is watching the enthusiasm of our volunteers.
[50:06.800 --> 50:13.800]  We have a lot of people who have been volunteering with us for ever since we started our first parallel election five years ago.
[50:13.800 --> 50:19.800]  We had people on Tuesday who were helping us in 2005 do the same thing.
[50:19.800 --> 50:22.800]  And then we have new people that are doing it for the first time.
[50:22.800 --> 50:24.800]  And we watch how enthusiastic they are.
[50:24.800 --> 50:27.800]  It's the same thing with them as it is with the public.
[50:27.800 --> 50:32.800]  They just – it's sort of a passion that just sort of catches, you know, just catches fire in your heart.
[50:32.800 --> 50:35.800]  It's like this is what an election is supposed to be.
[50:35.800 --> 50:38.800]  Very exciting to experience and to watch.
[50:38.800 --> 50:48.800]  Absolutely. And we did get a number of people comment. They said, gosh, it didn't take me as long to vote on this ballot as it did inside on me.
[50:48.800 --> 50:50.800]  That's great. That's awesome.
[50:50.800 --> 50:52.800]  Well, I'm glad to hear it was very well received.
[50:52.800 --> 51:02.800]  And, yeah, once people see it, it's kind of like, you know, selling ice cream cones, you know, on a 110-degree day.
[51:02.800 --> 51:04.800]  It doesn't take much.
[51:04.800 --> 51:08.800]  So, okay, so we've got a few minutes left here in this segment.
[51:08.800 --> 51:19.800]  Why don't you all give us a recap of the County Commissioner's Court debacle, fiasco, as it were, and what is the situation as it stands now?
[51:19.800 --> 51:20.800]  Well, I'll dive in here.
[51:20.800 --> 51:21.800]  Yeah, sure.
[51:21.800 --> 51:22.800]  Molly, just back and forth.
[51:22.800 --> 51:23.800]  Yeah.
[51:23.800 --> 51:24.800]  Go ahead.
[51:24.800 --> 51:25.800]  Let me just go back.
[51:25.800 --> 51:32.800]  There's a history about this that all culminated in this October 19th session.
[51:32.800 --> 51:34.800]  And I'll try to be very brief about it.
[51:34.800 --> 51:43.800]  Basically, two years ago, after Vote Rescue and other groups that have been supporting us had been going to the Commissioner's Court for a long time,
[51:43.800 --> 51:50.800]  bringing them evidence of how easily these machines can be manipulated and that they're secretly counting their votes.
[51:50.800 --> 51:57.800]  They finally cried uncle and said, okay, we'll commission a study.
[51:57.800 --> 52:06.800]  And we're going to put the county clerk who administers the elections in the county in charge of this study.
[52:06.800 --> 52:11.800]  Which we refer to as like asking a bank to audit itself.
[52:11.800 --> 52:16.800]  So she was put in charge of doing this so-called election study group.
[52:16.800 --> 52:19.800]  And she's convened two of these in the past.
[52:19.800 --> 52:28.800]  And the results of the last one she convened in 1998, I think it was, or 99, that's when they decided that getting the results back
[52:28.800 --> 52:34.800]  by the 10 o'clock news was one of the most top three important criteria.
[52:34.800 --> 52:40.800]  And that was part of the reason why they picked the hardner civic machines, for one thing.
[52:40.800 --> 52:53.800]  So you can see right there that the so-called study groups don't do, I think, a good job in terms of coming up with the best criteria for elections.
[52:53.800 --> 52:57.800]  And typically in the past she's had 20-some participants.
[52:57.800 --> 53:00.800]  Well, this time she decided to invite 45 people.
[53:00.800 --> 53:08.800]  So right from the beginning it was really not a study group that could sit around the table and talk about security issues
[53:08.800 --> 53:16.800]  and all the different issues about elections and look at them in terms of three possible systems.
[53:16.800 --> 53:21.800]  You know, we supposedly talked about the system that we use now.
[53:21.800 --> 53:24.800]  We also talked about going to scanners.
[53:24.800 --> 53:27.800]  And the third one was hand-counted paper ballots.
[53:27.800 --> 53:32.800]  So we achieved some sort of a victory there and at least bringing it, putting it on the table.
[53:32.800 --> 53:44.800]  Well, the study group itself was a total sham because it was the county clerk basically just teaching an elections 101 class.
[53:44.800 --> 53:54.800]  And they never really got into any of the, you know, discussions about the security and all the reports about the problems with these machines.
[53:54.800 --> 54:01.800]  It wasn't until we were given the floor that rescue was allowed to present the option of hand-counted paper ballots.
[54:01.800 --> 54:05.800]  So two-thirds of our presentation was basically covering security.
[54:05.800 --> 54:10.800]  Well, anyway, with that said and done, it took nearly two years.
[54:10.800 --> 54:21.800]  Well, it was practically two years to the day to finally have the county clerk come back to the county commissioners with the results of this study group.
[54:21.800 --> 54:29.800]  And we found that it was all, it had all been preordained in terms of how the commissioners were going to,
[54:29.800 --> 54:31.800]  whether they would approve it or not.
[54:31.800 --> 54:43.800]  They had clearly made their decision to go along with what the county clerk had presented despite the fact that we had a number of people come that day.
[54:43.800 --> 54:46.800]  Vicki, how many people would you say, 12 people maybe?
[54:46.800 --> 54:48.800]  No, yeah, 12 or 15 people.
[54:48.800 --> 54:57.800]  Yeah, and we had been bringing people with us week after week before that too, asking for a hearing, asking for a paper ballot option, but being totally ignored.
[54:57.800 --> 55:02.800]  That's saying, no, we're going to wait until the 19th when the clerk shows up with her recommendations.
[55:02.800 --> 55:04.800]  Oh, boy, that is just criminal.
[55:04.800 --> 55:09.800]  And I'll tell you what, you know, I'm sorry, ladies, I didn't have time to participate in all this the last few months,
[55:09.800 --> 55:13.800]  but when you all start up this whole thing again with the county commissioners' court,
[55:13.800 --> 55:19.800]  let me know because this time I'm going to bring in the reports from the examiners who were hired by the Secretary of State.
[55:19.800 --> 55:25.800]  And in their own reports, and I pulled this off of the Secretary of State website where it said there were all these problems
[55:25.800 --> 55:30.800]  and they even had to enter in the results of the election in order to get the machines to work at all the first time.
[55:30.800 --> 55:41.800]  And only one of the examiners at the end of their report said, no, that's it, we're going to, I am going to recommend against these machines.
[55:41.800 --> 55:48.800]  But all the other examiners, they opted to recommend for the machines even though they admitted in their own reports all these problems.
[55:48.800 --> 55:49.800]  Exactly.
[55:49.800 --> 55:50.800]  And so that should be presented.
[55:50.800 --> 55:56.800]  Those reports are scathing, some of them is scathing evidence against the machines, and yet in the bottom line,
[55:56.800 --> 55:59.800]  we did, well, yes, we actually, we did.
[55:59.800 --> 56:04.800]  We had some, quote, Nancy Robbins actually had brought some of that up too, our Vogue Rescue friend.
[56:04.800 --> 56:09.800]  But, you know, the bottom line of all this, when all of this settles, what we ended up with in Travis County,
[56:09.800 --> 56:15.800]  thanks to Dana de Beauvoir and the commissioners on October 19, is three more years of these paperless,
[56:15.800 --> 56:21.800]  non-transparent, corporate-controlled, unconstitutional, security-ridden voting machines.
[56:21.800 --> 56:24.800]  That's what we have, three more years of the same.
[56:24.800 --> 56:29.800]  And then maybe they're going to do paper with scanners?
[56:29.800 --> 56:30.800]  Maybe.
[56:30.800 --> 56:36.800]  And are the scanners going to be at the precincts or are they going to be at some central tabulation area?
[56:36.800 --> 56:41.800]  Well, we're not sure, but we think it's going to be precinct scanners as part of the system.
[56:41.800 --> 56:45.800]  But, you know, we don't know yet what that's going to be.
[56:45.800 --> 56:51.800]  And for anyone that's not familiar with the DVD, the HGO documentary, Hacking Democracy,
[56:51.800 --> 56:57.800]  if you want to find out what you can do with a scanner to flip an election, be sure and watch Hacking Democracy.
[56:57.800 --> 57:01.800]  You can even Google, you can YouTube components of it.
[57:01.800 --> 57:06.800]  There's a hack of an optical scan counter that's just to take your breath away.
[57:06.800 --> 57:13.800]  Yeah, and I think even Stanford University did a study on one of these scanners and it showed that among many things,
[57:13.800 --> 57:17.800]  one of the things was that during test mode it looked like it worked fine,
[57:17.800 --> 57:23.800]  but then when it went into real lifetime mode, election mode, it was totally wrong.
[57:23.800 --> 57:33.800]  Heaven forbid that one of the priorities of these people that look at this type of criteria be that the count be accurate first and foremost.
[57:33.800 --> 57:34.800]  Yeah, exactly.
[57:34.800 --> 57:38.800]  And that can't even be proven anyway, even if they like to call it a criteria.
[57:38.800 --> 57:39.800]  Can I briefly mention Germany?
[57:39.800 --> 57:45.800]  Yes, and actually there are some callers that want to talk to you ladies, so if you could stay over, that would be great.
[57:45.800 --> 57:47.800]  Okay.
[57:47.800 --> 57:54.800]  Okay, let's explain what other countries, you know, where other countries are on this,
[57:54.800 --> 57:57.800]  because electronic voting is not just unique to the United States,
[57:57.800 --> 58:04.800]  although I'd say majority of the world's voters do vote on paper ballots that are hand counted,
[58:04.800 --> 58:08.800]  but you do have other countries that have gone to electronic voting.
[58:08.800 --> 58:11.800]  So maybe I'll finish up on that on the other side.
[58:11.800 --> 58:12.800]  Yes, you can finish up on the other side.
[58:12.800 --> 58:19.800]  We've got Rob in Connecticut that wants to talk to you ladies, and there was a Richard in Texas that called in for you all.
[58:19.800 --> 58:20.800]  Richard's now dropped off the line.
[58:20.800 --> 58:29.800]  So Richard, Karen and Vicki are staying over through the top of the hour break, so please call back in, and then we'll go to Charles.
[58:29.800 --> 58:31.800]  All right, folks, stay tuned.
[58:31.800 --> 58:34.800]  We're going to finish up with Karen and Vicki on the other side.
[58:34.800 --> 58:37.800]  This is the rule of law, ruleoflawradio.com.
[58:37.800 --> 58:59.800]  Randy Kelton, Eddie Craig and Deborah Stevens.
[58:59.800 --> 59:03.800]  The Bible remains the most popular book in the world,
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[59:11.800 --> 59:16.800]  but in the process can compromise the profound meaning of the scripture.
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[59:18.800 --> 59:22.800]  First, this new translation is extremely faithful and accurate,
[59:22.800 --> 59:27.800]  but the real story is the more than 9,000 explanatory footnotes.
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[59:53.800 --> 59:57.800]  or by ordering online at freestudybible.com.
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[59:59.800 --> 01:00:03.800]  This news brief brought to you by the International News Net.
[01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:09.800]  The U.S. is bolstering its presence in Afghanistan with a $500 million expansion
[01:00:09.800 --> 01:00:13.800]  of its Kabul embassy and the construction of two consulates.
[01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:19.800]  Washington's Kabul embassy is already the biggest in the world with about 1,100 employees.
[01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:25.800]  The construction has been awarded to a U.S. company, Kadol Construction Inc.
[01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:30.800]  In the midst of a cholera outbreak, authorities in Haiti are planning mass evacuations
[01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:35.800]  from tent cities ahead of Hurricane Tomas set to strike Thursday.
[01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:40.800]  1.3 million Haitians, one-tenth of the population, are still living in tent cities
[01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:46.800]  after the January earthquake ravaged the nation killing 300,000 people.
[01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:50.800]  In Pakistan, 12 people were killed Wednesday and three separate,
[01:00:50.800 --> 01:00:53.800]  non-U.N.-sanctioned drone attacks in North Waziristan.
[01:00:53.800 --> 01:00:58.800]  Pakistani officials say the drone fired two missiles at a vehicle leaving five people dead.
[01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:02.800]  Hours later, another attack killed three people in the same region.
[01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:06.800]  In a third attack, a drone fired missiles at a car killing four people.
[01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:12.800]  The death toll is expected to rise as some of the injured are in critical condition.
[01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:16.800]  Yemen is intensifying its military campaign against al-Qaeda,
[01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:21.800]  even though most Yemenis consider the group a myth or a ploy by their president.
[01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:25.800]  The New York Times says those attitudes are complicating efforts
[01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:30.800]  to track down the perpetrators of the recent plot to send explosives by courier to the U.S.
[01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:36.800]  The Times says that view echoed across Yemen is not just a conspiracy theory.
[01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:40.800]  In recent years, the Yemeni government has used jihadists as proxy soldiers
[01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:46.800]  and sometimes conflate the al-Qaeda threat and unrelated political insurgencies.
[01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:51.800]  Abdullah al-Faki, a professor of political science at Sanaa University said,
[01:01:51.800 --> 01:01:57.800]  we cannot differentiate between what is propaganda and what is real.
[01:01:57.800 --> 01:02:02.800]  Daniel Pines, a senior CIA lawyer, asserted recently in a law journal
[01:02:02.800 --> 01:02:06.800]  the CIA's practice of kidnapping alleged terror suspects abroad,
[01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:10.800]  known as extraordinary rendition, is legal under U.S. law
[01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:14.800]  even when the suspect is turned over to countries that practice torture.
[01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:19.800]  One of the lawyers from the American Civil Liberties Union said Pines' article,
[01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:22.800]  quote, does not address the most extreme form of rendition,
[01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:28.800]  renditions to black-site prisons where Americans are the jailers and the torturers,
[01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:31.800]  adding forced disappearance, arbitrary detention,
[01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:35.800]  and torture are prohibited under both U.S. and international law.
[01:02:35.800 --> 01:02:39.800]  Former CIA agent Bob Bayer has said of CIA renditions,
[01:02:39.800 --> 01:02:43.800]  quote, if you want someone really interrogated, you take him to Jordan.
[01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:46.800]  If you want them really abused, you go to Syria.
[01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:50.800]  And if you want them to disappear forever, you take them to Egypt.
[01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:54.800]  14,000 prisoners have been swept up in the global war on terror
[01:02:54.800 --> 01:02:58.800]  and all are being held without charge.
[01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:04.800]  For more details on these stories, visit www.inmworldrecord.net.
[01:03:04.800 --> 01:03:10.800]  You are listening to the Rule of Law Radio Network at ruleoflawradio.com.
[01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:14.800]  And Free Speech Talk Radio at its best.
[01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:41.800]  I'm Bob Bayer.
[01:03:41.800 --> 01:04:03.800]  I'm Bob Bayer.
[01:04:03.800 --> 01:04:20.800]  Okay, folks, we are back.
[01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:23.800]  All right, Karen, and we've got two callers on the line that want to talk to you ladies.
[01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:26.800]  We've got Rob in Connecticut, Richard in Texas.
[01:04:26.800 --> 01:04:29.800]  So we're going to go to your calls in just a moment.
[01:04:29.800 --> 01:04:33.800]  Karen, if you could finish up on what the deal is with Germany.
[01:04:33.800 --> 01:04:37.800]  Yes, and in March of 2009,
[01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:43.800]  there was a decision that was made by the High Constitutional Court in Germany,
[01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:45.800]  which is equivalent to our Supreme Court.
[01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:49.800]  And they were ruling on a case that had been brought before them
[01:04:49.800 --> 01:04:55.800]  about the issue of using electronic voting machines in elections in Germany.
[01:04:55.800 --> 01:05:01.800]  And the court, after it heard arguments from computer scientists and hackers
[01:05:01.800 --> 01:05:04.800]  and people who are very adept with computers
[01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:09.800]  but understand totally that these are not appropriate for use in elections,
[01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:16.800]  the court ruled that the use of electronic voting machines was unconstitutional
[01:05:16.800 --> 01:05:19.800]  because it doesn't meet the requirements for a public election
[01:05:19.800 --> 01:05:26.800]  where the public can actually see the process and know that their votes are being counted correctly.
[01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:32.800]  And then also they said that the process shouldn't be one
[01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:38.800]  in which a voter has to have a certain level of technical expertise
[01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:42.800]  to be able to understand how their vote is being counted.
[01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:50.800]  So what we have now is we have this tiered, you know, we have to believe experts at this point
[01:05:50.800 --> 01:05:53.800]  of, you know, the people who understand computers or whatever,
[01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:57.800]  they supposedly are the ones telling us that everything is fine,
[01:05:57.800 --> 01:06:00.800]  our election officials take on that role.
[01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:07.800]  We as the voters do not, you know, can't understand, can't get, you know,
[01:06:07.800 --> 01:06:09.800]  understand, you know, how these computers work.
[01:06:09.800 --> 01:06:12.800]  But even if you understood them it doesn't negate the fact
[01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:18.800]  that it's not a public count that can be observed.
[01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:20.800]  Therefore in Germany they declared it unconstitutional
[01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:24.800]  and they've also banned the machines in the Netherlands, in Ireland,
[01:06:24.800 --> 01:06:29.800]  and Scotland just has quit using electronic voting machines.
[01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:32.800]  So they realize what the danger is
[01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:35.800]  and Dan Rather just did a great report on HDNET
[01:06:35.800 --> 01:06:41.800]  that covered this movement in Europe going away from the machines for this very reason.
[01:06:41.800 --> 01:06:42.800]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:44.800]  Well it sounds like they've got the right idea.
[01:06:44.800 --> 01:06:45.800]  Yeah.
[01:06:45.800 --> 01:06:46.800]  All right.
[01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:47.800]  Let's go to some calls here.
[01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:49.800]  We've got Richard in Texas and then we'll go to Rob.
[01:06:49.800 --> 01:06:52.800]  Richard, what is your question for Vicki and Karen?
[01:06:52.800 --> 01:06:53.800]  Hey, hi.
[01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:54.800]  Karen and Vicki.
[01:06:54.800 --> 01:06:57.800]  Thank y'all for the first visit.
[01:06:57.800 --> 01:06:58.800]  Richard Reed.
[01:06:58.800 --> 01:06:59.800]  Hey, this is Richard Reed.
[01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:00.800]  How are you doing?
[01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:01.800]  Yeah.
[01:07:01.800 --> 01:07:03.800]  I thought it was.
[01:07:03.800 --> 01:07:05.800]  Good to hear from you, Richard.
[01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:06.800]  I'm sorry?
[01:07:06.800 --> 01:07:08.800]  Good to hear from you.
[01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:10.800]  It's great to hear you guys and I attended a little late.
[01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:12.800]  I missed probably the first 20 minutes of the show,
[01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:18.800]  but what is y'all's take on the situation in Nevada, Clark County?
[01:07:18.800 --> 01:07:23.800]  Well, we've been so busy doing our own people's hand count here in Travis County.
[01:07:23.800 --> 01:07:29.800]  I am not up enough on the details to be able to really give an adequate assessment of it.
[01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:31.800]  Vicki, did you?
[01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:33.800]  I'm afraid I'm in the same boat.
[01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:38.800]  We've had our noses to our grindstone here and I'm just not in a position to assess it.
[01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:44.800]  I know that they were reporting that the machines during early voting were flipping votes.
[01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:52.800]  The machines weren't allowing, I guess, voters for Sharon Engel to hold on to her vote.
[01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:54.800]  They would flip over to Harry Reid.
[01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:56.800]  There were a lot of reports about that.
[01:07:56.800 --> 01:08:03.800]  And I think Bev Harris covered that on Alex Jones' show on Tuesday, I believe.
[01:08:03.800 --> 01:08:05.800]  It was one of the things she was talking about.
[01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:06.800]  But I'm sorry.
[01:08:06.800 --> 01:08:12.800]  We've just been so concentrated or focused on what we've been doing here in Travis County.
[01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:15.800]  We haven't been able to really keep up with that this time.
[01:08:15.800 --> 01:08:19.800]  But I'll just add a comment about the vote flipping on the machines.
[01:08:19.800 --> 01:08:21.800]  That happens all the time.
[01:08:21.800 --> 01:08:25.800]  It happens every time there's an election all across the country with different types of machines.
[01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:30.800]  So when we see reports like that and hear how horrified people are,
[01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:35.800]  it's interesting when it affects people in a certain area, they get all horrified by it.
[01:08:35.800 --> 01:08:36.800]  But it happens all the time.
[01:08:36.800 --> 01:08:38.800]  Everybody needs to know that.
[01:08:38.800 --> 01:08:41.800]  Well, ladies and Richard, stay on the line because, listen,
[01:08:41.800 --> 01:08:47.800]  we've got a caller from Nevada right now calling in about the election situation in Nevada.
[01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:49.800]  This is great.
[01:08:49.800 --> 01:08:51.800]  Debbie in Nevada, what's going on?
[01:08:51.800 --> 01:08:53.800]  What happened out there?
[01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:55.800]  Did you have a first-hand witness account?
[01:08:55.800 --> 01:08:58.800]  Actually, I'm not calling in about that.
[01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:02.800]  Oh, I just asked you if you were calling in about the election stuff in Nevada, and you said yes.
[01:09:02.800 --> 01:09:03.800]  No, I said no.
[01:09:03.800 --> 01:09:04.800]  Oh, okay.
[01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:05.800]  I'm sorry.
[01:09:05.800 --> 01:09:06.800]  All right.
[01:09:06.800 --> 01:09:08.800]  Well, then just hang on the line then because we'll take your call on that other issue,
[01:09:08.800 --> 01:09:10.800]  whatever your other issue is later.
[01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:11.800]  Okay.
[01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:12.800]  Sorry about that, folks.
[01:09:12.800 --> 01:09:17.800]  It's pretty rough having to screen my own calls for my own show and be on the air at the same time.
[01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:18.800]  I can ask a question.
[01:09:18.800 --> 01:09:19.800]  Do the best I can.
[01:09:19.800 --> 01:09:25.800]  Has anybody read the Texas constitutional requisites of the elections?
[01:09:25.800 --> 01:09:31.800]  I have, and you know what it all builds down to?
[01:09:31.800 --> 01:09:37.800]  In essence, it says that the legislature shall protect the purity of the ballot box.
[01:09:37.800 --> 01:09:39.800]  Well, it actually says a little bit more than that.
[01:09:39.800 --> 01:09:43.800]  I've got both the sections here in front of me, and one is elections by ballot,
[01:09:43.800 --> 01:09:47.800]  numbering fraud and purity of elections, registration of voters.
[01:09:47.800 --> 01:09:51.800]  In all elections by the people, the vote shall be by ballot,
[01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:54.800]  and the legislature shall provide for the numbering of tickets
[01:09:54.800 --> 01:09:59.800]  and make such other regulations as may be necessary to detect and punish fraud
[01:09:59.800 --> 01:10:01.800]  and preserve the purity of the ballot box,
[01:10:01.800 --> 01:10:06.800]  and the legislature shall provide bylaw for the registration of all voters.
[01:10:06.800 --> 01:10:08.800]  Well, here's how they get around it, Eddie.
[01:10:08.800 --> 01:10:11.800]  They technically say, or this is what they keep telling us,
[01:10:11.800 --> 01:10:13.800]  and we're just not going to take it anymore.
[01:10:13.800 --> 01:10:16.800]  They say, well, we are providing you with a ballot.
[01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:23.800]  It's an electronic ballot, and I don't know how they get away with not numbering.
[01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:27.800]  You know, that could be the one thing that unhinges this whole thing,
[01:10:27.800 --> 01:10:31.800]  because if you're using paper ballots, you can number the ballots,
[01:10:31.800 --> 01:10:37.800]  and it's important to do that so that you can keep track of how many ballots were used
[01:10:37.800 --> 01:10:44.800]  or not used or were spoiled, but at no time does the number on that piece of paper
[01:10:44.800 --> 01:10:51.800]  get connected to a voter, because the voter actually picks a ballot at random.
[01:10:51.800 --> 01:10:52.800]  Right.
[01:10:52.800 --> 01:10:55.800]  Now, here's the one other thing that goes hand in hand with that,
[01:10:55.800 --> 01:10:58.800]  privilege of voters from arrest.
[01:10:58.800 --> 01:11:02.800]  Voters shall in all cases except treason, felony, or breach of the peace
[01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:05.800]  be privileged from arrest during their attendance at elections
[01:11:05.800 --> 01:11:11.800]  and in going to and returning there from.
[01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:13.800]  Interesting.
[01:11:13.800 --> 01:11:16.800]  So if you got arrested while you were going to get your vote cast, folks,
[01:11:16.800 --> 01:11:19.800]  or from getting your vote cast, we want to talk to you.
[01:11:19.800 --> 01:11:21.800]  Interesting.
[01:11:21.800 --> 01:11:24.800]  Okay, Richard, while we still have you on the line here,
[01:11:24.800 --> 01:11:28.800]  why don't you relay some of the information you have about the Nevada situation,
[01:11:28.800 --> 01:11:31.800]  about this one particular county?
[01:11:31.800 --> 01:11:34.800]  Well, I'll tell you that Clark County, I think that's the epicenter
[01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:37.800]  where we could maybe dismantle this electronic voting,
[01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:44.800]  because basically Karen Angle won 14 out of 17 counties in Nevada,
[01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:49.800]  and one of the counties that she lost, the only lost by I believe it was 33 votes.
[01:11:49.800 --> 01:11:51.800]  Richard.
[01:11:51.800 --> 01:11:55.800]  It boils down to Washington County and Clark County is where the activity
[01:11:55.800 --> 01:11:59.800]  may have been going on, and I'm 99.9% sure it did.
[01:11:59.800 --> 01:12:01.800]  There was fraud.
[01:12:01.800 --> 01:12:03.800]  Richard.
[01:12:03.800 --> 01:12:08.800]  You might let people know that Clark County happens to be Las Vegas.
[01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:10.800]  That's why it's so important.
[01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:14.800]  It's probably the biggest county in the state also, I'd imagine.
[01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:15.800]  Exactly.
[01:12:15.800 --> 01:12:18.800]  There's a big tail that wags the dogs there, no doubt.
[01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:19.800]  Yeah.
[01:12:19.800 --> 01:12:23.800]  But the other thing to really look at is you had a Republican candidate for governor
[01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:27.800]  that won the statewide governor's race.
[01:12:27.800 --> 01:12:30.800]  So are we really supposed to believe that in this environment
[01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:33.800]  with the high unemployment in Nevada,
[01:12:33.800 --> 01:12:38.800]  with the anger towards the Obama administration, the Obamacare,
[01:12:38.800 --> 01:12:41.800]  all this stuff, are we really supposed to believe, you know,
[01:12:41.800 --> 01:12:43.800]  with so many people upside down on their mortgages
[01:12:43.800 --> 01:12:45.800]  and being foreclosed upon in Nevada,
[01:12:45.800 --> 01:12:49.800]  are we supposed to believe that that many people that voted for Brian Sandoval
[01:12:49.800 --> 01:12:55.800]  for governor actually flipped over to Harry Reid in this race?
[01:12:55.800 --> 01:12:56.800]  Good point.
[01:12:56.800 --> 01:13:00.800]  Not to mention Barbara Boxer in California.
[01:13:00.800 --> 01:13:01.800]  Well, what happened there?
[01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:04.800]  I also haven't heard about that.
[01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:08.800]  Yeah, she won her re-election in California,
[01:13:08.800 --> 01:13:12.800]  and I failed to see how that would even be humanly possible.
[01:13:12.800 --> 01:13:15.800]  You mean she was re-selected.
[01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:18.800]  Something like that, yeah.
[01:13:18.800 --> 01:13:22.800]  I got one last thing, and I'll get off the phone here.
[01:13:22.800 --> 01:13:24.800]  Go ahead.
[01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:28.800]  This issue of the manpower to count the votes at the precincts there,
[01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:31.800]  the paper ballots, you guys are easily two steps ahead of me,
[01:13:31.800 --> 01:13:34.800]  but I was thinking maybe one solution might be,
[01:13:34.800 --> 01:13:39.800]  is this is going to be a public counting of the votes at the precincts,
[01:13:39.800 --> 01:13:43.800]  so presumably you would have people from that very precinct come up
[01:13:43.800 --> 01:13:45.800]  and watch the counting,
[01:13:45.800 --> 01:13:49.800]  and what they could do is have a little drawing to solicit volunteers
[01:13:49.800 --> 01:13:52.800]  for the counting out of that pool of precinct voters
[01:13:52.800 --> 01:13:55.800]  that come there to watch the counting.
[01:13:55.800 --> 01:13:58.800]  Well, that's one way of doing it that could possibly work,
[01:13:58.800 --> 01:14:03.800]  and one of the ideas that we've thrown out there many times is to have a,
[01:14:03.800 --> 01:14:05.800]  just the way they do jury selection,
[01:14:05.800 --> 01:14:11.800]  to have a mandatory vote counting service that you get paid for,
[01:14:11.800 --> 01:14:13.800]  but you have to show up and do it every so often,
[01:14:13.800 --> 01:14:15.800]  and what's wrong with that?
[01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:17.800]  I mean, that would take care of it right there.
[01:14:17.800 --> 01:14:20.800]  And another aspect, Richard, that we were trying to illustrate
[01:14:20.800 --> 01:14:24.800]  or demonstrate on Tuesday with our, the people's hand count
[01:14:24.800 --> 01:14:28.800]  that we did down at City Hall, we brought in musicians.
[01:14:28.800 --> 01:14:30.800]  We brought in food.
[01:14:30.800 --> 01:14:36.800]  We wanted to show people that elections are a community bonding event,
[01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:41.800]  and you want to know who your neighbors are, and you want to pitch in.
[01:14:41.800 --> 01:14:46.800]  You want to handle, you know, your neighbor's vote because it's very sacred,
[01:14:46.800 --> 01:14:50.800]  and there should be a, people should be, well, from our point of view,
[01:14:50.800 --> 01:14:53.800]  people should be clamoring to want to do this.
[01:14:53.800 --> 01:14:56.800]  And I think if they understood what was at stake
[01:14:56.800 --> 01:14:59.800]  and that it was important that these public counts happen,
[01:14:59.800 --> 01:15:06.800]  that we would have, we wouldn't have a lack of people participating
[01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:09.800]  to help with the counting.
[01:15:09.800 --> 01:15:10.800]  Absolutely.
[01:15:10.800 --> 01:15:12.800]  Hey, thanks for y'all's continued work, okay?
[01:15:12.800 --> 01:15:13.800]  Thank you, Richard.
[01:15:13.800 --> 01:15:15.800]  Thanks for all your support.
[01:15:15.800 --> 01:15:21.800]  Yeah, you couldn't stay off the air for one day, could you, Richard?
[01:15:21.800 --> 01:15:25.800]  I'm giving Richard a hard time because he, because, oh, he dropped off the line.
[01:15:25.800 --> 01:15:29.800]  I'm giving Richard a hard time because he retired from radio yesterday
[01:15:29.800 --> 01:15:31.800]  with his last show and he called in tonight.
[01:15:31.800 --> 01:15:33.800]  Oh, I didn't know that.
[01:15:33.800 --> 01:15:35.800]  Yeah, so I told him he couldn't stay off the air for one day.
[01:15:35.800 --> 01:15:38.800]  We'll see, we'll see how long it takes for him to come back.
[01:15:38.800 --> 01:15:39.800]  We love Richard.
[01:15:39.800 --> 01:15:43.800]  Okay, so ladies, all right, we're about to go to break.
[01:15:43.800 --> 01:15:46.800]  We do have one more caller that has a question for you.
[01:15:46.800 --> 01:15:49.800]  Rob in Connecticut, what is your question for Karen and Vicki?
[01:15:49.800 --> 01:15:51.800]  Oh, I don't have a question.
[01:15:51.800 --> 01:15:52.800]  I don't have a question.
[01:15:52.800 --> 01:15:55.800]  I was just calling in to let them know what's going on here in Connecticut.
[01:15:55.800 --> 01:15:56.800]  Okay, go ahead.
[01:15:56.800 --> 01:16:03.800]  Now, the governor's race is totally being disputed now.
[01:16:03.800 --> 01:16:06.800]  Now, I'm with CTVotersCount.org.
[01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:07.800]  I thought you were, Rob.
[01:16:07.800 --> 01:16:10.800]  Yes, I've been following your organization.
[01:16:10.800 --> 01:16:11.800]  You guys are doing great work
[01:16:11.800 --> 01:16:13.800]  and you're one of those groups that does go in
[01:16:13.800 --> 01:16:17.800]  and tries to make sure that they are performing the audits they're supposed to be,
[01:16:17.800 --> 01:16:18.800]  but you're finding out they're not.
[01:16:18.800 --> 01:16:20.800]  Is that right?
[01:16:20.800 --> 01:16:26.800]  They're, well, I did the last audit for our primary election a couple months ago,
[01:16:26.800 --> 01:16:34.800]  and I did two of them, and they were not very, like, enthusiastic.
[01:16:34.800 --> 01:16:38.800]  They never asked for the extra work that they've got to go in and do.
[01:16:38.800 --> 01:16:40.800]  Rob, we're about to go to break.
[01:16:40.800 --> 01:16:41.800]  Why don't you stay on the line right here,
[01:16:41.800 --> 01:16:43.800]  and you can speak some more with Vic and Karen on the other side.
[01:16:43.800 --> 01:16:45.800]  We'll finish up with Vic and Karen.
[01:16:45.800 --> 01:16:48.800]  We've got some other callers coming in about, calling in about other issues,
[01:16:48.800 --> 01:16:50.800]  Charles and Mary.
[01:16:50.800 --> 01:16:51.800]  Just stay on the line,
[01:16:51.800 --> 01:16:55.800]  and we will be finished with Vic and Karen on the other side shortly.
[01:16:55.800 --> 01:17:01.800]  We'll be right back, folks.
[01:17:01.800 --> 01:17:04.800]  Capital Coin and Bullion is your local source for rare coins, precious metals,
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[01:17:11.800 --> 01:17:13.800]  on your coin and metal purchases.
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[01:17:24.800 --> 01:17:27.800]  We are located at 5448 Burnett Road, Suite 3,
[01:17:27.800 --> 01:17:29.800]  at the corner of Burnett and Showmark,
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[01:17:33.800 --> 01:17:36.800]  You are welcome to stop in our shop during regular business hours
[01:17:36.800 --> 01:17:41.800]  or call 512-646-6440 with any questions.
[01:17:41.800 --> 01:17:45.800]  Ask for Chad and say you heard about us on Google Law Radio or Texas Liberty Radio.
[01:17:45.800 --> 01:17:48.800]  That's Capital Coin and Bullion at the corner of Burnett and Showmark,
[01:17:48.800 --> 01:17:52.800]  and we're open Mondays through Fridays 10 to 6, Saturdays 10 to 5.
[01:17:52.800 --> 01:17:59.800]  That's Capital Coin and Bullion, 512-646-6440.
[01:17:59.800 --> 01:18:02.800]  It is so enlightening to listen to 90.1 FM,
[01:18:02.800 --> 01:18:05.800]  but finding things on the Internet isn't so easy,
[01:18:05.800 --> 01:18:08.800]  and neither is finding like-minded people to share it with.
[01:18:08.800 --> 01:18:11.800]  Oh, well, I guess you haven't heard of Brave New Books, then.
[01:18:11.800 --> 01:18:12.800]  Brave New Books?
[01:18:12.800 --> 01:18:16.800]  Yes, Brave New Books has all the books and DVDs you're looking for
[01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:19.800]  by authors like Alex Jones, Ron Paul, Angie Edward Griffin.
[01:18:19.800 --> 01:18:23.800]  They even stock inner food, Berkey products, and Calvin Soaps.
[01:18:23.800 --> 01:18:26.800]  There's no way a place like that exists.
[01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:27.800]  Go check it out for yourself.
[01:18:27.800 --> 01:18:31.800]  It's downtown at 1904 Guadalupe Street, just south of UT.
[01:18:31.800 --> 01:18:35.800]  Oh, by UT, there's never anywhere to park down there.
[01:18:35.800 --> 01:18:37.800]  Actually, they now offer a free hour of parking
[01:18:37.800 --> 01:18:41.800]  for paying customers at the 500 MLK parking facility
[01:18:41.800 --> 01:18:43.800]  just behind the bookstore.
[01:18:43.800 --> 01:18:46.800]  It does exist, but when are they open?
[01:18:46.800 --> 01:18:51.800]  Monday through Saturday, 11 AM to 9 PM, and 1 to 6 PM on Sundays.
[01:18:51.800 --> 01:18:55.800]  So give them a call at 512-480-2503,
[01:18:55.800 --> 01:19:03.800]  or check out their events page at bravenewbookstore.com.
[01:19:03.800 --> 01:19:09.800]  Ain't gonna blame me
[01:19:09.800 --> 01:19:16.800]  Don't blame me
[01:19:16.800 --> 01:19:20.800]  Well
[01:19:20.800 --> 01:19:25.800]  Ain't gonna fool me with that same old trick again
[01:19:25.800 --> 01:19:30.800]  I was blindsided, but now I can see your plan
[01:19:30.800 --> 01:19:33.800]  You put the fear in my pocket
[01:19:33.800 --> 01:19:35.800]  Took the money from my hand
[01:19:35.800 --> 01:19:43.800]  Ain't gonna fool me with that same old trick again
[01:19:43.800 --> 01:19:59.800]  Ain't gonna fool me
[01:19:59.800 --> 01:20:01.800]  Okay, folks, we are back.
[01:20:01.800 --> 01:20:03.800]  We're finishing up here.
[01:20:03.800 --> 01:20:06.800]  Vicki had to go, but we've still got Karen,
[01:20:06.800 --> 01:20:09.800]  and we are speaking with Rob in Connecticut.
[01:20:09.800 --> 01:20:11.800]  Okay, please continue, Rob.
[01:20:11.800 --> 01:20:16.800]  Okay, not only do I do the auditing of the machines
[01:20:16.800 --> 01:20:19.800]  after the elections, but also on election night,
[01:20:19.800 --> 01:20:21.800]  I work for Edison Research,
[01:20:21.800 --> 01:20:25.800]  and I get paid by them to phone in the results.
[01:20:25.800 --> 01:20:29.800]  And these are the results that you get on CNN, Fox, ABC,
[01:20:29.800 --> 01:20:31.800]  Associated Press, etc.
[01:20:31.800 --> 01:20:35.800]  And now the big controversy here in Connecticut
[01:20:35.800 --> 01:20:38.800]  is the governor's race.
[01:20:38.800 --> 01:20:42.800]  Everyone declared, based on the early numbers,
[01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:48.800]  that the Democrat, Dan Malloy, was the winner.
[01:20:48.800 --> 01:20:51.800]  And the secretary of state here, Susan Vichowich,
[01:20:51.800 --> 01:20:53.800]  also declared him the winner.
[01:20:53.800 --> 01:20:56.800]  But there were a lot of precincts that were having problems,
[01:20:56.800 --> 01:20:58.800]  like Bridgeport is the biggest city in Connecticut,
[01:20:58.800 --> 01:21:01.800]  and they kept their polls open two more hours
[01:21:01.800 --> 01:21:03.800]  because they ran out of ballots.
[01:21:03.800 --> 01:21:05.800]  And there were a couple other places that kept the polls open
[01:21:05.800 --> 01:21:07.800]  late for the same reason.
[01:21:07.800 --> 01:21:11.800]  But the Republican, Tom Foley, was still ahead,
[01:21:11.800 --> 01:21:13.800]  but they were still declaring Malloy the winner.
[01:21:13.800 --> 01:21:20.800]  And as of this morning, the vote totals were 552,000 for Foley,
[01:21:20.800 --> 01:21:25.800]  the Republican, and 543,000 for Malloy, the Democrat.
[01:21:25.800 --> 01:21:28.800]  And by the way, Susan Vichowich is also a Democrat,
[01:21:28.800 --> 01:21:31.800]  so she declared the Democrat the winner.
[01:21:31.800 --> 01:21:37.800]  Now, the Associated Press has withdrawn that declaration
[01:21:37.800 --> 01:21:39.800]  from their news service.
[01:21:39.800 --> 01:21:42.800]  They are now saying, no, we're not going to declare that.
[01:21:42.800 --> 01:21:43.800]  Malloy is the winner.
[01:21:43.800 --> 01:21:47.800]  Now, in the town of Griswold, Connecticut, for example,
[01:21:47.800 --> 01:21:51.800]  this is another thing that messes up the whole ballot issue in Connecticut.
[01:21:51.800 --> 01:21:54.800]  There is something called the Working Families Party,
[01:21:54.800 --> 01:21:58.800]  which is the result of ACORN.
[01:21:58.800 --> 01:22:00.800]  So ACORN is behind this Working Families Party.
[01:22:00.800 --> 01:22:03.800]  And what this does, it allows candidates to get their names on the ballot twice.
[01:22:03.800 --> 01:22:06.800]  It's called cross endorsement, which I totally disagree with.
[01:22:06.800 --> 01:22:09.800]  Now, if you're going to run for office, you get your name on the ballot once,
[01:22:09.800 --> 01:22:10.800]  and that's it.
[01:22:10.800 --> 01:22:13.800]  But across the board, Working Families Parties,
[01:22:13.800 --> 01:22:16.800]  they get the Democrat candidate also.
[01:22:16.800 --> 01:22:20.800]  So any Democrat automatically gets their name on the ballot twice.
[01:22:20.800 --> 01:22:23.800]  Now, when we report in the vote totals,
[01:22:23.800 --> 01:22:26.800]  we have to add up the two totals from both the Democrat
[01:22:26.800 --> 01:22:28.800]  and the Working Families Party.
[01:22:28.800 --> 01:22:32.800]  In the town of Griswold, the totals for Malloy, the Democrat,
[01:22:32.800 --> 01:22:38.800]  were 1,497 Democratic votes, 97 Working Families votes.
[01:22:38.800 --> 01:22:44.800]  Well, you had 1,497 plus 97, and that total is 1,594.
[01:22:44.800 --> 01:22:50.800]  But it was reported as 2,467, and that's just one issue right there
[01:22:50.800 --> 01:22:56.800]  that they had a bad number of, what, 700, 800 votes.
[01:22:56.800 --> 01:22:59.800]  Now, this is going to be a big mess,
[01:22:59.800 --> 01:23:03.800]  and this is going to be going on for probably a few weeks here in Connecticut.
[01:23:03.800 --> 01:23:06.800]  Sounds like a bunch of lawsuits are in order here.
[01:23:06.800 --> 01:23:08.800]  Oh, and there's one other thing.
[01:23:08.800 --> 01:23:09.800]  This is from two years ago.
[01:23:09.800 --> 01:23:12.800]  If you just go to Ixquick and put in,
[01:23:12.800 --> 01:23:17.800]  D-Bold Comes Clean admits that its e-voting machines are faulty.
[01:23:17.800 --> 01:23:19.800]  That's the title of an article.
[01:23:19.800 --> 01:23:23.800]  But here's the kicker, and if it wasn't so sad, it is funny, though.
[01:23:23.800 --> 01:23:30.800]  The spokesman for D-Bold, his last name is Rig Al.
[01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:34.800]  Yeah, it's just like, you know, when the guy, his name is Cash Carry,
[01:23:34.800 --> 01:23:39.800]  that goes and talks about, you know, what happened with the bailouts.
[01:23:39.800 --> 01:23:40.800]  Exactly.
[01:23:40.800 --> 01:23:43.800]  All right, so Rob, can you kind of wrap it up?
[01:23:43.800 --> 01:23:45.800]  We've got one more caller that wants to talk to Karen,
[01:23:45.800 --> 01:23:47.800]  and there's other callers that want to talk about other stuff, too.
[01:23:47.800 --> 01:23:49.800]  Oh, yeah, one last thing.
[01:23:49.800 --> 01:23:53.800]  The Germany issue, we've got to take hold of what worked in Germany
[01:23:53.800 --> 01:23:54.800]  and do it here.
[01:23:54.800 --> 01:23:57.800]  We've got to start some legal actions based on the same things that worked in Germany,
[01:23:57.800 --> 01:24:01.800]  because that does get right down to the issue of real voting
[01:24:01.800 --> 01:24:04.800]  that everyday people can see is honest.
[01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:09.800]  Those determinations can be used as precedent here.
[01:24:09.800 --> 01:24:11.800]  Well, there is a lawsuit, Rob.
[01:24:11.800 --> 01:24:14.800]  You're probably familiar with Bob Schultz's suit in New York State.
[01:24:14.800 --> 01:24:16.800]  Have you been following that?
[01:24:16.800 --> 01:24:17.800]  Not really.
[01:24:17.800 --> 01:24:21.800]  Because he does have a lawsuit that will be going to trial next year,
[01:24:21.800 --> 01:24:26.800]  and he has actually spoken to the people, the plaintiffs, in the German decision
[01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:28.800]  or in that German case,
[01:24:28.800 --> 01:24:34.800]  and it is going to try to base his case on, you know,
[01:24:34.800 --> 01:24:40.800]  what is the method of voting that is totally observable in public
[01:24:40.800 --> 01:24:43.800]  and meets the constitutional requirements of elections.
[01:24:43.800 --> 01:24:44.800]  That's excellent.
[01:24:44.800 --> 01:24:47.800]  His case is very important, and we need to start every time,
[01:24:47.800 --> 01:24:51.800]  you know, getting the word out about that and helping and support him.
[01:24:51.800 --> 01:24:54.800]  He's really doing this on his own,
[01:24:54.800 --> 01:24:59.800]  and it could be the equivalent of the German decision.
[01:24:59.800 --> 01:25:04.800]  Yeah, well, it also sounds like this whole thing, you know, in Las Vegas,
[01:25:04.800 --> 01:25:06.800]  what happened with Sharon Angle,
[01:25:06.800 --> 01:25:09.800]  that that could be what will blow this whole thing wide open as well.
[01:25:09.800 --> 01:25:10.800]  Okay, Rob, thank you.
[01:25:10.800 --> 01:25:11.800]  Thanks, Rob.
[01:25:11.800 --> 01:25:12.800]  We'd love to talk to you more,
[01:25:12.800 --> 01:25:15.800]  but we've got to move on because we have one other caller for Karen,
[01:25:15.800 --> 01:25:17.800]  and then we have to take the other calls.
[01:25:17.800 --> 01:25:18.800]  Okay, good night.
[01:25:18.800 --> 01:25:19.800]  Okay, thanks.
[01:25:19.800 --> 01:25:20.800]  Bye, Rob.
[01:25:20.800 --> 01:25:22.800]  Okay, we've got Elizabeth in Texas who wants to speak with Karen.
[01:25:22.800 --> 01:25:24.800]  Elizabeth, thanks for calling in.
[01:25:24.800 --> 01:25:27.800]  What is your question for Karen, or what is your comment on the election?
[01:25:27.800 --> 01:25:33.800]  Hi, I sure appreciate you taking my call, and you ladies are amazing.
[01:25:33.800 --> 01:25:38.800]  I've got to say hats off to you.
[01:25:38.800 --> 01:25:47.800]  The reason I'm calling is I thought that I heard Beb Harris on a radio show,
[01:25:47.800 --> 01:25:51.800]  I thought it was today, could have been yesterday,
[01:25:51.800 --> 01:25:57.800]  say that there were some court cases now that had,
[01:25:57.800 --> 01:26:06.800]  or rulings that had disallowed the secrecy of the programming.
[01:26:06.800 --> 01:26:08.800]  And I may have misunderstood her.
[01:26:08.800 --> 01:26:14.800]  She didn't use that word, but the programming of the voting machine,
[01:26:14.800 --> 01:26:18.800]  at least in Travis County, is secret, correct?
[01:26:18.800 --> 01:26:20.800]  It's actually secret in the whole state.
[01:26:20.800 --> 01:26:21.800]  That's part of the Texas election code.
[01:26:21.800 --> 01:26:23.800]  Karen?
[01:26:23.800 --> 01:26:26.800]  Are we talking about the secrecy of the ballot?
[01:26:26.800 --> 01:26:32.800]  I think you know she's talking about the proprietary nature of the software.
[01:26:32.800 --> 01:26:33.800]  Yeah, the trade secret.
[01:26:33.800 --> 01:26:36.800]  Yes, the fact that these programs are protected,
[01:26:36.800 --> 01:26:41.800]  and typically election officials and most people can't see them.
[01:26:41.800 --> 01:26:43.800]  It's only in a few states where they have actually gone out
[01:26:43.800 --> 01:26:47.800]  and demanded from the vendors that their programs be made available
[01:26:47.800 --> 01:26:52.800]  so they could be evaluated and looked at by computer scientists.
[01:26:52.800 --> 01:26:55.800]  And the reports based on those reviews are scathing,
[01:26:55.800 --> 01:27:00.800]  and that's why California dropped the use of the direct record electronic machines.
[01:27:00.800 --> 01:27:05.800]  Now Elizabeth, if these are state cases that you're mentioning in other states,
[01:27:05.800 --> 01:27:08.800]  I don't know how much of that we could import into Texas,
[01:27:08.800 --> 01:27:11.800]  but if there are federal rulings, especially from high courts,
[01:27:11.800 --> 01:27:13.800]  or especially if we get a Supreme Court,
[01:27:13.800 --> 01:27:17.800]  U.S. Supreme Court ruling that says that we can no longer,
[01:27:17.800 --> 01:27:21.800]  that they can no longer have proprietary software for these machines,
[01:27:21.800 --> 01:27:24.800]  then that would strike down that section of the Texas election code,
[01:27:24.800 --> 01:27:27.800]  but that is part of the Texas election code right now.
[01:27:27.800 --> 01:27:33.800]  I didn't realize that, but what I understood from Bev that there had been some rulings
[01:27:33.800 --> 01:27:40.800]  that had opened up the door for essentially forensic audits,
[01:27:40.800 --> 01:27:45.800]  and I was wanting to know a little bit more about that.
[01:27:45.800 --> 01:27:49.800]  Yeah, Elizabeth, you might be, I know in Arizona there is a group out there
[01:27:49.800 --> 01:27:54.800]  that has been doing tremendous work about the legality
[01:27:54.800 --> 01:28:00.800]  of having access to all of the audit logs and all of the,
[01:28:00.800 --> 01:28:04.800]  to be able to examine the reports from these machines,
[01:28:04.800 --> 01:28:12.800]  and because of that they are proving that certain measures that have passed out there,
[01:28:12.800 --> 01:28:15.800]  like for bonds, for roads and things,
[01:28:15.800 --> 01:28:21.800]  it looks as if maybe there was a lot of fraud that has been going on out there.
[01:28:21.800 --> 01:28:25.800]  That might be one of the cases that she's talking about.
[01:28:25.800 --> 01:28:28.800]  Yeah, I would be interested in hearing some more about that as well.
[01:28:28.800 --> 01:28:34.800]  What this does though, when you start saying we have to see the internal workings of this machine
[01:28:34.800 --> 01:28:38.800]  so we can look at these things, you know what that opens up the door is,
[01:28:38.800 --> 01:28:43.800]  then we start talking about, well, if the software could be open source,
[01:28:43.800 --> 01:28:45.800]  then everything would be fine.
[01:28:45.800 --> 01:28:46.800]  Be okay, yeah.
[01:28:46.800 --> 01:28:49.800]  And then we're just going to fall back into another false solution,
[01:28:49.800 --> 01:28:53.800]  because even with open source you're still talking about secret vote counting.
[01:28:53.800 --> 01:28:54.800]  Yes, exactly.
[01:28:54.800 --> 01:28:59.800]  And how we talked on the break concerning the paper ballots with the optical scanners,
[01:28:59.800 --> 01:29:05.800]  if we say, well, we insist that they also be counted by hand to compare the results,
[01:29:05.800 --> 01:29:08.800]  well, then they'll just have a few elections where it's accurate and say,
[01:29:08.800 --> 01:29:10.800]  see, we don't need to count them by hand.
[01:29:10.800 --> 01:29:14.800]  So you guys are full of it, and then they'll blow the whole idea off,
[01:29:14.800 --> 01:29:16.800]  and then as soon as the idea has gotten rid of,
[01:29:16.800 --> 01:29:18.800]  then they'll go back to just doing whatever they want.
[01:29:18.800 --> 01:29:20.800]  So yeah, it's all or nothing, people.
[01:29:20.800 --> 01:29:24.800]  It's just like with Floyd, you either get it out of the water or not.
[01:29:24.800 --> 01:29:27.800]  It's like we either have proper elections or not.
[01:29:27.800 --> 01:29:30.800]  Listen, we're about to go to another break, and we really need to move on.
[01:29:30.800 --> 01:29:31.800]  Elizabeth, thank you for calling in.
[01:29:31.800 --> 01:29:33.800]  Karen, any last thoughts?
[01:29:33.800 --> 01:29:37.800]  I did want to just say a silver lining to the work that we did at the county level
[01:29:37.800 --> 01:29:41.800]  with the study group is that we did find other groups out there
[01:29:41.800 --> 01:29:43.800]  to start our hand count coalition.
[01:29:43.800 --> 01:29:46.800]  That's where we formed our core, and now we're growing.
[01:29:46.800 --> 01:29:48.800]  So if there are any groups out there in Texas
[01:29:48.800 --> 01:29:51.800]  or even in the country that want to join with us, we welcome you.
[01:29:51.800 --> 01:29:53.800]  All right, folks, go to VoteRescue.org.
[01:29:53.800 --> 01:29:59.800]  We'll be back, and we'll take Charles and Mary on the other side.
[01:29:59.800 --> 01:30:02.800]  Top ten reasons to question the official story of the Oklahoma City bombing,
[01:30:02.800 --> 01:30:03.800]  reason number five.
[01:30:03.800 --> 01:30:06.800]  As witnessed by millions of viewers, the rescue efforts were interrupted
[01:30:06.800 --> 01:30:09.800]  several times due to the presence of other explosives.
[01:30:09.800 --> 01:30:12.800]  Government log entries indicate and witnesses report that after the initial
[01:30:12.800 --> 01:30:16.800]  devastating blast, a bomb complete with timer was discovered and removed
[01:30:16.800 --> 01:30:17.800]  and wreckage by the bomb squad.
[01:30:17.800 --> 01:30:21.800]  Yet we are told it's all due to baseless bomb scares or other contrivances.
[01:30:21.800 --> 01:30:24.800]  So while officials try to sort out their stories, all we ask is,
[01:30:24.800 --> 01:30:27.800]  who planted these bombs and why is the government lying about them?
[01:30:27.800 --> 01:30:32.800]  For more information, go to okcbombingtruth.com.
[01:30:32.800 --> 01:30:34.800]  CPR just got a whole lot easier.
[01:30:34.800 --> 01:30:38.800]  New guidelines skip mouth to mouth and go right for the chest compressions.
[01:30:38.800 --> 01:30:41.800]  It's not only less yucky, it saves more lives.
[01:30:41.800 --> 01:30:46.800]  I'm Dr. Catherine Albrecht, and I'll be back in a moment with more on hands-only CPR.
[01:30:46.800 --> 01:30:48.800]  Privacy is under attack.
[01:30:48.800 --> 01:30:52.800]  When you give up data about yourself, you'll never get it back again.
[01:30:52.800 --> 01:30:57.800]  And once your privacy is gone, you'll find your freedoms will start to vanish too.
[01:30:57.800 --> 01:30:58.800]  So protect your rights.
[01:30:58.800 --> 01:31:02.800]  Say no to surveillance and keep your information to yourself.
[01:31:02.800 --> 01:31:04.800]  Privacy, it's worth hanging on to.
[01:31:04.800 --> 01:31:08.800]  This public service announcement is brought to you by startpage.com,
[01:31:08.800 --> 01:31:12.800]  the private search engine alternative to Google, Yahoo, and Bing.
[01:31:12.800 --> 01:31:15.800]  Start over with startpage.
[01:31:15.800 --> 01:31:18.800]  Being a hero just got a whole lot easier.
[01:31:18.800 --> 01:31:22.800]  CPR experts say mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is no longer needed.
[01:31:22.800 --> 01:31:24.800]  You can stick to just chest compressions.
[01:31:24.800 --> 01:31:28.800]  Hands-only CPR is not only less personal, it's actually more effective,
[01:31:28.800 --> 01:31:32.800]  saving 62 percent more patients than the old method.
[01:31:32.800 --> 01:31:35.800]  That's because hands-only CPR makes bystanders more likely to help
[01:31:35.800 --> 01:31:38.800]  rather than hesitate at the thought of mouth-to-mouth contact.
[01:31:38.800 --> 01:31:40.800]  As a former CPR instructor myself,
[01:31:40.800 --> 01:31:44.800]  I know that immediate continuous chest compressions are the key to saving lives.
[01:31:44.800 --> 01:31:46.800]  So this is especially good news.
[01:31:46.800 --> 01:31:48.800]  So get ready to be someone's hero.
[01:31:48.800 --> 01:31:52.800]  Learn more and find a CPR class at AmericanHeart.org.
[01:31:52.800 --> 01:31:53.800]  I'm Dr. Catherine Albrecht.
[01:31:53.800 --> 01:32:02.800]  More news and information at CatherineAlbrecht.com.
[01:32:02.800 --> 01:32:17.800]  Okay, folks, we are back.
[01:32:17.800 --> 01:32:18.800]  We're taking your call.
[01:32:18.800 --> 01:32:21.800]  Charles from Michigan, Mary from Texas.
[01:32:21.800 --> 01:32:23.800]  Thank you for hanging on the line so patiently.
[01:32:23.800 --> 01:32:25.800]  We're going to Charles first.
[01:32:25.800 --> 01:32:26.800]  Okay, Charles, thank you for calling in.
[01:32:26.800 --> 01:32:28.800]  What's on your mind tonight?
[01:32:28.800 --> 01:32:29.800]  How are you tonight?
[01:32:29.800 --> 01:32:30.800]  Pretty good.
[01:32:30.800 --> 01:32:36.800]  Look, I'm here in Washtenaw County, Michigan, and I'm engaged.
[01:32:36.800 --> 01:32:41.800]  I'm trying to engage in a pro se litigation about privacy.
[01:32:41.800 --> 01:32:44.800]  Oddly enough, you guys have that commercial.
[01:32:44.800 --> 01:32:49.800]  But I heard you guys, I heard Brandy on the Alex Jones show the other day.
[01:32:49.800 --> 01:32:54.800]  I figured that you guys would be the perfect people to contact.
[01:32:54.800 --> 01:32:56.800]  I'm trying to engage in this litigation,
[01:32:56.800 --> 01:33:02.800]  and they won't let me file this lawsuit without putting my name and address on the lawsuit,
[01:33:02.800 --> 01:33:06.800]  which it defeats the whole purpose of my lawsuit.
[01:33:06.800 --> 01:33:11.800]  And there have been plenty of cases where there have been pseudonyms used in cases,
[01:33:11.800 --> 01:33:18.800]  and I wanted to know why this particular magistrate won't let me do this.
[01:33:18.800 --> 01:33:20.800]  Brandy, are you there?
[01:33:20.800 --> 01:33:29.800]  Are you asking us to tell you why a particular magistrate made a figure of decision?
[01:33:29.800 --> 01:33:32.800]  I need a whole lot more information.
[01:33:32.800 --> 01:33:38.800]  Well, what's happened is I'm doing a pro se litigation against the Gangstop
[01:33:38.800 --> 01:33:46.800]  for they want me to give my information in order for me to get a refund when I paid in cash.
[01:33:46.800 --> 01:33:49.800]  Wait, refund for what?
[01:33:49.800 --> 01:33:59.800]  For an item I bought, it was one part merchandise was still in the package with the receipt.
[01:33:59.800 --> 01:34:02.800]  Okay, wait, you're being cryptic.
[01:34:02.800 --> 01:34:07.800]  Why would they reimburse you for something you bought?
[01:34:07.800 --> 01:34:13.800]  Their store policy and this store clerk told me to go ahead and purchase this particular item,
[01:34:13.800 --> 01:34:16.800]  and if I didn't want it, just bring it on back.
[01:34:16.800 --> 01:34:18.800]  And they proceed to give me my money back.
[01:34:18.800 --> 01:34:22.800]  Does this have to do with the fact that they're trying to get personal data out of you
[01:34:22.800 --> 01:34:25.800]  in order to give you your money back when you return an item?
[01:34:25.800 --> 01:34:26.800]  Exactly.
[01:34:26.800 --> 01:34:29.800]  Okay, and did you pay cash for this item?
[01:34:29.800 --> 01:34:30.800]  With the cash.
[01:34:30.800 --> 01:34:34.800]  Okay, so you pay cash for the item, and you're bringing the item back,
[01:34:34.800 --> 01:34:38.800]  and you have the receipt, and you want your cash back,
[01:34:38.800 --> 01:34:44.800]  and they don't want to give you your money back unless you give them a whole slew of personal information.
[01:34:44.800 --> 01:34:46.800]  Is that what the situation is?
[01:34:46.800 --> 01:34:47.800]  That's exactly what the situation is.
[01:34:47.800 --> 01:34:50.800]  Okay, so Randy, do you understand a little bit better now what's going on?
[01:34:50.800 --> 01:34:53.800]  And he didn't want to give it to them, and the problem is if you sue them,
[01:34:53.800 --> 01:34:56.800]  then you're going to end up giving them a whole bunch of personal information
[01:34:56.800 --> 01:35:00.800]  because you can't usually sue as an anonymous entity.
[01:35:00.800 --> 01:35:07.800]  There are some times where you can keep the anonymity of a plaintiff hidden for whatever reason,
[01:35:07.800 --> 01:35:09.800]  but I don't know in this case.
[01:35:09.800 --> 01:35:12.800]  Randy, do you have any ideas on this?
[01:35:12.800 --> 01:35:17.800]  Don't know how you will get by that.
[01:35:17.800 --> 01:35:22.800]  When you accuse a person and bring him into court,
[01:35:22.800 --> 01:35:27.800]  he has a constitutional right to know who's accusing him.
[01:35:27.800 --> 01:35:31.800]  I don't see how you're going to get past that one.
[01:35:31.800 --> 01:35:41.800]  Okay, because I did see a whole slew of court cases where there were some anonymous...
[01:35:41.800 --> 01:35:43.800]  Was the plaintiff anonymous?
[01:35:43.800 --> 01:35:46.800]  The plaintiff, yeah, the plaintiff was anonymous.
[01:35:46.800 --> 01:35:49.800]  They called it the plaintiff using a pseudonym.
[01:35:49.800 --> 01:35:55.800]  I submitted a brief to the magistrate, the one who's blocking me from this,
[01:35:55.800 --> 01:35:58.800]  and there's more than ten...
[01:35:58.800 --> 01:36:02.800]  What was the nature of the exclusion?
[01:36:02.800 --> 01:36:06.800]  Because we're going to what appears to be a constitutional issue here.
[01:36:06.800 --> 01:36:13.800]  So I would expect if a court ruled on this denial,
[01:36:13.800 --> 01:36:18.800]  it's a lot easier since it's a civil action and not criminal,
[01:36:18.800 --> 01:36:24.800]  but it would seem to take a lot to overcome a constitutional requirement.
[01:36:24.800 --> 01:36:28.800]  So these cases that you're citing,
[01:36:28.800 --> 01:36:37.800]  are they cases that go to an extreme situation to where, say, someone is making a claim
[01:36:37.800 --> 01:36:43.800]  of organized crime against a person or group,
[01:36:43.800 --> 01:36:46.800]  and if his identity is revealed,
[01:36:46.800 --> 01:36:49.800]  he runs the risk of being murdered before he can get to court
[01:36:49.800 --> 01:36:51.800]  for some extreme situation like that.
[01:36:51.800 --> 01:36:54.800]  Is that what this case law goes to,
[01:36:54.800 --> 01:37:01.800]  or does the case law just generally grant a person the right to file suit
[01:37:01.800 --> 01:37:06.800]  against someone else and not reveal their identity by choice?
[01:37:06.800 --> 01:37:11.800]  Well, here in Doe v. Sewell, Jersey,
[01:37:11.800 --> 01:37:14.800]  it's a similar case to mine.
[01:37:14.800 --> 01:37:19.800]  Nobody's going to be murdered or harmed in any way.
[01:37:19.800 --> 01:37:24.800]  It was a 2008 case in New York, in the New York Supreme Court,
[01:37:24.800 --> 01:37:29.800]  and it was so ordered that the defendant motioned to tell the plaintiff
[01:37:29.800 --> 01:37:34.800]  to amend the caption to reflect her legal name.
[01:37:34.800 --> 01:37:39.800]  So in this case, they did not have to reveal her legal name,
[01:37:39.800 --> 01:37:49.800]  and she was able to go as Jane Doe.
[01:37:49.800 --> 01:37:54.800]  Did they state a reason why they allowed her to do that?
[01:37:54.800 --> 01:37:57.800]  Did they state law?
[01:37:57.800 --> 01:38:01.800]  Was there statutory law or was there case law?
[01:38:01.800 --> 01:38:08.800]  What was the support for being able to sue anonymously?
[01:38:08.800 --> 01:38:15.800]  Well, in this particular case, this was a unique case.
[01:38:15.800 --> 01:38:20.800]  There was no statute,
[01:38:20.800 --> 01:38:29.800]  and the plaintiff in this particular case wanted to hide her identity
[01:38:29.800 --> 01:38:36.800]  because it was in the nature of the jury store took her picture,
[01:38:36.800 --> 01:38:43.800]  and ended up they put her picture out there as a sexual act,
[01:38:43.800 --> 01:38:48.800]  and she didn't want to have her name revealed as the sexual act on this picture.
[01:38:48.800 --> 01:38:53.800]  It was a commercial.
[01:38:53.800 --> 01:38:57.800]  That's going to be a different situation from the situation that you're in.
[01:38:57.800 --> 01:39:01.800]  That was to protect her identity for a legitimate reason,
[01:39:01.800 --> 01:39:05.800]  because something about her had already been out in the public.
[01:39:05.800 --> 01:39:07.800]  What state were you from?
[01:39:07.800 --> 01:39:09.800]  Michigan.
[01:39:09.800 --> 01:39:15.800]  How do you bring the New York case to Michigan?
[01:39:15.800 --> 01:39:23.800]  The magistrate said that this hasn't been done before, and it will not be done.
[01:39:23.800 --> 01:39:27.800]  Sometimes you can import case law from one state to another state,
[01:39:27.800 --> 01:39:33.800]  but you would also need to show that the facts and the merits of the other case,
[01:39:33.800 --> 01:39:39.800]  even if it was a Michigan case, that that somehow matches up with your situation,
[01:39:39.800 --> 01:39:41.800]  or else it's not going to apply.
[01:39:41.800 --> 01:39:47.800]  That case law would be insufficient, because even if they did allow it,
[01:39:47.800 --> 01:39:52.800]  if the magistrate says this has never been done in Michigan,
[01:39:52.800 --> 01:39:56.800]  then you can say, okay, if it's never been done in Michigan,
[01:39:56.800 --> 01:39:59.800]  then I can bring in law from another state,
[01:39:59.800 --> 01:40:05.800]  because all of the states respect the legislatures from all the other states,
[01:40:05.800 --> 01:40:09.800]  in that they respect that they pass good law.
[01:40:09.800 --> 01:40:14.800]  So if our legislature hasn't addressed this issue and another has,
[01:40:14.800 --> 01:40:17.800]  then we can import that, but only if that's the case,
[01:40:17.800 --> 01:40:20.800]  if your legislature hasn't addressed it.
[01:40:20.800 --> 01:40:24.800]  However, it has to be on point.
[01:40:24.800 --> 01:40:26.800]  Yeah, it has to be on point.
[01:40:26.800 --> 01:40:30.800]  Charles, what kind of information were they trying to get out of you anyway?
[01:40:30.800 --> 01:40:33.800]  Telephone number, name, and address.
[01:40:33.800 --> 01:40:37.800]  And why did they want this information?
[01:40:37.800 --> 01:40:40.800]  You know, they said that they couldn't give me my refund
[01:40:40.800 --> 01:40:43.800]  unless I give them this information.
[01:40:43.800 --> 01:40:47.800]  Okay, it was just because we say so, in other words, was their reasoning.
[01:40:47.800 --> 01:40:48.800]  Exactly.
[01:40:48.800 --> 01:40:51.800]  Well, okay, here's one thing that I could suggest at this point.
[01:40:51.800 --> 01:40:54.800]  I don't know how much the refund is worth to you or how far you want to push this.
[01:40:54.800 --> 01:40:58.800]  Obviously, if you're going to sue them over this, they're going to know your name.
[01:40:58.800 --> 01:41:03.800]  You can maybe get a P.O. box to deal with all the paperwork of the lawsuit
[01:41:03.800 --> 01:41:05.800]  so that they would have your P.O. box number
[01:41:05.800 --> 01:41:09.800]  and not your home mailing address or something like that.
[01:41:09.800 --> 01:41:14.800]  But you could go ahead and sue them for the refund, sue them for court costs,
[01:41:14.800 --> 01:41:18.800]  sue them for pain and suffering and everything else and duress
[01:41:18.800 --> 01:41:22.800]  and loss of the money that you didn't have at all this time,
[01:41:22.800 --> 01:41:28.800]  and make an example out of it so that the next time somebody walks in that store
[01:41:28.800 --> 01:41:33.800]  and says, no, I'm not going to give you my personal information, give me my cash back,
[01:41:33.800 --> 01:41:39.800]  they might think twice about their policy because they could be looking at a lawsuit down the road.
[01:41:39.800 --> 01:41:42.800]  Would this be Best Buy by any chance?
[01:41:42.800 --> 01:41:45.800]  No, no, GameStop.
[01:41:45.800 --> 01:41:49.800]  You must have spent a lot of money in GameStop for them not to want to give you your cash back.
[01:41:49.800 --> 01:41:52.800]  They just have a policy, most stores do,
[01:41:52.800 --> 01:41:58.800]  and the reason that I've been told for this before is that they want to keep a record of,
[01:41:58.800 --> 01:42:01.800]  you know, an actual mailing address and phone number,
[01:42:01.800 --> 01:42:07.800]  and the only reason that they want to do that is to keep their employees in line.
[01:42:07.800 --> 01:42:10.800]  It's a check on the management, on the employees,
[01:42:10.800 --> 01:42:16.800]  to make sure that the employees aren't ripping off the store with phony refunds.
[01:42:16.800 --> 01:42:19.800]  That's the reason, but too bad.
[01:42:19.800 --> 01:42:23.800]  And Charles, you may also want to contact Catherine Albrecht about this.
[01:42:23.800 --> 01:42:31.800]  Do they have a posted policy or is there a policy written on the receipt?
[01:42:31.800 --> 01:42:33.800]  On the receipt they do have a policy.
[01:42:33.800 --> 01:42:39.800]  The policy states if I bring merchandise back within seven days in the original package unharmed,
[01:42:39.800 --> 01:42:41.800]  I am subject to a refund.
[01:42:41.800 --> 01:42:46.800]  It doesn't say anything about having to display my Social Security, I mean telephone number
[01:42:46.800 --> 01:42:49.800]  and address and name and everything else.
[01:42:49.800 --> 01:42:56.800]  Then a suggestion, to overcome the problem with the personal identification,
[01:42:56.800 --> 01:43:05.800]  do you have a problem using your name?
[01:43:05.800 --> 01:43:07.800]  In this case, I do.
[01:43:07.800 --> 01:43:09.800]  You're going to be hard to get in there.
[01:43:09.800 --> 01:43:10.800]  How is the court?
[01:43:10.800 --> 01:43:12.800]  Randy, can you speak up a little bit more?
[01:43:12.800 --> 01:43:13.800]  It sounds like you're kind of far away from the mic.
[01:43:13.800 --> 01:43:14.800]  I can't hear you.
[01:43:14.800 --> 01:43:20.800]  How is the court going to adjudicate a case with someone they don't know?
[01:43:20.800 --> 01:43:21.800]  You're going to have to use your name.
[01:43:21.800 --> 01:43:22.800]  You can't communicate with.
[01:43:22.800 --> 01:43:26.800]  You're going to have to use your name, Charles, if you're going to take it to court.
[01:43:26.800 --> 01:43:27.800]  Okay, so that was my question.
[01:43:27.800 --> 01:43:31.800]  I was wondering if I actually had to or if the other way I do it.
[01:43:31.800 --> 01:43:37.800]  Yeah, because all that case law you're citing doesn't apply to your case.
[01:43:37.800 --> 01:43:39.800]  And Randy's right.
[01:43:39.800 --> 01:43:40.800]  Okay.
[01:43:40.800 --> 01:43:41.800]  How is the court going to contact you?
[01:43:41.800 --> 01:43:45.800]  How are they going to know who they're dealing with?
[01:43:45.800 --> 01:43:50.800]  Well, you know, I took frequent trips back and forth, so it wasn't a big deal.
[01:43:50.800 --> 01:43:54.800]  Okay, well, listen, you might want to contact Katherine Albrecht about that,
[01:43:54.800 --> 01:43:56.800]  kma at spychips.com.
[01:43:56.800 --> 01:44:00.800]  We'll be right back with more of your calls.
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[01:44:59.800 --> 01:45:02.800]  Are you the plaintiff or defendant in a lawsuit?
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[01:45:06.800 --> 01:45:14.800]  the affordable, easy-to-understand, 4-CD course that will show you how in 24 hours, step-by-step.
[01:45:14.800 --> 01:45:18.800]  If you have a lawyer, know what your lawyer should be doing.
[01:45:18.800 --> 01:45:21.800]  If you don't have a lawyer, know what you should do for yourself.
[01:45:21.800 --> 01:45:26.800]  Thousands have won with our step-by-step course, and now you can too.
[01:45:26.800 --> 01:45:33.800]  Jurisdictionary was created by a licensed attorney with 22 years of case-winning experience.
[01:45:33.800 --> 01:45:37.800]  Even if you're not in a lawsuit, you can learn what everyone should understand
[01:45:37.800 --> 01:45:42.800]  about the principles and practices that control our American courts.
[01:45:42.800 --> 01:45:48.800]  You'll receive our audio classroom, video seminar, tutorials, forms for civil cases,
[01:45:48.800 --> 01:46:00.800]  pro se tactics, and much more. Please visit ruleoflawradio.com and click on the banner or call toll-free 866-LAW-EZ.
[01:46:19.800 --> 01:46:26.800]  Some things in this world I will never understand.
[01:46:26.800 --> 01:46:30.800]  Some things I realize fully.
[01:46:30.800 --> 01:46:34.800]  Somebody's gonna police that policeman.
[01:46:34.800 --> 01:46:38.800]  Somebody's gonna police the bully.
[01:46:38.800 --> 01:46:43.800]  There's always a room at the top of the hill.
[01:46:43.800 --> 01:46:48.800]  Here through the grapevine in this lonely left hill.
[01:46:48.800 --> 01:46:52.800]  They're wishing it was more than opposition to fail.
[01:46:52.800 --> 01:46:57.800]  They know that if they don't do it, somebody will be the main.
[01:46:57.800 --> 01:47:00.800]  In this world I will never understand.
[01:47:00.800 --> 01:47:04.800]  Some things I realize fully.
[01:47:04.800 --> 01:47:09.800]  Somebody's gonna police that policeman.
[01:47:09.800 --> 01:47:12.800]  Somebody's gonna police the bully.
[01:47:12.800 --> 01:47:15.800]  I know they will.
[01:47:15.800 --> 01:47:17.800]  Yeah, they're gonna put the bill.
[01:47:17.800 --> 01:47:18.800]  I know they will.
[01:47:18.800 --> 01:47:21.800]  Cause I see so much in God's detail.
[01:47:21.800 --> 01:47:22.800]  I know they will.
[01:47:22.800 --> 01:47:25.800]  Never fail to tip back the scale.
[01:47:25.800 --> 01:47:27.800]  I know they will.
[01:47:27.800 --> 01:47:30.800]  Never fail to tip back the scale.
[01:47:30.800 --> 01:47:34.800]  I know they will.
[01:47:34.800 --> 01:47:36.800]  I know they will.
[01:47:36.800 --> 01:47:38.800]  I can't even know.
[01:47:38.800 --> 01:47:42.800]  Okay folks, we are back. We got one more segment left.
[01:47:42.800 --> 01:47:46.800]  And Randy, before we go to Marion, Texas,
[01:47:46.800 --> 01:47:51.800]  the segment ended before we were able to finish with Paul.
[01:47:51.800 --> 01:47:55.800]  What is somebody supposed to do in a situation like this
[01:47:55.800 --> 01:48:00.800]  where they have not signed a contract agreeing to relinquish their anonymity
[01:48:00.800 --> 01:48:04.800]  and they are owed a refund?
[01:48:04.800 --> 01:48:09.800]  And now they're being basically extorted for personal data
[01:48:09.800 --> 01:48:11.800]  in order to get their cash back.
[01:48:11.800 --> 01:48:13.800]  And in order to file a lawsuit they have to give their identity.
[01:48:13.800 --> 01:48:16.800]  So what is the remedy here?
[01:48:16.800 --> 01:48:21.800]  Kitty, if you have an objection to using your name,
[01:48:21.800 --> 01:48:24.800]  it's gonna be hard to file a lawsuit.
[01:48:24.800 --> 01:48:30.800]  But if you're trying to keep them from physically having your personal address
[01:48:30.800 --> 01:48:34.800]  or personal contact information, you can get, you can take mail,
[01:48:34.800 --> 01:48:37.800]  general delivery at the post office.
[01:48:37.800 --> 01:48:39.800]  But the court has to have a way to serve you.
[01:48:39.800 --> 01:48:42.800]  The other party has to have a way to serve you.
[01:48:42.800 --> 01:48:45.800]  If the other party files a motion with the court,
[01:48:45.800 --> 01:48:49.800]  they have to certify that they served it on you.
[01:48:49.800 --> 01:48:51.800]  But if they don't know who you are or where you are,
[01:48:51.800 --> 01:48:53.800]  there's no way they can do that.
[01:48:53.800 --> 01:48:54.800]  Okay, Randy, I'm sorry.
[01:48:54.800 --> 01:48:56.800]  I didn't realize what was going on.
[01:48:56.800 --> 01:48:59.800]  We were on the break because the music was playing in the background.
[01:48:59.800 --> 01:49:01.800]  There's something going on on your channel.
[01:49:01.800 --> 01:49:02.800]  It's real noisy.
[01:49:02.800 --> 01:49:04.800]  I can hardly understand what you're saying.
[01:49:04.800 --> 01:49:10.800]  Do you have a fan or some kind of equipment on over there?
[01:49:10.800 --> 01:49:11.800]  No, I don't.
[01:49:11.800 --> 01:49:14.800]  Okay, there's not an air filter or something like that?
[01:49:14.800 --> 01:49:17.800]  Let me see what I can sort out.
[01:49:17.800 --> 01:49:18.800]  Okay, all right.
[01:49:18.800 --> 01:49:20.800]  It's just, it's sounding really scratchy,
[01:49:20.800 --> 01:49:24.800]  and we're having a hard time understanding what you're saying.
[01:49:24.800 --> 01:49:25.800]  Okay, yeah, good point.
[01:49:25.800 --> 01:49:27.800]  You can have general delivery.
[01:49:27.800 --> 01:49:29.800]  And like I said, something about a post office box,
[01:49:29.800 --> 01:49:33.800]  but you still are going to have to give your name to the court,
[01:49:33.800 --> 01:49:37.800]  which means the other party will have your name.
[01:49:37.800 --> 01:49:40.800]  Okay, we are going now to Mary in Texas.
[01:49:40.800 --> 01:49:41.800]  Mary, thanks for calling in.
[01:49:41.800 --> 01:49:43.800]  What's on your mind?
[01:49:43.800 --> 01:49:45.800]  Hi, good evening, you guys.
[01:49:45.800 --> 01:49:46.800]  How are you all?
[01:49:46.800 --> 01:49:49.800]  Pretty good.
[01:49:49.800 --> 01:49:54.800]  Well, I'm doing pro se, I guess that's the word.
[01:49:54.800 --> 01:49:58.800]  I've been for custody, I've called before.
[01:49:58.800 --> 01:50:05.800]  And I am trying to figure out, I went to court last Wednesday,
[01:50:05.800 --> 01:50:12.800]  and the other lawyer wrote up a, I guess,
[01:50:12.800 --> 01:50:17.800]  the order from the court for me to supposedly sign.
[01:50:17.800 --> 01:50:20.800]  And it doesn't seem to contain what the judge ordered,
[01:50:20.800 --> 01:50:24.800]  which would be to my son to go to counseling with me
[01:50:24.800 --> 01:50:28.800]  and for him to be returned to me.
[01:50:28.800 --> 01:50:32.800]  And the judge ordered that, but they have yet to return him.
[01:50:32.800 --> 01:50:37.800]  So I tried to go do a writ for a habeas corpus myself this week.
[01:50:37.800 --> 01:50:38.800]  Wait, wait, wait.
[01:50:38.800 --> 01:50:41.800]  Did the judge sign the order the other attorney wrote up?
[01:50:41.800 --> 01:50:45.800]  No, she sent me, I got today, she sent me a fax.
[01:50:45.800 --> 01:50:48.800]  Okay, that is a proposed order.
[01:50:48.800 --> 01:50:49.800]  Yeah.
[01:50:49.800 --> 01:50:50.800]  It's a proposed order.
[01:50:50.800 --> 01:50:54.800]  You take that order and you write it the way you want it to be.
[01:50:54.800 --> 01:50:57.800]  So what does that language look like?
[01:50:57.800 --> 01:50:58.800]  I have no idea.
[01:50:58.800 --> 01:51:00.800]  I don't know what the order says.
[01:51:00.800 --> 01:51:04.800]  It says so-and-so appear in front of me,
[01:51:04.800 --> 01:51:07.800]  it's hereby ordered that they go to mediation.
[01:51:07.800 --> 01:51:10.800]  Okay, this is how you think about an order.
[01:51:10.800 --> 01:51:14.800]  What would you like to hear the judge say?
[01:51:14.800 --> 01:51:17.800]  Sequoia has written various orders to me to therapy.
[01:51:17.800 --> 01:51:19.800]  That's how you write up the order.
[01:51:19.800 --> 01:51:20.800]  Okay.
[01:51:20.800 --> 01:51:22.800]  You write up just what you want to hear the judge say
[01:51:22.800 --> 01:51:26.800]  and it doesn't have to be any special magic language.
[01:51:26.800 --> 01:51:28.800]  It is hereby ordered that.
[01:51:28.800 --> 01:51:29.800]  Okay.
[01:51:29.800 --> 01:51:31.800]  Just whatever you want to hear the judge say.
[01:51:31.800 --> 01:51:34.800]  So then I write that and then...
[01:51:34.800 --> 01:51:36.800]  Send it back to the other attorney.
[01:51:36.800 --> 01:51:39.800]  I give it back to the other attorney because she faxed it to the judge.
[01:51:39.800 --> 01:51:41.800]  So do I fax it to the judge too?
[01:51:41.800 --> 01:51:45.800]  Yeah, you fax your proposed to the judge.
[01:51:45.800 --> 01:51:51.800]  So then after that, do I call to set a hearing?
[01:51:51.800 --> 01:51:52.800]  How does that work?
[01:51:52.800 --> 01:51:57.800]  Because I'm saying that I'm not going to accept this and I want my order.
[01:51:57.800 --> 01:52:05.800]  So they would have to have a hearing to decide, right?
[01:52:05.800 --> 01:52:08.800]  Sorry, I have a little glitch there.
[01:52:08.800 --> 01:52:10.800]  Yeah, you fax it to the judge.
[01:52:10.800 --> 01:52:16.800]  But aren't I supposed to get them to set a hearing to hear that case?
[01:52:16.800 --> 01:52:18.800]  So I call them and say that to them?
[01:52:18.800 --> 01:52:21.800]  No, not the order.
[01:52:21.800 --> 01:52:29.800]  If the other attorney has sent a order,
[01:52:29.800 --> 01:52:34.800]  then there has to have already been a motion filed.
[01:52:34.800 --> 01:52:39.800]  Or there has to have been a hearing on a motion and the judge asked for order.
[01:52:39.800 --> 01:52:43.800]  Well, we had a hearing on Wednesday.
[01:52:43.800 --> 01:52:45.800]  Is that what you mean?
[01:52:45.800 --> 01:52:46.800]  Yes.
[01:52:46.800 --> 01:52:47.800]  Okay.
[01:52:47.800 --> 01:52:52.800]  And then the judge said to her, write up an order.
[01:52:52.800 --> 01:52:55.800]  And I read it and it didn't seem to have what it was supposed to.
[01:52:55.800 --> 01:52:56.800]  Okay.
[01:52:56.800 --> 01:52:59.800]  What did the judge rule?
[01:52:59.800 --> 01:53:03.800]  The judge ruled that my son was to be returned home immediately
[01:53:03.800 --> 01:53:07.800]  and to go to counseling and for us to go to mediation.
[01:53:07.800 --> 01:53:15.800]  Okay, then you write up an order that you object to the order the attorney wrote
[01:53:15.800 --> 01:53:19.800]  and that's why he sent you a copy so you could do that.
[01:53:19.800 --> 01:53:25.800]  And you propose an order that reflects what the judge said.
[01:53:25.800 --> 01:53:29.800]  Okay.
[01:53:29.800 --> 01:53:34.800]  And then at that point, I didn't say anything here about any dates,
[01:53:34.800 --> 01:53:36.800]  like how soon that needs to be done.
[01:53:36.800 --> 01:53:38.800]  Look, look, put whatever you want in it.
[01:53:38.800 --> 01:53:39.800]  Okay.
[01:53:39.800 --> 01:53:42.800]  Put whatever you want the judge to say, put it in there.
[01:53:42.800 --> 01:53:43.800]  Okay.
[01:53:43.800 --> 01:53:46.800]  So then I need to just do that like tomorrow, like as soon as possible?
[01:53:46.800 --> 01:53:47.800]  Yes.
[01:53:47.800 --> 01:53:48.800]  Okay.
[01:53:48.800 --> 01:53:53.800]  And then I call their administrator to see if we're going to have a court date
[01:53:53.800 --> 01:53:54.800]  or I just don't know how this works.
[01:53:54.800 --> 01:53:55.800]  Okay.
[01:53:55.800 --> 01:54:03.800]  First you send a copy to the clerk and a copy to the attorney on the other side.
[01:54:03.800 --> 01:54:05.800]  Right.
[01:54:05.800 --> 01:54:08.800]  And then the judge will sign the order.
[01:54:08.800 --> 01:54:10.800]  He'll sign the one he wants to.
[01:54:10.800 --> 01:54:12.800]  Oh, we shouldn't try to have a hearing?
[01:54:12.800 --> 01:54:15.800]  No, there's no hearing for that.
[01:54:15.800 --> 01:54:18.800]  Somebody told me that you're supposed to have a hearing.
[01:54:18.800 --> 01:54:20.800]  Yeah, we have a hearing.
[01:54:20.800 --> 01:54:21.800]  Oh.
[01:54:21.800 --> 01:54:23.800]  You don't have to have a hearing to sign an order.
[01:54:23.800 --> 01:54:29.800]  He had a hearing, made his decision, and apparently nobody had an order for him.
[01:54:29.800 --> 01:54:30.800]  Okay.
[01:54:30.800 --> 01:54:35.800]  Generally, when you file a motion, you include an order that the judge can just sign
[01:54:35.800 --> 01:54:37.800]  because he don't want to do any work.
[01:54:37.800 --> 01:54:39.800]  He don't have to make this up himself.
[01:54:39.800 --> 01:54:42.800]  If you want him to sign an order, you've got to make it for him.
[01:54:42.800 --> 01:54:47.800]  So generally, you send the order with your motion, but apparently nobody did that,
[01:54:47.800 --> 01:54:50.800]  so he asked for one.
[01:54:50.800 --> 01:54:51.800]  I'm sorry.
[01:54:51.800 --> 01:54:53.800]  I just don't understand this language very well.
[01:54:53.800 --> 01:54:54.800]  Okay.
[01:54:54.800 --> 01:54:55.800]  Well, it's just not that difficult.
[01:54:55.800 --> 01:55:01.800]  But once you read it a little bit, the real difference in legalese
[01:55:01.800 --> 01:55:07.800]  is they tend not to use pronouns.
[01:55:07.800 --> 01:55:14.800]  He, him, they, this, you know, what in the heck does that refer to?
[01:55:14.800 --> 01:55:19.800]  So they make their language very specific.
[01:55:19.800 --> 01:55:23.800]  Never use pronouns in a legal document.
[01:55:23.800 --> 01:55:26.800]  Always be very specific.
[01:55:26.800 --> 01:55:30.800]  Yeah, you'll also notice that they tend to leave out in lots of references
[01:55:30.800 --> 01:55:36.800]  the word the or the word a or the word an.
[01:55:36.800 --> 01:55:40.800]  It also tends to make it somewhat obtuse to read.
[01:55:40.800 --> 01:55:45.800]  Yeah, it sounds odd, but the word the means one previously mentioned.
[01:55:45.800 --> 01:55:51.800]  Well, one previously mentioned does not necessarily have specific referential index.
[01:55:51.800 --> 01:55:56.800]  Which specific one previously mentioned are you referring to?
[01:55:56.800 --> 01:56:01.800]  So instead of the, they will say plaintiff.
[01:56:01.800 --> 01:56:03.800]  I never use a pronoun.
[01:56:03.800 --> 01:56:07.800]  I always use plaintiff defendant instead of saying he or she,
[01:56:07.800 --> 01:56:14.800]  because an attorney will misconstrue anything he can.
[01:56:14.800 --> 01:56:17.800]  So you try to write your language.
[01:56:17.800 --> 01:56:24.800]  When you're writing it, think how can someone deliberately misconstrue what I'm saying?
[01:56:24.800 --> 01:56:25.800]  Right.
[01:56:25.800 --> 01:56:30.800]  So if I use a term that's not specific.
[01:56:30.800 --> 01:56:31.800]  Right.
[01:56:31.800 --> 01:56:35.800]  What could they apply this term to?
[01:56:35.800 --> 01:56:39.800]  Say, oh, I thought you meant this or I thought you meant that.
[01:56:39.800 --> 01:56:47.800]  Primarily the difference you'll find in normal language usage and legalese.
[01:56:47.800 --> 01:56:51.800]  And then there are those terms that are terms of art.
[01:56:51.800 --> 01:56:52.800]  Right.
[01:56:52.800 --> 01:56:53.800]  That have special legal means.
[01:56:53.800 --> 01:56:55.800]  I can't believe what a rigor moral it is.
[01:56:55.800 --> 01:56:59.800]  I mean, the judge ordered my son home and he didn't get brought home.
[01:56:59.800 --> 01:57:05.800]  My ex-husband decided he didn't have to do it, so he didn't.
[01:57:05.800 --> 01:57:09.800]  Okay, you have to file for a...
[01:57:09.800 --> 01:57:10.800]  Rid of habeas corpus.
[01:57:10.800 --> 01:57:11.800]  No, this is not.
[01:57:11.800 --> 01:57:14.800]  That really wouldn't go to habeas corpus.
[01:57:14.800 --> 01:57:19.800]  Well, I went to try to go do that, and it cost so much money I couldn't do it.
[01:57:19.800 --> 01:57:21.800]  It doesn't cost anything to file for habeas corpus.
[01:57:21.800 --> 01:57:23.800]  It costs $300.
[01:57:23.800 --> 01:57:24.800]  No, it doesn't.
[01:57:24.800 --> 01:57:26.800]  Well, I went in there and that's what they told me.
[01:57:26.800 --> 01:57:28.800]  Okay, this is what happened to me.
[01:57:28.800 --> 01:57:31.800]  I went to Johnson County to file for habeas corpus and the clerk said,
[01:57:31.800 --> 01:57:35.800]  Now, that'll be a $200 filing fee. I said, don't tell me that.
[01:57:35.800 --> 01:57:36.800]  She said, I have to tell you that.
[01:57:36.800 --> 01:57:37.800]  No, ma'am.
[01:57:37.800 --> 01:57:39.800]  Go get the elected clerk to tell me that.
[01:57:39.800 --> 01:57:42.800]  So she went and got the elected clerk and Lloyd came out.
[01:57:42.800 --> 01:57:44.800]  That'll be a $200 filing fee.
[01:57:44.800 --> 01:57:46.800]  Stay right here.
[01:57:46.800 --> 01:57:47.800]  Don't go anywhere.
[01:57:47.800 --> 01:57:49.800]  Somebody's going to want to talk to you.
[01:57:49.800 --> 01:57:50.800]  I took out my cell phone.
[01:57:50.800 --> 01:57:52.800]  I dialed 911.
[01:57:52.800 --> 01:58:05.800]  11.156 code of criminal procedure says a filing fee for a writ of habeas corpus is prohibited.
[01:58:05.800 --> 01:58:06.800]  Really?
[01:58:06.800 --> 01:58:08.800]  Really.
[01:58:08.800 --> 01:58:13.800]  That's what it says and that's what it means.
[01:58:13.800 --> 01:58:15.800]  So you're saying there's something I can do that's simpler?
[01:58:15.800 --> 01:58:17.800]  You betcha.
[01:58:17.800 --> 01:58:18.800]  What?
[01:58:18.800 --> 01:58:22.800]  Okay.
[01:58:22.800 --> 01:58:26.800]  We'll leave that as a cliffhanger for next time because we are out of time.
[01:58:26.800 --> 01:58:31.800]  Call back tomorrow and we'll talk about one of my favorite subjects,
[01:58:31.800 --> 01:58:34.800]  how to kick the public officials behind.
[01:58:34.800 --> 01:58:38.800]  Randy Kelton, Debbie Steve and Debbie Craig, Root of Law Radio.
[01:58:38.800 --> 01:58:40.800]  We'll be back tomorrow at 8 o'clock.
[01:58:40.800 --> 01:58:48.800]  We'll be right back.
[01:59:10.800 --> 01:59:12.800]  We'll be right back.
[01:59:40.800 --> 01:59:42.800]  We'll be right back.