ROL_2009-04-02_16k.timecode
[00:00.000 --> 00:12.720] In Pakistan, Dr Hafiz Pasha, head of a panel of economists, said Pakistan suffered $6 billion
[00:12.720 --> 00:19.920] in economic losses during 2007-2008, supporting the war on terror. Pasha said the US should
[00:19.920 --> 00:26.220] double its aid to Pakistan in view of these massive losses. General David Petraeus, the
[00:26.220 --> 00:31.480] top US commander in the Middle East, warned Congress Wednesday Israel may preemptively
[00:31.480 --> 00:39.900] strike Iran over concerns about its development of nuclear weapons. Israel's controversial
[00:39.900 --> 00:45.880] Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman declared Israel is no longer bound by the peace commitments
[00:45.880 --> 00:51.380] made at the 2007 Annapolis conference. The new government of Prime Minister Benjamin
[00:51.380 --> 00:57.440] Netanyahu intends to distance itself from the US-sponsored peace initiatives, and talks
[00:57.440 --> 01:06.740] on Palestinian statehood are all but dead.
[01:06.740 --> 01:12.720] Cambodia's Prime Minister Han Sen has rejected calls to put more former Khmer Rouge officials
[01:12.720 --> 01:20.120] on trial. Han said efforts to widen the scope of the UN-backed tribunal could plunge the
[01:20.120 --> 01:26.440] country into civil war. The Khmer Rouge's former prison chief, Kheng Goek Eve, known
[01:26.440 --> 01:32.160] as Doik, is the first high official to face trial for crimes committed more than 30 years
[01:32.160 --> 01:40.600] ago. Doik is accused of war crimes and crimes against humanity. On Tuesday, he apologized
[01:40.600 --> 01:46.040] for the deaths of more than 14,000 people at the Torture and Interrogation Center he
[01:46.040 --> 01:52.480] ran in Phnom Penh. Four other former Khmer Rouge leaders are currently awaiting trial.
[01:52.480 --> 02:00.840] 1.7 million Cambodians died during the Khmer Rouge's rule between 1975 and 1979. Human
[02:00.840 --> 02:06.040] rights groups suspect the Prime Minister is keen to avoid an in-depth investigation for
[02:06.040 --> 02:11.360] fear it will reveal secrets about senior Khmer Rouge figures in his administration.
[02:11.360 --> 02:20.800] As Mexico suffers from the worst drug-related bloodshed in its history, a growing number
[02:20.800 --> 02:26.600] of politicians and pundits there are calling for the legalization of drugs. In recent months,
[02:26.600 --> 02:32.720] two bills have been filed in the Mexican Congress, one advocating decriminalization of marijuana
[02:32.720 --> 02:38.920] for personal use and the other including cocaine and heroin. Elisa Conde, the federal congresswoman
[02:38.920 --> 02:45.320] who filed the marijuana bill said, quote, we need to look at new ways of stopping all
[02:45.320 --> 02:52.320] these billions of dollars going to the gangsters. Mexican drug gangs make an estimated $30 billion
[02:52.320 --> 03:09.160] a year trafficking drugs to the U.S. You are listening to the Rule of Law Radio Network
[03:09.160 --> 03:25.960] and speech talk radio at its best.
[03:25.960 --> 03:51.760] 1.3 million immigrants died in the U.S. hits with over 100 people killing themselves now
[03:51.760 --> 04:05.560] Alright, this is the Rule of Law, Randy Kelton and Debra Stevens here on Rule of Law Radio,
[04:05.560 --> 04:06.560] ruleoflawradio.com.
[04:06.560 --> 04:12.160] Alright, we have something special planned for y'all tonight at the beginning of our
[04:12.160 --> 04:13.660] show.
[04:13.660 --> 04:21.100] We had some difficulty getting through to Tom's guest, Stephen Kinzer, and so we are
[04:21.100 --> 04:26.360] going to allow these two gentlemen to continue their conversation into the beginning of our
[04:26.360 --> 04:29.440] show, first half hour or so.
[04:29.440 --> 04:35.120] So Tom and Stephen, thank you for agreeing to stay over, and Tom, we're going to turn
[04:35.120 --> 04:39.840] it back over to you right now, and if you could just briefly explain who our guest is
[04:39.840 --> 04:42.600] for the sake of our listeners who may just be tuning in.
[04:42.600 --> 04:47.640] Absolutely, and thank you both Randy and Debra so much for allowing us to spill over a little
[04:47.640 --> 04:48.640] bit into your program.
[04:48.640 --> 04:49.640] Sure, no problem.
[04:49.640 --> 04:53.600] We had a little bit of a hard time getting the interview portion of our program started
[04:53.600 --> 04:54.600] tonight.
[04:54.600 --> 04:58.280] Good friends, those of you who listen to the Rule of Law program here on Rule of Law Radio,
[04:58.280 --> 05:03.080] welcome to a little bit of an extension of the INM War Report radio tonight, and we have
[05:03.080 --> 05:08.800] the pleasure of speaking with one, I have to say, good friends, one of the best researchers
[05:08.800 --> 05:14.600] and journalists that I've had the pleasure to interview on INM War Report in almost eight
[05:14.600 --> 05:18.940] years that we've been on the air, and we're talking tonight with journalist and author
[05:18.940 --> 05:25.000] Stephen Kinzer, who has been the New York Times Foreign Bureau Chief in a number of
[05:25.000 --> 05:30.200] hot spots around the world, and if you listen to my program, you know that I usually rail
[05:30.200 --> 05:34.320] against the corporate media and the inadequate job that it does.
[05:34.320 --> 05:37.720] Well here, in this case, there is a shining exception.
[05:37.720 --> 05:43.560] I believe that I have learned so much valuable context from our guest, Stephen Kinzer, and
[05:43.560 --> 05:49.400] the work that he's done, a context that I find so many smart people even are missing,
[05:49.400 --> 05:55.240] and yet it so helps to put things into a very clear perspective, and in specific, his great
[05:55.240 --> 06:01.440] book about the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Iran in 1953 by the
[06:01.440 --> 06:07.800] young CIA in his book called All the Shah's Men, and he's written about how that process
[06:07.800 --> 06:12.680] has been repeated some fourteen times around the world since, and maybe perhaps in some
[06:12.680 --> 06:19.600] cases a little bit before, but Stephen, we were just talking before the break about how
[06:19.600 --> 06:27.040] ironically so many people don't seem to have this context and how we don't, part of the
[06:27.040 --> 06:30.640] reason we don't seem to have this context is because this kind of thing happens under
[06:30.640 --> 06:31.640] the radar.
[06:31.640 --> 06:36.160] It happens in secret, and we don't believe that we're capable of doing things like taking
[06:36.160 --> 06:41.500] a healthy, strong democracy away from people who love it in other parts of the world.
[06:41.500 --> 06:46.360] We don't see ourselves as a country that would do something like that, do we?
[06:46.360 --> 06:54.480] It's great that you use that word, ironically, because it really leads us into a fantastic
[06:54.480 --> 06:58.880] example of that, and this is a situation that we're now facing with Iran.
[06:58.880 --> 07:06.080] So here we have this crisis with this supposedly snarling regime that's building potentially
[07:06.080 --> 07:11.200] nuclear weapons, and we're wondering why they would do this, and how they ever got these
[07:11.200 --> 07:12.200] crazy ideas.
[07:12.200 --> 07:17.320] So let's look back a little bit at what happened to create this crisis in Iran.
[07:17.320 --> 07:24.160] So in the early 1950s, Iran was actually a thriving democracy with a parliament and
[07:24.160 --> 07:30.320] different political parties representing various points of view and a very popular prime minister,
[07:30.320 --> 07:37.360] Mohammed Mosaddegh, but because Iran was a democracy, the prime minister had to respond
[07:37.360 --> 07:43.440] to the ordinary people, and the great desire of Iranians at that time was something that
[07:43.440 --> 07:49.320] we should be able to understand, and that was their desire to take back control over
[07:49.320 --> 07:54.800] their one great natural resource, and that is oil.
[07:54.800 --> 08:01.320] At this time, Iran was then, as it is now, sitting on an ocean of oil, but all of the
[08:01.320 --> 08:09.000] Iranian oil industry was owned by one foreign company, and this company was owned in turn
[08:09.000 --> 08:11.560] largely by the government of Great Britain.
[08:11.560 --> 08:17.520] So the Iranians decided, we've got to take back control of our oil and use the profits
[08:17.520 --> 08:20.280] from that oil to develop our own country.
[08:20.280 --> 08:26.160] Those profits should not be used to power the British navy and the British economy.
[08:26.160 --> 08:31.760] So that, of course, terrified the British, they tried to overthrow Mosaddegh, when that
[08:31.760 --> 08:37.320] didn't work, they came to the Americans, and finally the Americans, through the CIA, agreed
[08:37.320 --> 08:41.640] that we would go in and overthrow this democratically elected leader.
[08:41.640 --> 08:44.080] We did that in the summer of 1953.
[08:44.080 --> 08:51.320] Now, we didn't just overthrow one prime minister, Mosaddegh, we overthrew the entire democratic
[08:51.320 --> 08:53.240] system of Iran.
[08:53.240 --> 08:59.640] We imposed a tyrant, the Shah, who we liked, because he would do everything we wanted,
[08:59.640 --> 09:03.400] but we ended democracy in the Muslim Middle East.
[09:03.400 --> 09:08.720] I can hardly wrap my mind around how different the Middle East might be now if we had had
[09:08.720 --> 09:13.720] a thriving democracy in that region in the heart of the Muslim Middle East all these
[09:13.720 --> 09:14.880] 50 years.
[09:14.880 --> 09:19.880] So when we overthrew Prime Minister Mosaddegh and put the Shah in, we thought we'd achieved
[09:19.880 --> 09:20.880] a success.
[09:20.880 --> 09:25.360] So we got rid of a guy we didn't like, and we replaced him with a guy who would do everything
[09:25.360 --> 09:26.360] we wanted.
[09:26.360 --> 09:33.080] But now, as we look back from the perspective of history, we can see what terrible damage
[09:33.080 --> 09:36.880] that brought, not just to Iran, but also to us.
[09:36.880 --> 09:45.080] So that Shah that we imposed back on his throne ruled with increasing repression for 25 years.
[09:45.080 --> 09:52.320] His repression produced the explosion of the late 1970s, what we call the Islamic Revolution.
[09:52.320 --> 09:57.440] That revolution brought to power this clique of fanatically anti-American mullahs who spent
[09:57.440 --> 10:03.360] 30 years working intensely and sometimes very violently to undermine American and Western
[10:03.360 --> 10:05.440] interests all over the world.
[10:05.440 --> 10:11.320] That revolution also encouraged the invasion of Iran by next door Saddam Hussein, supported
[10:11.320 --> 10:13.660] by the United States, as we talked about earlier.
[10:13.660 --> 10:21.040] That revolution also terrified the Soviets because they were afraid there'd be copycat
[10:21.040 --> 10:26.600] Muslim radical revolutions all along their southern frontier.
[10:26.600 --> 10:29.920] That led them to invade Afghanistan.
[10:29.920 --> 10:35.960] It was their intervention in Afghanistan that led the CIA to decide, we should start a project
[10:35.960 --> 10:41.760] there with billions of dollars of CIA money to train every mujahideen and jihadi in the
[10:41.760 --> 10:47.800] whole world to go into Afghanistan and fight the infidel, never realizing that a few years
[10:47.800 --> 10:52.120] later we would be the infidel that those people would want to fight.
[10:52.120 --> 10:56.800] That was the project that brought Osama bin Laden to that part of the world with results
[10:56.800 --> 10:58.280] that we all know.
[10:58.280 --> 11:04.800] So now when we look back on that intervention in Iran in 1953, it doesn't seem quite so
[11:04.800 --> 11:08.000] successful as it did at the time.
[11:08.000 --> 11:15.120] Now there you have it, good friends, that's why I enjoy so much talking with Stephen Kinzer.
[11:15.120 --> 11:26.120] You just saw somebody draw a line from our destruction of the only democracy in the Arab
[11:26.120 --> 11:34.920] and Islamic Middle East, because of course Iran is not Arabic, it is Persian.
[11:34.920 --> 11:38.720] And our politicians, by the way, to this day they'll use it as a justification to go in
[11:38.720 --> 11:39.720] there and have a war.
[11:39.720 --> 11:43.720] They'll wag their finger in our face and say, but they're not democratic.
[11:43.720 --> 11:49.420] And in fact we've gone so insanely far into this that I think it is 2003 State of the
[11:49.420 --> 11:55.120] Union address George Bush said the people of Iran deserve democracy.
[11:55.120 --> 12:00.160] You just heard a timeline there and I think it's got a lot of credence that draws back
[12:00.160 --> 12:05.800] from the days that we destabilized the only democracy in the Arab, I should say in the
[12:05.800 --> 12:10.440] Muslim Middle East, and it goes all the way through this whole timeline of events.
[12:10.440 --> 12:14.720] And Stephen, wouldn't you say you could even extend that to September 11th, at least the
[12:14.720 --> 12:18.400] official version of events on how it went down?
[12:18.400 --> 12:26.240] Absolutely, I think it is not too far-fetched to say that you can draw a line from the U.S.
[12:26.240 --> 12:34.680] intervention in Iran in 1953 through the long rule of the Shah to the Islamic revolution
[12:34.680 --> 12:40.440] and the inspiration that that gave to fundamentalist Muslim radicals around the world to take over
[12:40.440 --> 12:46.520] countries in which they succeeded in doing Afghanistan and which then drew the United
[12:46.520 --> 12:54.880] States into providing a magnet for radical Muslims from all over the world, including
[12:54.880 --> 13:00.000] Osama bin Laden, who established their base in this country that we had helped destabilize
[13:00.000 --> 13:07.400] Afghanistan and then use that platform to attack the Twin Towers on September 11th.
[13:07.400 --> 13:15.240] There's no doubt that these people who are using methods that we all find so repulsive
[13:15.240 --> 13:17.040] are not just blind nihilists.
[13:17.040 --> 13:24.320] You know, I really believe that everything, even the most evil act, have a background.
[13:24.320 --> 13:25.600] You try to understand them.
[13:25.600 --> 13:29.720] It doesn't mean that you excuse them, but you understand them.
[13:29.720 --> 13:35.400] Let me just tell you one little story that I heard from a guy who had been a hostage
[13:35.400 --> 13:37.480] in Iran during that hostage crisis.
[13:37.480 --> 13:42.200] He was the senior American diplomat in Iran, the acting ambassador, Bruce Langen, at the
[13:42.200 --> 13:43.560] U.S. Embassy in Tehran.
[13:43.560 --> 13:47.400] So I got to meet him a couple of years ago at a panel about Iran.
[13:47.400 --> 13:52.040] I'd never talked to him before, but I knew that he'd become an advocate of better relations
[13:52.040 --> 13:56.840] between the U.S. and Iran, which I thought was quite remarkable considering the great
[13:56.840 --> 14:00.280] terrible suffering that he was subjected to as a hostage.
[14:00.280 --> 14:04.480] And I spoke to him afterwards and we exchanged a few emails and he told me this story.
[14:04.480 --> 14:11.240] He said, I've been sitting in that miserable solitary cell for about one year as a hostage
[14:11.240 --> 14:17.680] when one day the cell door opened and there was standing one of my jailers, one of the
[14:17.680 --> 14:18.680] hostage takers.
[14:18.680 --> 14:24.640] And I was so angry, one whole year of my rage and my frustration boiled over and I started
[14:24.640 --> 14:29.280] screaming at him and I started telling him, you have no right to do this, this violates
[14:29.280 --> 14:32.720] every law of God and man, you cannot take innocent people hostage.
[14:32.720 --> 14:37.640] And he said, I went on and on for several minutes until I ran out of breath.
[14:37.640 --> 14:43.840] And finally, this Iranian guy leaned his head into my cell and in very good English said,
[14:43.840 --> 14:52.600] you have no right to complain because in 1953 you took our whole country hostage.
[14:52.600 --> 14:58.760] Now this is something that Americans don't really realize, that there was something lying
[14:58.760 --> 15:00.440] behind all this.
[15:00.440 --> 15:06.840] What I think the fundamental lesson is, is that when you intervene violently in the political
[15:06.840 --> 15:13.000] prophecies of another country, you are doing something like releasing a wheel at the top
[15:13.000 --> 15:14.000] of a hill.
[15:14.000 --> 15:19.880] You can let it go, but you have no control over how it's going to bounce or where it's
[15:19.880 --> 15:22.280] ultimately going to end up.
[15:22.280 --> 15:25.320] These interventions are easily forgotten in the US.
[15:25.320 --> 15:29.880] We forget that we did it, but the effects are long term.
[15:29.880 --> 15:35.520] These interventions burn and they fester in the minds and hearts and souls of people in
[15:35.520 --> 15:46.240] other countries and the ultimate result bursts out years or decades later and winds up devastating
[15:46.240 --> 15:52.160] the national security that we thought we were protecting by intervening in the first place.
[15:52.160 --> 15:57.080] Well I'm going to take one issue with that and that is, I wouldn't subscribe to the notion
[15:57.080 --> 16:03.840] that we soon forget because in the case of this deceitful destruction of a democracy,
[16:03.840 --> 16:10.480] the only Muslim democracy in the Middle East, it was done surreptitiously because it is
[16:10.480 --> 16:14.000] against, I believe, the good nature of the American people.
[16:14.000 --> 16:19.160] It is against, I think, the good nature of so many people who are listening to us tonight.
[16:19.160 --> 16:20.640] I'd like to see what your take is on that.
[16:20.640 --> 16:24.040] We're going to go on break here though, Stephen, if you can hold that in just a second.
[16:24.040 --> 16:28.440] Folks, we're speaking, this is the INM War Report radio, a little bit extended tonight
[16:28.440 --> 16:31.960] into the Rule of Law radio program because we had a little bit of trouble getting our
[16:31.960 --> 16:36.240] interview started, but I want to thank Randy and Debra so much for allowing this to take
[16:36.240 --> 16:42.520] place because I hope you agree, you are hearing tonight here on Rule of Law radio such important
[16:42.520 --> 16:48.800] information, such an important context for how we got ourselves to where we are today,
[16:48.800 --> 16:50.880] especially vis-a-vis Iran.
[16:50.880 --> 16:53.560] We're going to be right back after this short message.
[16:53.560 --> 16:56.440] We're talking with Stephen Kinzer.
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[18:27.520 --> 18:55.960] All right, good friends.
[18:55.960 --> 18:56.960] Welcome back.
[18:56.960 --> 19:01.600] This is the Rule of Law Radio program on the Rule of Law Radio Network, but you probably
[19:01.600 --> 19:05.920] don't recognize my voice as being one of the hosts of the Rule of Law Radio program and
[19:05.920 --> 19:11.880] that's because my name is Tom Kiley and I host INM War Report Radio which comes on just
[19:11.880 --> 19:16.520] before this program on Thursday nights here on the same network on the Rule of Law Radio
[19:16.520 --> 19:20.700] Network and Debra and Randy have been very gracious to allow us to go a little bit over
[19:20.700 --> 19:25.300] into their program tonight because we got a late start with our interview with a fascinating
[19:25.300 --> 19:31.520] guest Stephen Kinzer who I have been dying to introduce my great audience to, or our
[19:31.520 --> 19:36.360] great audience to I should say, a rule of law with somebody who's just done a fantastic
[19:36.360 --> 19:43.120] job, a great service to the United States, to the people of America to get them to know,
[19:43.120 --> 19:48.440] to get us to know our lost history, how we got into so many of these very terrible situations
[19:48.440 --> 19:53.720] that we find ourselves in and without that knowledge the damn politicians that got us
[19:53.720 --> 19:58.340] into them are going to just try to take advantage of that ignorance and get us into these things
[19:58.340 --> 20:00.040] all over again.
[20:00.040 --> 20:08.160] Stephen, we were talking about the terrible ramifications, what happened when a democracy
[20:08.160 --> 20:15.960] in the Islamic Middle East in 1953 was destroyed.
[20:15.960 --> 20:18.520] Can you tell us a little bit about the quality of that democracy?
[20:18.520 --> 20:23.000] I've had Iranians practically crying telling me what did you people do?
[20:23.000 --> 20:25.520] It was such a beautiful time in our country.
[20:25.520 --> 20:28.880] We were experiencing the fresh air of democracy.
[20:28.880 --> 20:31.520] We loved our elected government.
[20:31.520 --> 20:36.000] We loved our premier, Mohamed Mossadeghi, who was like George Washington to us.
[20:36.000 --> 20:37.480] Why did you do that?
[20:37.480 --> 20:45.880] How did the Iranian people take to democracy when they got it finally in the early 50s?
[20:45.880 --> 20:50.640] Actually Iran had been working toward democracy for almost half a century then.
[20:50.640 --> 20:56.880] Iran had a constitution in 1906, something that many countries in the Middle East still
[20:56.880 --> 21:00.000] haven't gotten even now.
[21:00.000 --> 21:05.440] When the United States shakes a finger at Iran, as you mentioned earlier, and says you're
[21:05.440 --> 21:11.960] an oppressive, brutal regime over there, you should have a democracy, we have to understand
[21:11.960 --> 21:17.840] how the Iranians would look back at us and say, wait a minute, we had a democracy until
[21:17.840 --> 21:21.040] you came over and destroyed it.
[21:21.040 --> 21:27.280] This was a real tragedy, not just for Iran, but also for the United States.
[21:27.280 --> 21:33.040] If the United States had been able to live with this democracy in the Middle East, we
[21:33.040 --> 21:37.640] might have been able to change the entire dynamic of everything that's happened in that
[21:37.640 --> 21:41.400] region over this last half century.
[21:41.400 --> 21:49.840] In the early years after World War II, the winds of anti-colonialism and democracy were
[21:49.840 --> 21:53.880] blowing through the Third World, through Africa and Asia and Latin America.
[21:53.880 --> 21:59.680] In Iran, what that meant was let's elect our own government so we can take back control
[21:59.680 --> 22:00.680] of our oil.
[22:00.680 --> 22:03.520] It all went back to this one resource.
[22:03.520 --> 22:11.000] If the Iranian government had not been democratic and had not tried to respond to the desire
[22:11.000 --> 22:16.240] of its own people to take back control of this oil, we never would have overthrown it.
[22:16.240 --> 22:22.000] This is one of the real tragedies that we see in the history of American intervention,
[22:22.000 --> 22:29.120] that when governments respond to popular will, which is what democratic governments are supposed
[22:29.120 --> 22:32.240] to do, they tend to be nationalistic.
[22:32.240 --> 22:34.880] They want to do things that's good for them.
[22:34.880 --> 22:41.040] An elected government always in any country is fundamentally driven by the desire to do
[22:41.040 --> 22:46.320] what's good for our country, but the United States has never gotten to the point where
[22:46.320 --> 22:52.040] we can realize that people in other countries really want, most of all, to do what's good
[22:52.040 --> 22:53.520] for their own country.
[22:53.520 --> 22:58.880] We want them to do what's good for our country, but we don't do what's good for any other
[22:58.880 --> 22:59.880] country.
[22:59.880 --> 23:02.880] In ourselves, we do what's good for our country, which is fine.
[23:02.880 --> 23:08.560] Why shouldn't we then tolerate it when people in other countries want to do what's good
[23:08.560 --> 23:11.560] for them?
[23:11.560 --> 23:19.640] You know, again, oftentimes it's not what's good for our country.
[23:19.640 --> 23:26.480] It's what's good for the blue bloods who make all the money off of taking the natural resources
[23:26.480 --> 23:35.280] of another country at bargain-basement prices, as was the case in Iran, stealing it practically
[23:35.280 --> 23:36.280] from them.
[23:36.280 --> 23:42.760] You know, before you came on, Steve, I told our listeners what I learned from your book,
[23:42.760 --> 23:49.800] that even the process that the British used to negotiate with the corrupt former Shah
[23:49.800 --> 23:57.520] to negotiate the contract on what was to be paid in royalties to Iran, which meant really
[23:57.520 --> 24:04.200] to the Shah of Iran, who used it to go gambling in Monte Carlo, even that process was corrupted
[24:04.200 --> 24:05.200] by the British.
[24:05.200 --> 24:10.980] As I understand it from you, they paid off the Iranian negotiators and bribed them to
[24:10.980 --> 24:13.640] drive the bargain down even worse, no?
[24:13.640 --> 24:15.120] You're absolutely right.
[24:15.120 --> 24:20.840] The entire Iranian government in the pre-democratic days was on the payroll of the British Secret
[24:20.840 --> 24:21.840] Service.
[24:21.840 --> 24:27.640] The Shah and all of his chief ministers were receiving regular monthly stipends from the
[24:27.640 --> 24:28.640] British.
[24:28.640 --> 24:36.520] Now, when the Iranians finally decided that they were able to take control of their own
[24:36.520 --> 24:42.560] government, they realized that the British, the French, the Russians had been oppressing
[24:42.560 --> 24:48.960] them for so long, and the country that they turned to as an alternative was the United
[24:48.960 --> 24:49.960] States.
[24:49.960 --> 24:52.680] They really idealized America.
[24:52.680 --> 24:58.060] They thought of us as a country that was very disinterested, that only wanted to help people
[24:58.060 --> 25:03.240] in oppressed nations.
[25:03.240 --> 25:07.560] You're quite right when you talk about what's really good for America.
[25:07.560 --> 25:14.000] I do believe that it's okay for any country to act in its own interest, but what I would
[25:14.000 --> 25:20.480] like to do is let's stop and think what really is in our own interest over the long term
[25:20.480 --> 25:24.640] and not act in a way that seems successful at the moment.
[25:24.640 --> 25:29.960] We're able to crush some regime we don't like, and we feel good emotionally because like
[25:29.960 --> 25:34.360] somebody in a Western movie, we've shot down all the bad guys, but we've actually hurt
[25:34.360 --> 25:35.360] ourselves.
[25:35.360 --> 25:40.680] So it's okay if the United States acts in our own interest, but let's stop and think
[25:40.680 --> 25:46.080] about what really is in our own interest and not do things that seem successful at the
[25:46.080 --> 25:51.920] moment, but in the long run, we realize are only for the benefit of a very small group
[25:51.920 --> 25:58.440] of Americans and wind up devastating the security of our entire nation.
[25:58.440 --> 26:02.440] And to sell it to us, there's a fig leaf put on it that we're fighting communism or we're
[26:02.440 --> 26:04.200] fighting a bad guy or whatever.
[26:04.200 --> 26:08.120] Stephen, we've got a call that's been holding on the line, Jeff in Texas.
[26:08.120 --> 26:09.120] He's got a question.
[26:09.120 --> 26:11.000] Jeff, are you enjoying the program tonight?
[26:11.000 --> 26:12.000] Absolutely.
[26:12.000 --> 26:15.160] Please, please, please have this guest back.
[26:15.160 --> 26:17.000] Give all of his contact information.
[26:17.000 --> 26:18.720] I'm so impressed.
[26:18.720 --> 26:22.080] Everybody involved tonight, the guest is absolutely fascinating.
[26:22.080 --> 26:26.600] I think it's great that you were able to front so well when you couldn't get a hold of him.
[26:26.600 --> 26:28.800] I think it's great that he's willing to stay after it.
[26:28.800 --> 26:35.120] And I think it's incredible that Debra and Mr. Vail with Hammer Kelton were willing to
[26:35.120 --> 26:39.200] be so magnanimous and not to, well, it's our agenda, it's our show, we're not going to
[26:39.200 --> 26:40.200] give up anything.
[26:40.200 --> 26:46.960] They took one for the team because this information is so very important with his incredible history
[26:46.960 --> 26:52.440] and all the experience he's had and all his insights that he's earned the hard way.
[26:52.440 --> 26:58.000] Could we get him to comment on what he sees, what's going on in the international banking
[26:58.000 --> 27:00.880] system and what's happening to America today?
[27:00.880 --> 27:06.600] And it's real scary when somebody says, no, no, no, you really should look in the mirror
[27:06.600 --> 27:10.560] and think about what it's like to be in their shoes.
[27:10.560 --> 27:16.520] But yet again, even though the general public has made lots of mistakes, what can we do
[27:16.520 --> 27:21.080] now and what are some of his insights on what's happening in America today?
[27:21.080 --> 27:22.080] Thank you so very much.
[27:22.080 --> 27:23.080] This is a fascinating program.
[27:23.080 --> 27:24.080] Have him back.
[27:24.080 --> 27:25.080] Thank you.
[27:25.080 --> 27:26.080] We'll be back.
[27:26.080 --> 27:27.080] Thank you.
[27:27.080 --> 27:29.200] Well, there you go, Stephen.
[27:29.200 --> 27:36.360] What do you think about what's going on today as any of this related to the terrible system
[27:36.360 --> 27:41.720] that we find ourselves in, the corruption that is bred by these secret activities and
[27:41.720 --> 27:43.720] overthrows and corruptions of government?
[27:43.720 --> 27:49.680] Has it come back to haunt us as well in the financial crisis that we're going through?
[27:49.680 --> 27:53.920] One thing I do sense that's really driving me nuts about what I see happening in America
[27:53.920 --> 27:59.640] now is the way it looks for many poorer countries in Latin America and other parts of the world.
[27:59.640 --> 28:06.520] So all during the 1980s and 90s, we were promoting this project called the Washington Consensus,
[28:06.520 --> 28:12.720] which was a set of economic rules that we thought we had vindicated as eternal truth
[28:12.720 --> 28:17.040] once the Soviet empire fell and the U.S. felt victorious.
[28:17.040 --> 28:19.600] You were not supposed to provide any subsidies.
[28:19.600 --> 28:24.520] You were not supposed to provide low-cost bread and basic foods for ordinary people.
[28:24.520 --> 28:29.040] You could not subsidize your bus fares or things that ordinary people meant.
[28:29.040 --> 28:35.920] You had to be strictly fiscally conservative, no deficits, no sponsorship of any social
[28:35.920 --> 28:42.000] program, and we insisted that countries follow this or we cut them off completely from their
[28:42.000 --> 28:46.200] financial access to the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund and all these
[28:46.200 --> 28:50.200] other institutions that are vital to their survival.
[28:50.200 --> 29:00.240] Now, we are following the exact financial package that these countries were forbidden
[29:00.240 --> 29:01.680] by us to follow.
[29:01.680 --> 29:04.840] Well, we say, oh, now we find ourselves in a special situation.
[29:04.840 --> 29:06.080] We need to do this.
[29:06.080 --> 29:11.160] And then looking at us and saying, yeah, we needed to do that too 10 or 15 years ago,
[29:11.160 --> 29:13.920] but you didn't allow us to do it.
[29:13.920 --> 29:16.720] It shows how different the world looks from different perspectives.
[29:16.720 --> 29:19.040] Let me just give you one other example of this.
[29:19.040 --> 29:24.040] It's a little bit outside the banking network, but it really does show the difference in
[29:24.040 --> 29:25.040] perception.
[29:25.040 --> 29:27.600] And this is a story about Ecuador.
[29:27.600 --> 29:32.760] So in Ecuador, in South America, the United States maintains a very large military base.
[29:32.760 --> 29:35.600] It's actually our largest base in South America.
[29:35.600 --> 29:40.320] It's used to monitor drug flights and it's used to monitor who knows what else.
[29:40.320 --> 29:41.360] I don't know.
[29:41.360 --> 29:47.200] But in any case, in the last presidential election in Ecuador two years ago, this base
[29:47.200 --> 29:48.760] became a big issue.
[29:48.760 --> 29:52.360] One candidate said, if I get elected, I'm going to close it.
[29:52.360 --> 29:55.360] And the other one said, if I get elected, I'm going to keep it open.
[29:55.360 --> 30:00.520] The election came and the candidate who had vowed to close this base got elected.
[30:00.520 --> 30:05.520] So after that, the Americans went in and said, well, we know what you said in your campaign,
[30:05.520 --> 30:09.560] but couldn't we work out some kind of a way that you would keep this base open, it's very
[30:09.560 --> 30:11.320] important to us and so forth.
[30:11.320 --> 30:13.000] And they put a lot of pressure on them.
[30:13.000 --> 30:16.080] And finally, he gave a public speech, which was really fascinating.
[30:16.080 --> 30:19.040] This was President Rafael Correa.
[30:19.040 --> 30:23.960] He said, you know, the Americans really want to keep their base open here at Manta on our
[30:23.960 --> 30:26.200] Pacific coast here in Ecuador.
[30:26.200 --> 30:29.720] And the more I listen to them, the more I think, you know, maybe they have a point.
[30:29.720 --> 30:31.920] Okay, I am willing to compromise.
[30:31.920 --> 30:32.920] And here's my compromise.
[30:32.920 --> 30:38.160] Oh, we will allow the Americans to maintain their base here in Ecuador, as long as they
[30:38.160 --> 30:43.760] allow Ecuador to maintain a base in Florida.
[30:43.760 --> 30:44.760] We thought this was crazy.
[30:44.760 --> 30:51.440] You're not going to have soldiers from a foreign country with a base on our territory driving
[30:51.440 --> 30:57.000] around in their own jeeps with their own flag in their own uniforms, like their occupiers
[30:57.000 --> 30:58.000] in our country.
[30:58.000 --> 30:59.800] Like they own the place.
[30:59.800 --> 31:06.440] But we never think that this is what we expect every other country to accept from us.
[31:06.440 --> 31:12.240] So just the reaction that we had to President Correa's idea, which was to think, what a
[31:12.240 --> 31:19.600] crazy wacko, really shows you how we've lost touch with the way other people see the military
[31:19.600 --> 31:23.680] presence of the United States on their territory.
[31:23.680 --> 31:28.760] Stephen, I was trying to make a point before.
[31:28.760 --> 31:31.680] So many of these things are anathema to the American people.
[31:31.680 --> 31:36.400] You know, the notion that we should be destroying a democratically elected government in another
[31:36.400 --> 31:37.400] country.
[31:37.400 --> 31:39.000] That's hidden from us.
[31:39.000 --> 31:40.000] It's done in secret.
[31:40.000 --> 31:45.560] Obviously, it's done in secret because they don't want to stir up opposition in the very
[31:45.560 --> 31:48.880] country that they're pulling this off in, and they don't want to stir up opposition
[31:48.880 --> 31:49.880] right here.
[31:49.880 --> 31:52.360] So some other fig leaf is employed.
[31:52.360 --> 31:58.080] In the case of the Americans, we were told, oh, that this guy must have that, even though
[31:58.080 --> 32:04.800] he's a Democrat, a democratically elected, he's going to be a go-communist and so forth.
[32:04.800 --> 32:10.280] In Iran, and this is such a key point that I'd like you to speak to, in Iran, how do
[32:10.280 --> 32:17.640] you buffalo an entire people into giving up such a precious thing that they all participated
[32:17.640 --> 32:20.080] in and that they all want?
[32:20.080 --> 32:22.480] How do you make them think that they don't want it?
[32:22.480 --> 32:23.960] And there's a term called astroturfing.
[32:23.960 --> 32:29.280] I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it's a way that you create what appears to
[32:29.280 --> 32:31.520] be a grassroots movement, but it's plastic.
[32:31.520 --> 32:32.520] It's artificial.
[32:32.520 --> 32:37.600] Isn't that a technique that was employed in Iran in the early 50s?
[32:37.600 --> 32:43.480] Now, you're getting to a point that I think is very important, and that is that the only
[32:43.480 --> 32:51.320] reason we were able to overthrow the government of Iran in 1953 and the democratic government
[32:51.320 --> 32:57.640] of Guatemala 10 months later, which we also overthrow, is that those governments were
[32:57.640 --> 32:58.640] democratic.
[32:58.640 --> 32:59.640] They were open.
[32:59.640 --> 33:01.160] They had a free press.
[33:01.160 --> 33:02.920] They had independent labor unions.
[33:02.920 --> 33:05.120] They had student organizations.
[33:05.120 --> 33:06.120] There were protests.
[33:06.120 --> 33:08.000] Anybody could say what they wanted.
[33:08.000 --> 33:14.840] Civil society was tolerated and encouraged, so the CIA took advantage of that openness
[33:14.840 --> 33:18.800] and used it to crush democratic regimes.
[33:18.800 --> 33:25.080] If the leaders of those regimes had been dictators, like we said they were, they wouldn't have
[33:25.080 --> 33:26.080] had open society.
[33:26.080 --> 33:28.400] They would have protected themselves.
[33:28.400 --> 33:33.120] The only reason we were able to overthrow them is that they were democratic.
[33:33.120 --> 33:35.440] Let me give you one wonderful example of this.
[33:35.440 --> 33:41.880] In Guatemala in the early 1950s, the elected democratic government was carrying out a land
[33:41.880 --> 33:48.160] reform which bothered the United Group Company and a number of other social programs.
[33:48.160 --> 33:53.320] This really excited a lot of idealists from all over Latin America, and they started coming
[33:53.320 --> 33:58.080] to Guatemala to watch what was happening there and see if they could get some ideas for their
[33:58.080 --> 33:59.080] own country.
[33:59.080 --> 34:05.720] One of these idealists who came to Guatemala in the early 1950s to watch this process unfold
[34:05.720 --> 34:10.720] was a young Argentine doctor named Che Guevara.
[34:10.720 --> 34:17.640] Che Guevara was actually in Guatemala when the U.S. CIA overthrew the democratic government
[34:17.640 --> 34:18.640] there.
[34:18.640 --> 34:22.800] He had to flee into the Mexican embassy, and finally some weeks later he was able to get
[34:22.800 --> 34:24.160] back to Mexico.
[34:24.160 --> 34:29.920] In Mexico he met Fidel Castro, who was planning his revolution in Cuba.
[34:29.920 --> 34:34.520] So Castro was really interested in what had happened in Guatemala, and he kept asking
[34:34.520 --> 34:36.920] Che Guevara, so what happened?
[34:36.920 --> 34:38.680] What did the CIA do?
[34:38.680 --> 34:40.640] What lessons can we learn from this?
[34:40.640 --> 34:48.280] And Che told him the way the CIA carried this out is they took advantage of the fact that
[34:48.280 --> 34:53.360] the government in Guatemala was democratic, so what that means for us is that as soon
[34:53.360 --> 34:57.680] as we take over in Cuba, we have to impose a total dictatorship.
[34:57.680 --> 35:03.000] No free press, no independent trade unions, no civic groups, no student organizations,
[35:03.000 --> 35:07.600] because if we allow democracy, the CIA will come in and overthrow us.
[35:07.600 --> 35:14.560] This is the lesson that we taught to an entire generation of rising leaders in Latin America.
[35:14.560 --> 35:20.640] If you want to impose a program of social progress and reform, do not do it with democracy.
[35:20.640 --> 35:25.440] Do it with dictatorship, because otherwise the CIA will come in and overthrow you.
[35:25.440 --> 35:32.000] What a lesson this was to teach a whole generation and twist the history of a whole continent.
[35:32.000 --> 35:37.840] We paid rent to crowds to convince people that there was a popular discontent with the
[35:37.840 --> 35:42.680] democratically elected institutions that they just put into place and so forth.
[35:42.680 --> 35:48.440] The main lesson is, Stephen, how can we be assured that this kind of surreptitious psychological
[35:48.440 --> 35:54.640] operations are then not going to be learned by the American operatives who so successfully
[35:54.640 --> 35:58.640] employ them overseas, and then turned around and used against us?
[35:58.640 --> 36:01.280] What kind of assurances do we have?
[36:01.280 --> 36:03.080] How can we protect ourselves from that?
[36:03.080 --> 36:05.680] There doesn't seem to be very much oversight of these things.
[36:05.680 --> 36:09.640] I don't know how journalists like you get to the bottom of it, but once you do, it's
[36:09.640 --> 36:15.440] not man bites dog news, it's not on the front page, it's not being shouted from the rooftops.
[36:15.440 --> 36:19.720] How can we protect ourselves to make sure that this technique then is not turned around
[36:19.720 --> 36:21.200] and employed against us?
[36:21.200 --> 36:26.400] As a very profound question, I think people like you and me are trying to do our best
[36:26.400 --> 36:29.880] to bang our spoons on the eye chair.
[36:29.880 --> 36:36.520] I think it's very important for us to realize that knowledge is power.
[36:36.520 --> 36:43.040] We are eager to support interventions in foreign countries because we really don't understand
[36:43.040 --> 36:44.360] what lies behind them.
[36:44.360 --> 36:46.440] We don't have the information.
[36:46.440 --> 36:51.280] We don't take the time or the effort to try to figure out what lies behind what our government
[36:51.280 --> 36:52.280] is teaching us.
[36:52.280 --> 36:56.160] I really think that the press is partly responsible for this.
[36:56.160 --> 36:59.920] It's one of the reasons that ultimately I left the New York Times.
[36:59.920 --> 37:08.520] I think sometimes the press develops this idea that America is a team, and the president
[37:08.520 --> 37:11.640] is something like the manager of the team.
[37:11.640 --> 37:17.760] When the team has a contest or conflict, the manager tells us what to do, and everybody
[37:17.760 --> 37:20.480] has to play their role, and the press is part of that.
[37:20.480 --> 37:21.880] This is totally wrong.
[37:21.880 --> 37:25.400] The press is not supposed to be on anybody's team.
[37:25.400 --> 37:30.880] We are supposed to be independent, so that's our job, and then I think the job of ordinary
[37:30.880 --> 37:35.480] people who are reading what we're producing and listening and seeing what we're producing
[37:35.480 --> 37:42.680] is to try to discriminate, to try to second-guess what you're hearing from people in power.
[37:42.680 --> 37:48.280] Don't always assume that the motivations for which they're acting are the ones for which
[37:48.280 --> 37:50.920] they claim to be acting.
[37:50.920 --> 37:54.400] Well, Stephen, we could go on and on.
[37:54.400 --> 38:00.000] You and I are both a couple of real talkers, I'll tell you that, but it's the quality of
[38:00.000 --> 38:03.440] your work that is so important to get out there.
[38:03.440 --> 38:08.560] I've been wanting to bring you and our listeners together for some time here on the radio side
[38:08.560 --> 38:13.720] of INN, and I want to thank Randy and Debra so much for allowing us to go over.
[38:13.720 --> 38:18.960] I hope that you guys feel that it was a worthwhile effort because you don't get this kind of
[38:18.960 --> 38:19.960] information.
[38:19.960 --> 38:24.440] Stephen, can we have you back on again when we can stretch out and talk a little more
[38:24.440 --> 38:29.560] about this and so many other topics that you've also worked so hard to uncover and get the
[38:29.560 --> 38:31.460] light of day on?
[38:31.460 --> 38:35.360] I'd love to do it, and we'll be sure to start talking to you next time.
[38:35.360 --> 38:36.360] That will be so great.
[38:36.360 --> 38:41.280] Stephen, how can people who are interested in what they heard tonight and what they heard
[38:41.280 --> 38:44.000] you say, how can they get some more information?
[38:44.000 --> 38:48.360] Can you tell them where they can find some of your books and do you have a website or
[38:48.360 --> 38:50.800] something that they can go to?
[38:50.800 --> 38:59.280] I do, actually, so I have it at www.stevenkinser.com, so it's Stephen with a P-H and then K-I-N-Z-E-R.
[38:59.280 --> 39:03.760] On that website, there are links to buy all my books, and my regular columns in The Guardian
[39:03.760 --> 39:10.200] are all on there, and my other op-ed pieces, and various other photos of my wild adventures
[39:10.200 --> 39:16.480] in bizarre countries in the world, so check it out and join us all in doing the project
[39:16.480 --> 39:23.160] that you yourself are so vigorously promoting, trying to open the minds of the people of
[39:23.160 --> 39:24.520] this great country.
[39:24.520 --> 39:30.000] I do feel that although people in many countries are ignorant about the outside world, it doesn't
[39:30.000 --> 39:35.880] really matter if the people in, let's say, Paraguay don't know much about Iran, it's
[39:35.880 --> 39:42.240] too bad, but it won't really hurt Iran, but in America, where we have our ignorance paired
[39:42.240 --> 39:48.240] with power, it's hugely important that we break out of that ignorance, because when
[39:48.240 --> 39:54.160] we're ignorant, it can cause tremendous damage to the world and to our own country.
[39:54.160 --> 39:58.920] It can cause death and destruction on a huge scale with the technology that we have today.
[39:58.920 --> 40:00.640] Stephen, thank you so much.
[40:00.640 --> 40:04.280] I will be in touch with you, maybe do a little pre-interview too, because I want to catch
[40:04.280 --> 40:07.360] up on some of the newer things that you've been up to.
[40:07.360 --> 40:10.320] Debra and Randy, thank you so much for allowing us to go over.
[40:10.320 --> 40:15.460] I am sure you'll agree that it was worthwhile, because you don't get the kind of information
[40:15.460 --> 40:19.560] that we get from somebody who worked so hard to uncover it, like we did tonight from Stephen
[40:19.560 --> 40:20.560] Kinzer.
[40:20.560 --> 40:21.560] Thank you so much.
[40:21.560 --> 40:27.160] And thank you both, this has been very informative, and people really need to know what our government
[40:27.160 --> 40:34.200] has been doing over the last century, at least intervening in foreign governments and overthrowing
[40:34.200 --> 40:40.680] democratically elected governments, destroying countries, and it's just been horrible.
[40:40.680 --> 40:43.600] In our name and with our tax dollars as well.
[40:43.600 --> 40:44.600] Exactly.
[40:44.600 --> 40:47.000] Well, thank you all, and I'm going to hand it back over to you.
[40:47.000 --> 40:48.000] Thanks a lot.
[40:48.000 --> 40:51.880] I'll be in touch, thank you so much, and we hope to have you back on soon, okay?
[40:51.880 --> 40:52.880] Thank you, Stephen.
[40:52.880 --> 40:53.880] I'll look forward to it.
[40:53.880 --> 40:54.880] Thank you.
[40:54.880 --> 40:55.880] Thank you, Randy.
[40:55.880 --> 40:56.880] Thank you very much.
[40:56.880 --> 40:57.880] You are most welcome.
[40:57.880 --> 40:58.880] Okay.
[40:58.880 --> 40:59.880] Yes.
[40:59.880 --> 41:00.880] I'm going to...
[41:00.880 --> 41:05.680] Tom Kiley signing out, and thank you all who listened in tonight, expecting to hear
[41:05.680 --> 41:06.680] Randy and Debra.
[41:06.680 --> 41:10.240] I'm sorry that we ran a little over, but I hope that you liked it, and I'm turning the
[41:10.240 --> 41:11.280] floor back over to them.
[41:11.280 --> 41:13.000] It's Miller time for me right now.
[41:13.000 --> 41:14.000] Right.
[41:14.000 --> 41:15.000] Okay, Tom, good deal.
[41:15.000 --> 41:16.000] Thanks a lot.
[41:16.000 --> 41:17.000] Good night.
[41:17.000 --> 41:18.000] Thanks for joining us tonight.
[41:18.000 --> 41:19.000] Okay.
[41:19.000 --> 41:20.000] Thank you.
[41:20.000 --> 41:21.000] All right.
[41:21.000 --> 41:25.560] That was Tom Kiley, listeners from INN World Report, INN World Report radio.
[41:25.560 --> 41:31.160] We run INN World Report headline news at the beginnings of all our shows here, and he is
[41:31.160 --> 41:38.440] a host here, Tuesdays and Thursdays from 6 to 8 Central Time, and he always has very
[41:38.440 --> 41:44.000] interesting guests, very informative guests, and there was an issue earlier this evening.
[41:44.000 --> 41:49.640] I guess somebody got their time zones crossed, and so the guests came on an hour late, so
[41:49.640 --> 41:56.600] we decided to let them continue on to our show because there's such very crucial information
[41:56.600 --> 41:57.600] here.
[41:57.600 --> 42:01.480] Actually, I wanted to listen.
[42:01.480 --> 42:03.960] You just wanted to listen.
[42:03.960 --> 42:11.520] I lived through these times, and for the most part, the information I got was the standard
[42:11.520 --> 42:12.520] propaganda.
[42:12.520 --> 42:13.520] Right.
[42:13.520 --> 42:21.880] But even at the time, I was still in high school or just out of school, and I looked
[42:21.880 --> 42:27.240] at this, and I kept thinking, something's wrong here.
[42:27.240 --> 42:32.520] They're not telling us everything, even back then, and the more I found out about it, the
[42:32.520 --> 42:37.960] uglier it got, and the more ashamed I got.
[42:37.960 --> 42:44.360] I have spent time in foreign countries, and there were times I was embarrassed to be an
[42:44.360 --> 42:52.560] American, so I'm real pleased to hear that kind of information out, and I hope that Americans
[42:52.560 --> 42:55.960] find themselves somewhat humbled.
[42:55.960 --> 43:03.040] I expect the next few years will be a very humbling experience for the people of America.
[43:03.040 --> 43:04.040] Indeed.
[43:04.040 --> 43:08.640] Well, we're about to go into a break, and so I just wanted to open up the phone lines
[43:08.640 --> 43:09.640] now.
[43:09.640 --> 43:15.240] Callers, if you'd like to call in, 512-646-1984.
[43:15.240 --> 43:19.640] You're welcome to comment on the previous topic or open up a new topic, so please go
[43:19.640 --> 43:21.840] ahead and call in 512-646-1984.
[43:21.840 --> 43:29.520] We've got about another hour and 15 minutes here, so we'll be taking your calls and discussing
[43:29.520 --> 43:32.360] legal issues.
[43:32.360 --> 43:35.560] We do have a caller, Aaron, on the line, Aaron from Texas.
[43:35.560 --> 43:40.640] We'll be taking Aaron's call first, and the rest of y'all go ahead and call in.
[43:40.640 --> 43:41.640] We'll be right back.
[43:41.640 --> 44:00.120] This is the Rule of Law, Randy Kelton and Deborah Stevens here on Rule of Law Radio.
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[45:32.800 --> 45:52.680] Without further ado, thank you.
[45:52.680 --> 46:12.880] All right, watching the sparks fly here on Rule of Law Radio, ruleoflawradio.com.
[46:12.880 --> 46:17.240] Okay, again, sorry for any inconveniences listeners.
[46:17.240 --> 46:21.600] Hopefully you enjoyed the last few segments with Tom, Kylie and Stephen Kinzer.
[46:21.600 --> 46:26.800] All right, we are now going to our first caller, Aaron from Texas, and Aaron, you wanted to
[46:26.800 --> 46:32.440] comment and question on what happened on Monday regarding the police and the blood and the
[46:32.440 --> 46:36.440] breathalyzers and all this stuff, and you had some other issues as well, so go ahead,
[46:36.440 --> 46:37.440] Aaron.
[46:37.440 --> 46:42.840] Well, there's a lot of law surrounding this right now, and I read some of the code today,
[46:42.840 --> 46:48.600] and I just, you know, I'm a little concerned about the amount that our fourth minute of
[46:48.600 --> 46:53.720] rights are being just completely squashed in this area, and particularly in the area
[46:53.720 --> 46:58.320] of vehicles and travel and this kind of, I just can't wait for somebody to win a right
[46:58.320 --> 47:06.400] to travel case, but I guess here's one of my questions, and we'll just start here.
[47:06.400 --> 47:12.200] At what point do you have to give consent for an officer to search your vehicle, or
[47:12.200 --> 47:16.400] at what point can he just decide he wants to search your vehicle?
[47:16.400 --> 47:21.840] Because I know there's an automobile exception to the Fourth Amendment, and I think that
[47:21.840 --> 47:26.640] originally started out as they're afraid the evidence is going to drive away, and so
[47:26.640 --> 47:32.080] they need to get in and look at it really quickly, but that's since, from what I understand,
[47:32.080 --> 47:37.120] that's since been extended so that now they can do it just for the heck of it.
[47:37.120 --> 47:39.680] I don't know where you draw the line, and that's what I'm curious about.
[47:39.680 --> 47:41.880] No, they can't do it just for the heck of it.
[47:41.880 --> 47:44.200] They have to have probable cause.
[47:44.200 --> 47:50.760] Now they can search that part of the vehicle that you could sit in the driver's seat and
[47:50.760 --> 47:55.320] reach and secure a weapon.
[47:55.320 --> 47:58.440] They can search that for their safety's sake.
[47:58.440 --> 48:04.840] That does not include opening an ashtray or, you know, places where...
[48:04.840 --> 48:06.600] Or the trunk.
[48:06.600 --> 48:08.400] Or the trunk.
[48:08.400 --> 48:12.360] Or some compartment in the backseat that you couldn't reach if you were sitting in the
[48:12.360 --> 48:13.360] driver's seat.
[48:13.360 --> 48:19.240] Now, if you're concerned about an officer searching your vehicle, when he asks you to
[48:19.240 --> 48:22.960] exit the vehicle, roll up the windows and lock the doors.
[48:22.960 --> 48:27.920] If he wants them open, he can get a warrant.
[48:27.920 --> 48:28.920] Okay.
[48:28.920 --> 48:31.920] That makes sense.
[48:31.920 --> 48:32.920] And they would need a warrant to...
[48:32.920 --> 48:37.280] I mean, I guess if they arrest you and they impound the vehicle, they can do...
[48:37.280 --> 48:40.360] They could take an inventory of everything in the vehicle.
[48:40.360 --> 48:44.320] Problem is, is they never take an accurate inventory.
[48:44.320 --> 48:47.360] And they use that as an excuse to search.
[48:47.360 --> 48:52.680] So if they don't have an accurate inventory, you get to go after them for it anyway.
[48:52.680 --> 48:56.560] Because they didn't really do an inventory, they just did a search under the excuse of
[48:56.560 --> 48:57.560] an inventory.
[48:57.560 --> 48:58.560] Yes.
[48:58.560 --> 49:04.600] But until we actually go after them, they're going to do anything they want to.
[49:04.600 --> 49:08.760] That's why I kind of feel like the policy is right now, they're just going to walk around
[49:08.760 --> 49:09.760] and do whatever they want.
[49:09.760 --> 49:15.280] I've got people telling me that the legal definition is probable cause, and people telling
[49:15.280 --> 49:21.040] me that the legal definition is reasonable police or reasonable suspicion.
[49:21.040 --> 49:23.600] And I just keep backing up saying, well, where do we draw the line here?
[49:23.600 --> 49:28.360] There has to be some point that we say, this is really what's required.
[49:28.360 --> 49:30.960] And I can't find a lot of that in law.
[49:30.960 --> 49:31.960] I can't find this...
[49:31.960 --> 49:37.920] I mean, I guess it's common law, it's case law, that's making a lot of these determinations.
[49:37.920 --> 49:39.920] I really prefer statute.
[49:39.920 --> 49:42.560] It goes to objective reasonableness.
[49:42.560 --> 49:48.760] But at this point, we don't have any objectively reasonable judges.
[49:48.760 --> 49:55.480] They're just there to crank out the dollar, so heck, it didn't make any difference.
[49:55.480 --> 50:01.400] At the meeting the other night, I had this nice statement prepared for them, but I didn't
[50:01.400 --> 50:02.400] get to use that.
[50:02.400 --> 50:05.040] All they could do is ask a question.
[50:05.040 --> 50:07.680] But that's what I wanted to focus them on.
[50:07.680 --> 50:10.000] Why are you wasting all this time?
[50:10.000 --> 50:11.520] Why are you even focusing on this?
[50:11.520 --> 50:14.680] It doesn't matter.
[50:14.680 --> 50:16.060] They convict everybody.
[50:16.060 --> 50:19.960] You need more evidence when they convict everybody?
[50:19.960 --> 50:21.320] What's the point?
[50:21.320 --> 50:25.160] Unless we get courts back, it doesn't do any good to convict everybody because they go
[50:25.160 --> 50:29.680] in there and the prosecutor runs them through the deal, they pay a little money, they're
[50:29.680 --> 50:32.040] back out on the street.
[50:32.040 --> 50:38.280] Courts do their job, get them in there, but the courts don't do the job to follow up.
[50:38.280 --> 50:46.520] So poking needles in people to get more evidence when you've got 99.6% conviction rate, why?
[50:46.520 --> 50:54.280] Well, yeah, and we asked that woman from the Mothers Against Drunk Driving what that was
[50:54.280 --> 50:55.280] all about.
[50:55.280 --> 51:01.200] And, Randy, you pointed that out to her when we interviewed her after the event on Monday,
[51:01.200 --> 51:06.080] and she was saying, well, you know, part of the reason is because they may have that high
[51:06.080 --> 51:10.720] of a conviction rate, but in drunk driving cases, they don't have that high of a conviction
[51:10.720 --> 51:18.920] rate for drunk driving because the charges end up getting dealt down to reckless driving
[51:18.920 --> 51:23.840] or something like that, and so the people never go down for driving drunk.
[51:23.840 --> 51:28.600] But I don't think that the reason for that is because the prosecutor doesn't have enough
[51:28.600 --> 51:34.320] evidence to actually nail him for drunk driving, and so we've got to have blood now in order
[51:34.320 --> 51:40.000] to have the evidence so that these cases don't get dealt down to reckless driving.
[51:40.000 --> 51:43.480] I mean, I'm sorry, that just doesn't add up to me.
[51:43.480 --> 51:48.680] And it's very unfortunate, too, because I feel sorry for these people who have lost
[51:48.680 --> 51:54.680] family members or they know people who have lost family members, all right, and they believe
[51:54.680 --> 52:00.280] in their cause, and, you know, just like me with 9-11, I feel for those people, and I've
[52:00.280 --> 52:05.800] made it a mission to do something about it, so I understand where they're coming from,
[52:05.800 --> 52:11.040] but the thing is, the thing that's really the most sad about all of this is that what
[52:11.040 --> 52:18.120] these people are advocating is not going to help their cause at all.
[52:18.120 --> 52:20.440] All it's going to do is hurt more people.
[52:20.440 --> 52:21.440] Exactly.
[52:21.440 --> 52:28.360] And, you know, if you're not doing, if what you're doing is not working, it doesn't help
[52:28.360 --> 52:29.360] to do it harder.
[52:29.360 --> 52:32.480] I mean, that's a human characteristic.
[52:32.480 --> 52:35.560] If what we're doing is not working, well, we'll try it harder.
[52:35.560 --> 52:37.400] Maybe it'll work this time.
[52:37.400 --> 52:45.300] We tend not to back up and say, well, maybe our whole premise is skewed.
[52:45.300 --> 52:48.080] Maybe there are other factors.
[52:48.080 --> 52:56.600] We use our logic and reason, and we logically reason that if we punish someone hard enough,
[52:56.600 --> 52:58.360] then they will change their behavior.
[52:58.360 --> 53:03.560] Well, in some cases that works, and in some it doesn't.
[53:03.560 --> 53:08.160] Doesn't work with cigarettes, it doesn't work with drugs, and it doesn't work with alcohol.
[53:08.160 --> 53:10.760] It doesn't work with prostitution.
[53:10.760 --> 53:12.560] Prostitution should give them a clue.
[53:12.560 --> 53:14.720] It's been around forever.
[53:14.720 --> 53:21.640] Nothing any country has ever done has gotten rid of it.
[53:21.640 --> 53:25.000] You should learn something from that.
[53:25.000 --> 53:26.480] Just knock it off.
[53:26.480 --> 53:31.920] Do like a lot of these Asian countries do, give them green cards to keep them from spreading
[53:31.920 --> 53:36.800] disease and quit trying to fix what can't be fixed.
[53:36.800 --> 53:44.120] I mean, that's like saying, okay, people, you only get to breathe every third breath.
[53:44.120 --> 53:48.440] These things are the way human beings are, we're not going to change that.
[53:48.440 --> 53:55.200] Better we treat the symptom and try to improve the symptom than try to beat people up with
[53:55.200 --> 54:00.600] a set of tools that just does not have the effect they intend.
[54:00.600 --> 54:04.080] This taking blood is nonsense.
[54:04.080 --> 54:10.040] That's why I had a lot of issues that I'd like to ask questions about, but what I really
[54:10.040 --> 54:20.120] wanted to be able to do was tell everybody listening that we have a 99.6% conviction
[54:20.120 --> 54:22.640] rate.
[54:22.640 --> 54:28.440] I suspect that tensed up a lot of folks when they heard that.
[54:28.440 --> 54:34.840] It certainly tense the chief because I nailed him with it before he got in the meeting.
[54:34.840 --> 54:38.200] Oh no, no, it can't be that high.
[54:38.200 --> 54:39.200] Oh yeah, it is.
[54:39.200 --> 54:40.480] Here's my statistician here.
[54:40.480 --> 54:44.600] He said, ask him, what is the average conviction rate?
[54:44.600 --> 54:56.160] And he said, well, yeah, it's about 99% and frankly, the chief seemed to be stunned.
[54:56.160 --> 55:05.920] He was really taken aback and I was hoping that the people listening would be taken aback,
[55:05.920 --> 55:11.880] especially that NAACP or whichever one she was with.
[55:11.880 --> 55:13.880] ACLU, Randy.
[55:13.880 --> 55:15.840] ACLU, same difference.
[55:15.840 --> 55:21.840] They're both public relations agencies for the attorneys and I think she was the most
[55:21.840 --> 55:23.840] worthless one up there.
[55:23.840 --> 55:29.280] Aaron, you said you had some more comments also, right?
[55:29.280 --> 55:37.440] Well, I guess just coming back to the driving and the breathalyzer thing, as I understand
[55:37.440 --> 55:41.680] and I read the code, refusing a breathalyzer results in an automatic suspension of your
[55:41.680 --> 55:49.800] license to 180 days starting 40 days after the date of the event unless you have any
[55:49.800 --> 55:55.200] prior run-ins with law enforcement relating to alcohol at all.
[55:55.200 --> 56:00.480] And if you have anything, and that doesn't mean conviction, you have anything, any notes
[56:00.480 --> 56:05.760] on your file, I guess, that they pull up in their car, then it's a two-year suspension
[56:05.760 --> 56:08.280] instead.
[56:08.280 --> 56:12.720] And that doesn't mean that's not reliant on conviction or anything, that's just automatic
[56:12.720 --> 56:13.720] if you refuse.
[56:13.720 --> 56:19.160] But I did, in reading the code, learn that there's a hearing that you can go to and you
[56:19.160 --> 56:24.200] can argue this suspension and they'll postpone the suspension until the hearing and things
[56:24.200 --> 56:25.200] like that.
[56:25.200 --> 56:31.560] And the interesting thing that I saw in the hearing was there's four things that come
[56:31.560 --> 56:36.040] into question at the hearing, you know, did you refuse is one of them.
[56:36.040 --> 56:42.880] But one of them is did reasonable suspicion or probable cause exist to stop you in the
[56:42.880 --> 56:45.640] first place?
[56:45.640 --> 56:50.800] Which I was impressed that that is actually in there, because if you're driving along
[56:50.800 --> 56:58.440] and I would expect that this is a DUI checkpoint question right here, since this is so relevant,
[56:58.440 --> 57:04.360] if you go up to a DUI checkpoint and you refuse a breathalyzer and they suspend your license,
[57:04.360 --> 57:08.200] then you could go and have your administrative hearing and the very first point they have
[57:08.200 --> 57:13.800] to prove is that reasonable suspicion or probable cause existed to stop you in the first place.
[57:13.800 --> 57:16.520] Not at a checkpoint.
[57:16.520 --> 57:19.880] Not if they stop everyone.
[57:19.880 --> 57:24.200] I'm sorry, I don't think those checkpoints are constitutional.
[57:24.200 --> 57:29.160] The constitution doesn't say that it's okay to search without a warrant as long as they
[57:29.160 --> 57:30.360] search everybody.
[57:30.360 --> 57:33.040] I'm sorry, that just does not fly.
[57:33.040 --> 57:40.040] But the Supreme Court has ruled that if the police stop everyone equally and don't single
[57:40.040 --> 57:46.880] anyone out for special treatment, they can do the stops like the driver's license check.
[57:46.880 --> 57:50.760] Well, I'm sorry, that's unconstitutional, so we're just going to have to bring it back
[57:50.760 --> 57:56.160] to the Supreme Court again, because the Fourth Amendment says they have to have a warrant.
[57:56.160 --> 57:59.000] It doesn't say that the cops can search everybody.
[57:59.000 --> 58:06.180] Well, they're not searching, they're just looking at the person and trying to determine
[58:06.180 --> 58:08.360] if they have probable cause.
[58:08.360 --> 58:10.520] I'm sorry, that doesn't fly.
[58:10.520 --> 58:11.520] That does not fly.
[58:11.520 --> 58:14.440] They don't get to do that.
[58:14.440 --> 58:19.480] They get to watch you drive down the road, and if you weave or whatever, then they can
[58:19.480 --> 58:20.480] have probable cause.
[58:20.480 --> 58:25.840] They don't get to pull everyone over and look at you and decide if they think they may determine
[58:25.840 --> 58:26.840] probable cause.
[58:26.840 --> 58:31.120] That's still a search, because otherwise they would have no reason to stop you at all.
[58:31.120 --> 58:36.040] I totally disagree, so we're just going to have to bring it back into the courts.
[58:36.040 --> 58:39.200] All right, Aaron, we're going to break.
[58:39.200 --> 58:40.200] Do you have anything else first?
[58:40.200 --> 58:41.800] Do you want to stay on to the other side?
[58:41.800 --> 58:44.160] We've got Jim from Texas and some others.
[58:44.160 --> 58:45.400] I've got one more point.
[58:45.400 --> 58:46.400] Okay, one more point.
[58:46.400 --> 58:47.400] Aaron, stay on the line.
[58:47.400 --> 58:52.920] We've got Jim and others, callers 512-646-1984.
[58:52.920 --> 59:21.960] We'll be right back.
[01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:44.440] All right, we're chatting down, Babylon.
[01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:48.320] This is the rule of law, ruleoflawradio.com.
[01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:51.680] All right, we are here with Aaron from Texas.
[01:00:51.680 --> 01:00:55.800] We've got another Aaron from Texas that's also called in, and Jim from Texas.
[01:00:55.800 --> 01:01:00.760] Jim, you're up next after Aaron number one, and then we'll go to Aaron number two after
[01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:01.760] Jim.
[01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:02.760] Okay, so go ahead, Aaron number one.
[01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:06.040] You said you had one more question for us.
[01:01:06.040 --> 01:01:12.480] Well, just finishing off that point real quick, my statement is that the administrative hearings
[01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:18.600] suggest that they have to prove four things, or that you can disprove them on four counts,
[01:01:18.600 --> 01:01:23.640] one of which is that they did not have probable cause for the stop.
[01:01:23.640 --> 01:01:27.720] It doesn't say they did not have probable cause for the stop if they needed probable
[01:01:27.720 --> 01:01:34.800] cause, so I'm hoping that they wouldn't be able to dismiss it based on the fact that
[01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:42.320] it specifically states in Texas law, not in federal law or anything like that, but it
[01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:47.200] specifically states in federal law that they have to have probable cause or reasonable
[01:01:47.200 --> 01:01:54.720] suspicion for the stop arrest, so I'm hoping that that would work, but maybe it wouldn't.
[01:01:54.720 --> 01:01:57.160] Don't think it will.
[01:01:57.160 --> 01:02:05.920] That particular piece of federal law is not going to migrate, because we have laws establishing
[01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:09.760] the Constitution would apply, but not necessarily the federal statute.
[01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:12.320] No, no, state statute.
[01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:18.160] I'm saying the federal statute, the federal Constitution would apply to the state, but
[01:02:18.160 --> 01:02:25.000] not necessarily a federal statute apply to the state, only if the state had no statute
[01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:28.040] addressing the issue.
[01:02:28.040 --> 01:02:34.000] As long as the state statute didn't violate the Constitution, the federal statutes won't
[01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:38.080] really be in effect, won't have an effect.
[01:02:38.080 --> 01:02:42.520] There's only one more thing, and that's just something I wanted to share.
[01:02:42.520 --> 01:02:49.960] At the very bottom of that area of transportation code, it says that if a criminal charge result
[01:02:49.960 --> 01:02:54.560] or comes out of this stop where your license gets suspended because you refuse to press
[01:02:54.560 --> 01:03:00.200] a license, if the criminal charge comes out of it and you are acquitted, then the suspension
[01:03:00.200 --> 01:03:07.400] goes away as well, so I just wanted to put that out there, and I don't know, I suppose
[01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:11.040] if you're going to get your license suspended, you should really shoot for that criminal
[01:03:11.040 --> 01:03:13.720] charge, so you can get your license back.
[01:03:13.720 --> 01:03:22.960] Yeah, if you get a, if you get, yeah, that's one of the things that I consider to be unconstitutional.
[01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:31.600] They're punishing you for exercising a right, and claiming to restrict a privilege when
[01:03:31.600 --> 01:03:35.960] the privilege is not a privilege, it's a right.
[01:03:35.960 --> 01:03:41.960] I have a problem with that, but that goes back to the right to drive issue.
[01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:42.960] Right to travel.
[01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:43.960] Right to travel.
[01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:54.640] There are other ways of dealing with this, other than calling driving a privilege, just
[01:03:54.640 --> 01:03:59.680] other more reasonable ways of handling it, and I'd like to see them do that, but it's
[01:03:59.680 --> 01:04:02.480] not a place I'm going to go yet.
[01:04:02.480 --> 01:04:06.320] I will get to the driving issue, I just haven't yet.
[01:04:06.320 --> 01:04:10.080] All right, well that was all my stuff.
[01:04:10.080 --> 01:04:11.080] I appreciate your time, guys.
[01:04:11.080 --> 01:04:13.200] All right, thank you, Aaron.
[01:04:13.200 --> 01:04:15.520] Okay, that's Aaron from Texas.
[01:04:15.520 --> 01:04:19.000] All right, we are going to go now to Jim from Texas.
[01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:20.720] Jim, thanks for calling in.
[01:04:20.720 --> 01:04:23.720] What's on your mind tonight?
[01:04:23.720 --> 01:04:24.720] Jim?
[01:04:24.720 --> 01:04:25.720] Okay.
[01:04:25.720 --> 01:04:26.720] Hello, is that me?
[01:04:26.720 --> 01:04:27.720] There he is.
[01:04:27.720 --> 01:04:28.720] What's on your mind tonight, Jim?
[01:04:28.720 --> 01:04:29.720] Okay.
[01:04:29.720 --> 01:04:40.080] Well, I called out another Jim, and then they queued me up, but anyway, yeah, I was calling
[01:04:40.080 --> 01:04:45.520] to ask Randy about a speeding citation.
[01:04:45.520 --> 01:04:53.600] I had gotten one through a little town called Santa Ana on my way from Abilene to Austin.
[01:04:53.600 --> 01:04:59.280] Randy, do you recall the email on that?
[01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:00.280] No.
[01:05:00.280 --> 01:05:06.080] Abilene to Austin, I've got a couple on speeding recently.
[01:05:06.080 --> 01:05:12.920] Well, you had sent me a returning mail.
[01:05:12.920 --> 01:05:22.560] It was an attachment for a, I'm trying to think what it was now, something about the
[01:05:22.560 --> 01:05:23.560] appearance.
[01:05:23.560 --> 01:05:27.000] Yeah, how long ago did you get the ticket?
[01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:30.000] It was a week ago today.
[01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.800] Have you been to the court yet?
[01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:33.800] No.
[01:05:33.800 --> 01:05:42.640] Actually, the first email I got back from you, I don't know how it was worded now, but
[01:05:42.640 --> 01:05:47.080] anyway, I thought you were telling me that I didn't have to appear, and I sent an email
[01:05:47.080 --> 01:05:51.000] back to you trying to clarify that.
[01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:57.360] And it wasn't until the next evening that I got an email back from you saying, yes,
[01:05:57.360 --> 01:06:05.240] you do need to appear, and you have the attachment with it, the form to fill out, to give to
[01:06:05.240 --> 01:06:07.040] them and have filed there.
[01:06:07.040 --> 01:06:09.040] I did appear.
[01:06:09.040 --> 01:06:10.520] Good, good.
[01:06:10.520 --> 01:06:11.520] You take that with you.
[01:06:11.520 --> 01:06:18.160] The thing is, I emailed you, but I can't do that now.
[01:06:18.160 --> 01:06:23.880] I got into it because the time was getting short because today was the last day I could
[01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:24.880] hear it.
[01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:31.000] It seems this little town, the courts only open two days a week, and that's on Wednesday
[01:06:31.000 --> 01:06:32.000] and Thursday.
[01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:37.720] And I got my citation on the last Thursday, which I was done with.
[01:06:37.720 --> 01:06:39.840] What did the citation say?
[01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:40.840] Pardon me?
[01:06:40.840 --> 01:06:45.320] Did the citation order you to appear on a given day or time?
[01:06:45.320 --> 01:06:46.320] Oh, no.
[01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:51.080] It was one of those ten days, you know, one of the four ten days.
[01:06:51.080 --> 01:06:52.080] No.
[01:06:52.080 --> 01:06:53.080] Okay.
[01:06:53.080 --> 01:06:54.080] Okay.
[01:06:54.080 --> 01:06:57.600] So, didn't you go down there the next day and the court was closed?
[01:06:57.600 --> 01:06:58.600] No.
[01:06:58.600 --> 01:06:59.600] Oh.
[01:06:59.600 --> 01:07:00.600] Oh, well.
[01:07:00.600 --> 01:07:01.600] It was just a thought.
[01:07:01.600 --> 01:07:02.600] I thought about it, but actually, no, I didn't.
[01:07:02.600 --> 01:07:03.600] You know, actually, I've gotten until Sunday.
[01:07:03.600 --> 01:07:04.600] I could go down there Sunday.
[01:07:04.600 --> 01:07:05.600] Sunday's the end of the month.
[01:07:05.600 --> 01:07:06.600] I could go down there Sunday.
[01:07:06.600 --> 01:07:07.600] Sunday's the end of the month.
[01:07:07.600 --> 01:07:08.600] Sunday's the end of the month.
[01:07:08.600 --> 01:07:09.600] Sunday's the end of the month.
[01:07:09.600 --> 01:07:16.600] Actually, no, I didn't, you know, actually, I've gotten until Sunday, I could go down there
[01:07:16.600 --> 01:07:17.600] Sunday.
[01:07:17.600 --> 01:07:18.600] Sunday's the end of the ten days.
[01:07:18.600 --> 01:07:19.600] Actually, you have until Monday.
[01:07:19.600 --> 01:07:20.600] Oh, do I?
[01:07:20.600 --> 01:07:21.600] Until Monday?
[01:07:21.600 --> 01:07:22.600] Yeah.
[01:07:22.600 --> 01:07:23.600] The Monday after.
[01:07:23.600 --> 01:07:30.240] But, unfortunately, I actually only had three days in reality to appear because they're
[01:07:30.240 --> 01:07:31.240] open on Wednesday and Thursday.
[01:07:31.240 --> 01:07:38.720] I had the Thursday, I got the ticket, and then I could have appeared yesterday or today.
[01:07:38.720 --> 01:07:39.720] Okay.
[01:07:39.720 --> 01:07:43.400] There are a lot of other things you can do with a ticket.
[01:07:43.400 --> 01:07:52.240] A speeding ticket, actually, Eddie from Texas reminded me of something I had known.
[01:07:52.240 --> 01:07:59.480] In the transportation code, the signs on the highway only apply to commercial drivers.
[01:07:59.480 --> 01:08:01.480] It's very clear in that.
[01:08:01.480 --> 01:08:02.480] You're right.
[01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:05.480] But that's not the good one.
[01:08:05.480 --> 01:08:06.480] Okay.
[01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:19.360] The good one is 543.006, 543.005 transportation code says that the officer can't, after he
[01:08:19.360 --> 01:08:27.960] makes an arrest, can release the accused if they sign the citation and agree to appear.
[01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:36.960] 006 says the citation must state a date to appear at least ten days after the date of
[01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:37.960] arrest.
[01:08:37.960 --> 01:08:45.240] 006B says the citation shall state a date to appear before a magistrate.
[01:08:45.240 --> 01:08:50.120] So I go down there, and I want to see the magistrate, and generally the judge is not
[01:08:50.120 --> 01:08:51.120] there.
[01:08:51.120 --> 01:08:52.120] That's what that...
[01:08:52.120 --> 01:08:53.120] Well, you know, you're talking about that.
[01:08:53.120 --> 01:09:00.360] I did call the court on Wednesday because they were open, and I was kind of trying to
[01:09:00.360 --> 01:09:04.000] fill them out for when the magistrate would be there, if the magistrate was actually there
[01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:08.360] every day, if they were open or not, because I didn't want to show up when the magistrate
[01:09:08.360 --> 01:09:09.360] was there.
[01:09:09.360 --> 01:09:11.920] Oh, you want to show up when the magistrate's there?
[01:09:11.920 --> 01:09:12.920] Oh, I do.
[01:09:12.920 --> 01:09:13.920] Okay.
[01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:16.960] Oh, yeah, because he's not going to realize he's a magistrate.
[01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:17.960] Okay.
[01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:25.360] Well, then I messed up on that because, as it turns out, the citation says, you're hereby
[01:09:25.360 --> 01:09:30.600] notified to appear before, and it has down there a blank for the judge, but it has a
[01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:37.600] stamp that says, Court Clerk, Municipal Court, and on for ten days.
[01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:38.600] Okay.
[01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:45.720] When I called, I found out that the gal who's there, she's the judge and, of course, magistrate
[01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:46.720] and court clerk.
[01:09:46.720 --> 01:09:47.720] Okay.
[01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:48.720] She's wrapped up in the war.
[01:09:48.720 --> 01:09:49.720] Yeah.
[01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:50.720] They all are.
[01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:51.720] All judges are magistrates.
[01:09:51.720 --> 01:09:52.720] Yeah.
[01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:53.720] Right.
[01:09:53.720 --> 01:09:54.720] But she's not the court clerk.
[01:09:54.720 --> 01:09:55.720] She's a court clerk also.
[01:09:55.720 --> 01:09:56.720] No, she's not.
[01:09:56.720 --> 01:09:57.720] Huh?
[01:09:57.720 --> 01:09:58.720] No, she isn't.
[01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:01.720] Well, she is in Santa Ana.
[01:10:01.720 --> 01:10:05.440] Well, that's interesting.
[01:10:05.440 --> 01:10:07.720] I don't think she can be the court clerk.
[01:10:07.720 --> 01:10:13.720] Well, that kind of struck me as odd, too, because as she specifically said, I said,
[01:10:13.720 --> 01:10:21.720] well, are you the court clerk, and she said, well, I'm the municipal judge, and the court
[01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:26.720] clerk said, they get both for the price of one.
[01:10:26.720 --> 01:10:27.720] Oh.
[01:10:27.720 --> 01:10:28.720] That was her statement.
[01:10:28.720 --> 01:10:35.560] They might be able to do that as long as she doesn't hold two positions of emolument,
[01:10:35.560 --> 01:10:41.040] but the thing is, is you appear before her in her capacity as a magistrate in demand
[01:10:41.040 --> 01:10:47.760] and examining trial, and she's going to say, a what?
[01:10:47.760 --> 01:10:49.960] She's not going to have a clue.
[01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:51.240] Yeah.
[01:10:51.240 --> 01:10:53.960] That's what you're required to do.
[01:10:53.960 --> 01:10:55.720] That's what you agree to do.
[01:10:55.720 --> 01:11:01.920] See, 1406 commands the arresting officer to take you directly to the nearest magistrate.
[01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:08.240] Well, if he doesn't take you to the magistrate, in this particular case, he's authorized to
[01:11:08.240 --> 01:11:14.320] allow you to sign that citation swearing that you will take yourself to the nearest magistrate.
[01:11:14.320 --> 01:11:17.400] Don't say anything about a judge.
[01:11:17.400 --> 01:11:23.120] The only thing a magistrate can do, the only two things a magistrate can do, they can marry
[01:11:23.120 --> 01:11:29.560] some people, and if you don't take your fiancee with you, the only thing the judge can do
[01:11:29.560 --> 01:11:37.000] as a magistrate is hold an examining trial, period.
[01:11:37.000 --> 01:11:41.480] In Austin here, I went to the court, I want to see the magistrate, I got to the magistrate,
[01:11:41.480 --> 01:11:43.280] I want to have an examining trial.
[01:11:43.280 --> 01:11:46.560] Well, I can't do that, of course you can do that.
[01:11:46.560 --> 01:11:47.560] You're the magistrate.
[01:11:47.560 --> 01:11:55.520] Here, why he had to take these criminal complaints against the officer, because in 543-006 I
[01:11:55.520 --> 01:12:06.960] was talking about, 008 says, if an officer violates a provision of 5005-007, he's guilty
[01:12:06.960 --> 01:12:10.240] of misconduct and subject to removal from office.
[01:12:10.240 --> 01:12:14.720] Right, so I can file a criminal complaint against the officer.
[01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:15.720] Exactly.
[01:12:15.720 --> 01:12:21.200] And I guess, maybe that's all I've got left since I did, because I was trying to buy time
[01:12:21.200 --> 01:12:26.800] and I didn't realize that I wanted to be the magistrate, or I would have gone on down there.
[01:12:26.800 --> 01:12:31.760] I was thinking I didn't want to show up in the magistrate's office, so I sent their little
[01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:35.560] deal off and marked it for a jury trial.
[01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:37.000] Where do you live at?
[01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:38.000] What county?
[01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:40.000] I live in Parker County.
[01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:45.880] Oh, okay, it must be up there near where I'm from.
[01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:51.640] What you need to do is petition for change of venue.
[01:12:51.640 --> 01:12:59.920] That'll make it nuts, because you have a right to be tried in the county that you live in.
[01:12:59.920 --> 01:13:04.720] And that goes to constitutional right.
[01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:06.240] Nobody does that part.
[01:13:06.240 --> 01:13:07.240] That's fun to do.
[01:13:07.240 --> 01:13:10.760] But there's a lot more study I need to do on tickets.
[01:13:10.760 --> 01:13:16.400] That's about, you know, the only other thing I have on tickets is the same thing I have
[01:13:16.400 --> 01:13:26.360] in regular court, like ask for a financial statement from the judge, contract with the
[01:13:26.360 --> 01:13:27.360] state.
[01:13:27.360 --> 01:13:33.280] How about oath of office, being able to get the jurisdiction away from the court?
[01:13:33.280 --> 01:13:39.720] Yeah, oath of office is always nice because it establishes contract.
[01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:43.720] And let's see, I don't have to think about it, but there's a lot of things you can annoy
[01:13:43.720 --> 01:13:47.240] them with from the discovery side.
[01:13:47.240 --> 01:13:52.440] They're going to say you don't have a right to discovery in class C misdemeanor, but this
[01:13:52.440 --> 01:13:54.520] doesn't exactly go to discovery.
[01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:57.040] It goes to federal crop insurance.
[01:13:57.040 --> 01:14:03.520] It goes to your duty to ensure that she actually is the judge she says she is.
[01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:08.040] And you get to challenge the police officer to make sure he's actually a police officer
[01:14:08.040 --> 01:14:10.240] and the prosecutor.
[01:14:10.240 --> 01:14:16.160] There's some question about whether a prosecutor can prosecute a crime or not.
[01:14:16.160 --> 01:14:23.400] Ed was, Eddie was bringing that up that it appears that municipal prosecutors can only
[01:14:23.400 --> 01:14:32.360] prosecute violations of municipal ordinance and not state law, that the elected county
[01:14:32.360 --> 01:14:35.720] attorney is supposed to do that.
[01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:41.680] But it is, frankly, it's an issue I haven't had time to brief out, so.
[01:14:41.680 --> 01:14:50.680] What happens, in my mind, I'm kind of questioning, what happens if you do file that misdemeanor
[01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:56.800] charge as what it is, I think, against the officer?
[01:14:56.800 --> 01:15:02.160] That makes him a, what do you call it, a trespasser, an ab initio.
[01:15:02.160 --> 01:15:03.160] Ab initio, right.
[01:15:03.160 --> 01:15:10.040] So does that in effect then negate his ability to even write the citation?
[01:15:10.040 --> 01:15:17.240] That makes him not a credible person for the purpose of swearing to a criminal accusation.
[01:15:17.240 --> 01:15:20.880] I have a motion to that effect.
[01:15:20.880 --> 01:15:23.800] It needs some work on it, but it's what.
[01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:30.280] And he's the only one that can swear to it since he's the only one there that.
[01:15:30.280 --> 01:15:35.280] Well then you go after her when she doesn't act appropriately for violating a ministerial
[01:15:35.280 --> 01:15:38.400] duty.
[01:15:38.400 --> 01:15:42.160] Then you can sue her personally.
[01:15:42.160 --> 01:15:49.000] Then you can sue the city because the officer used a motor vehicle in the process of the
[01:15:49.000 --> 01:15:55.440] commission of the crime, and that bypasses the city's sovereign immunity.
[01:15:55.440 --> 01:16:02.000] Okay, we've got a caller stacked up, we really need to move along.
[01:16:02.000 --> 01:16:03.000] Okay.
[01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:04.000] Thank you, Randy, I appreciate it.
[01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:05.560] All right, thank you, Jim.
[01:16:05.560 --> 01:16:08.880] Okay, yeah, we're about to hit a break here.
[01:16:08.880 --> 01:16:11.080] We've got Aaron from Texas, Greg from Alabama.
[01:16:11.080 --> 01:16:14.200] I think I know who that may be.
[01:16:14.200 --> 01:16:17.640] And we also have Jerry from Oregon.
[01:16:17.640 --> 01:16:24.960] So callers, if you'd like to call in 512-646-1984, we'll take Aaron from Texas as soon as we
[01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:26.840] get back on the other side.
[01:16:26.840 --> 01:16:32.720] This is the rule of law, ruleoflawradio.com.
[01:16:32.720 --> 01:16:33.720] Please call in.
[01:16:33.720 --> 01:16:59.960] We'll be right back.
[01:16:59.960 --> 01:17:25.000] Again, we'll begin in three minutes.
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[01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:34.880] Ain't gonna fool me with that same old trick again. I was blindsided but now I can see your plans.
[01:18:34.880 --> 01:18:44.880] You put the fear in my pocket, took the money from my hands. Ain't gonna fool me with that same old trick again.
[01:18:44.880 --> 01:19:02.880] Ain't gonna fool me with that same old trick again.
[01:19:02.880 --> 01:19:12.880] Alright, we are back. The Rule of Law, Randy Kelton and Deborah Stevens here on ruleoflawradio.com.
[01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:18.880] Some Three Shoes Posse music for you. Okay, we are going now to Aaron in Texas. Aaron, number two.
[01:19:18.880 --> 01:19:23.880] Then we'll go to Greg in Alabama. I think I know who that is. And also Jerry from Oregon.
[01:19:23.880 --> 01:19:26.880] Go ahead, Aaron. What's on your mind tonight?
[01:19:26.880 --> 01:19:33.880] Oh, hey, Deborah. I just wanted to, I just wondered if you ever heard anything about the raw milk issue
[01:19:33.880 --> 01:19:40.880] that was supposed to be, I guess they're trying to outlaw raw milk at all the farmers' markets
[01:19:40.880 --> 01:19:44.880] where you have to go all the way to the farm in order to get it.
[01:19:44.880 --> 01:19:47.880] That's done because of the FDA and the state.
[01:19:47.880 --> 01:19:54.880] Well, from my understanding of what happened here in Austin, basically they got some threat notes.
[01:19:54.880 --> 01:20:05.880] One of the farmers did or several of the farmers did and then apparently they, the health department came and harassed them.
[01:20:05.880 --> 01:20:11.880] Now it's totally legal to sell raw milk for pets, livestock and such.
[01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:21.880] And so what we wanted was we were trying to get a contract for them to be able to use where people would just have to sign
[01:20:21.880 --> 01:20:25.880] that they are purchasing the raw milk to feed to their pets.
[01:20:25.880 --> 01:20:31.880] But apparently, and that would be totally legal and there's nothing wrong with it at all,
[01:20:31.880 --> 01:20:37.880] but apparently the farmers are just scared and they just don't want to bust the system.
[01:20:37.880 --> 01:20:39.880] They just don't want to deal with it.
[01:20:39.880 --> 01:20:43.880] So it's not a matter of them making it illegal.
[01:20:43.880 --> 01:20:47.880] I mean, it's just a coercive technique.
[01:20:47.880 --> 01:20:53.880] Okay. That's sad to hear, though, because we're drinking raw milk and stuff like that.
[01:20:53.880 --> 01:20:59.880] And the other issue that I had was just as the second issue that I wanted to bring up,
[01:20:59.880 --> 01:21:05.880] and I don't know if you've heard of L.B. Bork with PackinLaw.org,
[01:21:05.880 --> 01:21:16.880] and he brings up the 14th Amendment issue and what actually makes you a U.S. citizen in here and everything.
[01:21:16.880 --> 01:21:25.880] And he goes and explains, he goes over and explains the 14th Amendment in great detail.
[01:21:25.880 --> 01:21:31.880] As far as even taking out the extroverbiage, that does not need to be there.
[01:21:31.880 --> 01:21:39.880] And I just wanted to say, Section 2 of the 14th Amendment, and this is how the 14th Amendment works,
[01:21:39.880 --> 01:21:45.880] and Section 2 of the 14th Amendment induces a voting American to deceitfully throw off
[01:21:45.880 --> 01:21:49.880] the primary political allegiance to his rightful state government.
[01:21:49.880 --> 01:21:52.880] This causes political allegiance to his government.
[01:21:52.880 --> 01:21:54.880] This is addition and hence treason.
[01:21:54.880 --> 01:21:58.880] His allegiance is then given to the de facto governmental system
[01:21:58.880 --> 01:22:03.880] over his state or country's lawful government.
[01:22:03.880 --> 01:22:10.880] He is then politically bound to the federal government, and he is now a resident,
[01:22:10.880 --> 01:22:16.880] a man classified as a citizen of the state and is no longer a national of his country,
[01:22:16.880 --> 01:22:19.880] but a national of the United States.
[01:22:19.880 --> 01:22:21.880] And there's more to it.
[01:22:21.880 --> 01:22:24.880] What are you reading?
[01:22:24.880 --> 01:22:26.880] What are you reading?
[01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:27.880] I am reading.
[01:22:27.880 --> 01:22:30.880] He's going over the 14th Amendment.
[01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:33.880] Oh, you're not reading the 14th Amendment.
[01:22:33.880 --> 01:22:35.880] You're reading something else.
[01:22:35.880 --> 01:22:38.880] I'm not actually reading the 14th Amendment.
[01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:43.880] He's actually explaining what Section 2 of the 14th Amendment means.
[01:22:43.880 --> 01:22:45.880] Well, let me read it to you.
[01:22:45.880 --> 01:22:51.880] Representatives shall be appointed among the several states according to their representative numbers,
[01:22:51.880 --> 01:22:56.880] counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians, not taxed.
[01:22:56.880 --> 01:23:02.880] But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for president
[01:23:02.880 --> 01:23:05.880] and vice president of the United States, representative of Congress,
[01:23:05.880 --> 01:23:10.880] the executive and judicial officers of the state or members of the legislature thereof
[01:23:10.880 --> 01:23:16.880] shall abide to any of the male inhabitants of such state being 21 years of age
[01:23:16.880 --> 01:23:25.880] and citizens of the United States were in any way abridged except for participation in rebellion or other crime.
[01:23:25.880 --> 01:23:31.880] The basis of representation therein shall be reduced to the proportion which the number of such male citizens
[01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:37.880] shall bear to the whole number of male citizens 21 years of age in such state.
[01:23:37.880 --> 01:23:41.880] What was he talking about?
[01:23:41.880 --> 01:23:51.880] The way they wrote the 14th Amendment, they wrote it on a, let's say, pretty...
[01:23:51.880 --> 01:23:54.880] Okay, look, we just lost Aaron.
[01:23:54.880 --> 01:24:01.880] His phone line has been cutting in and out and he just dropped off the board.
[01:24:01.880 --> 01:24:07.880] Aaron, maybe you can call back at another time so we can discuss this 14th Amendment issue further.
[01:24:07.880 --> 01:24:10.880] Randy, do you have any other comments before we move on to the next caller?
[01:24:10.880 --> 01:24:13.880] No, I was trying to figure that one out.
[01:24:13.880 --> 01:24:17.880] It appears that what I'm reading in the 14th Amendment,
[01:24:17.880 --> 01:24:26.880] that Section 2 just goes to who can vote for elected officials.
[01:24:26.880 --> 01:24:30.880] And he was talking about how this goes to citizenship.
[01:24:30.880 --> 01:24:35.880] This is kind of a problem I have sometimes with people who address these issues.
[01:24:35.880 --> 01:24:38.880] I don't know who he is or what his backing is,
[01:24:38.880 --> 01:24:45.880] but I would sure want to see the law behind it and not just hear his opinion about what it means.
[01:24:45.880 --> 01:24:47.880] Okay.
[01:24:47.880 --> 01:24:48.880] All right, let's move on.
[01:24:48.880 --> 01:24:51.880] We've got Greg from Alabama.
[01:24:51.880 --> 01:24:53.880] Greg, you there?
[01:24:53.880 --> 01:24:54.880] Yeah.
[01:24:54.880 --> 01:24:56.880] Hey, what's on your mind tonight?
[01:24:56.880 --> 01:24:58.880] I have a couple of comments.
[01:24:58.880 --> 01:25:03.880] And would this be Greg, our host for Agenda 21 Talk?
[01:25:03.880 --> 01:25:05.880] Hillbilly Greg?
[01:25:05.880 --> 01:25:06.880] Yeah, Hillbilly Greg.
[01:25:06.880 --> 01:25:09.880] You got it.
[01:25:09.880 --> 01:25:13.880] Hey, first of all, comment about the show that you guys did,
[01:25:13.880 --> 01:25:16.880] the coverage of that meeting the other night.
[01:25:16.880 --> 01:25:18.880] What town was that in?
[01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:20.880] That was here in Austin.
[01:25:20.880 --> 01:25:21.880] Yeah, okay.
[01:25:21.880 --> 01:25:22.880] That was fantastic.
[01:25:22.880 --> 01:25:27.880] I know I told you through Skype, Debra, but I just wanted to tell you on air.
[01:25:27.880 --> 01:25:29.880] I mean, that was fantastic.
[01:25:29.880 --> 01:25:31.880] Oh, thank you.
[01:25:31.880 --> 01:25:38.880] The next issue, the caller that called in in reference to probable cause, Randy,
[01:25:38.880 --> 01:25:43.880] I've got a special Lexus CD that I've had for some time.
[01:25:43.880 --> 01:25:46.880] I need to get you a copy of this, or you may even have it.
[01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:51.880] But anyway, it deals with all these traffic issues in Supreme Court.
[01:25:51.880 --> 01:25:55.880] And apparently there's a couple of case sightings,
[01:25:55.880 --> 01:26:01.880] one of them being on the checkpoint-type stops.
[01:26:01.880 --> 01:26:07.880] The Supreme Court apparently likes the checkpoints for alcohol,
[01:26:07.880 --> 01:26:09.880] but not for any other reason.
[01:26:09.880 --> 01:26:11.880] And there's two case sightings.
[01:26:11.880 --> 01:26:14.880] One in particular, if they have a checkpoint just checking for drugs,
[01:26:14.880 --> 01:26:18.880] that is a violation of the Fourth Amendment, they say.
[01:26:18.880 --> 01:26:23.880] And they use the city of Indianapolis versus Edmond for that.
[01:26:23.880 --> 01:26:30.880] But for checkpoints for alcohol, the Supreme Court actually supports that,
[01:26:30.880 --> 01:26:34.880] and they use the Michigan Department of State Police versus SIPs.
[01:26:34.880 --> 01:26:37.880] I don't know if you had any further comment on that,
[01:26:37.880 --> 01:26:43.880] but this checkpoint business happens to be one of those things I've researched a good bit,
[01:26:43.880 --> 01:26:49.880] and I have a problem with them at some point.
[01:26:49.880 --> 01:26:53.880] Yes, I've had a problem with the checkpoints,
[01:26:53.880 --> 01:26:57.880] but in all honesty, when I think about it,
[01:26:57.880 --> 01:27:03.880] when I step out from my side of the badge and step over on their side of the badge,
[01:27:03.880 --> 01:27:14.880] I ask myself, how do I deal with this problem of people getting out on the highways in 3,000 pounds of iron
[01:27:14.880 --> 01:27:25.880] and passing other people in 3,000 pounds of iron a foot away with a closure rate of 120 miles an hour?
[01:27:25.880 --> 01:27:28.880] Well, taking away everyone's rights is certainly not the answer.
[01:27:28.880 --> 01:27:30.880] Checkpoints are certainly not the answer.
[01:27:30.880 --> 01:27:34.880] Well, I ask myself, how do I deal with this?
[01:27:34.880 --> 01:27:39.880] Well, we've got to figure out a creative way of dealing with it without taking away everyone's rights.
[01:27:39.880 --> 01:27:41.880] That's just all there is to it.
[01:27:41.880 --> 01:27:47.880] And in general, you have to wait until someone is harmed,
[01:27:47.880 --> 01:27:52.880] and we have plenty strict enough laws that we don't need all this.
[01:27:52.880 --> 01:27:54.880] Sorry.
[01:27:54.880 --> 01:27:58.880] I mean, life is dangerous.
[01:27:58.880 --> 01:28:05.880] Yeah, I'm actually, a couple of years ago, I was actually on Randy's side on that,
[01:28:05.880 --> 01:28:10.880] and I understand what you're saying, but I've grown to be on Deborah's side on that.
[01:28:10.880 --> 01:28:13.880] Actually, I'm not on his side.
[01:28:13.880 --> 01:28:17.880] I don't like the intrusiveness,
[01:28:17.880 --> 01:28:25.880] but I also don't like all the people getting killed because someone's being careless or incautious.
[01:28:25.880 --> 01:28:27.880] Well, checkpoints aren't going to solve that problem.
[01:28:27.880 --> 01:28:30.880] Neither are forced blood withdrawals.
[01:28:30.880 --> 01:28:32.880] That's just not going to solve the problem.
[01:28:32.880 --> 01:28:38.880] I don't see the forced blood withdrawals as having anything to do with DUI convictions.
[01:28:38.880 --> 01:28:44.880] However, I did like her idea about the breath, the little gadget you put on the car,
[01:28:44.880 --> 01:28:48.880] and not because they have to be sober to drive the car,
[01:28:48.880 --> 01:28:57.880] but because from my psychology side, that is a great pattern interruption and reinforcement.
[01:28:57.880 --> 01:28:58.880] Oh, absolutely.
[01:28:58.880 --> 01:29:02.880] You know, I'd love for them to mandate that.
[01:29:02.880 --> 01:29:07.880] Me and Don Terry, we'd get on the bench really quick and create a device and get rich.
[01:29:07.880 --> 01:29:16.880] Well, they've got a device to do that, and that's not unreasonable.
[01:29:16.880 --> 01:29:18.880] I've heard about that.
[01:29:18.880 --> 01:29:22.880] I wonder how robust that thing actually is.
[01:29:22.880 --> 01:29:27.880] Well, what's unreasonable about it is what about people that have classic cars?
[01:29:27.880 --> 01:29:33.880] Maybe they don't want to retrofit, or however you want to call it,
[01:29:33.880 --> 01:29:41.880] their 1930s or 1940s or their 57 Chevy with all this stupidness of electronics.
[01:29:41.880 --> 01:29:44.880] You don't physically damage the car in any way.
[01:29:44.880 --> 01:29:46.880] Well, maybe they don't want to modify it at all.
[01:29:46.880 --> 01:29:49.880] Well, maybe they shouldn't go out and kill our neighbors.
[01:29:49.880 --> 01:29:50.880] Well, maybe they're not.
[01:29:50.880 --> 01:29:51.880] Maybe they're not driving drunk.
[01:29:51.880 --> 01:29:53.880] They shouldn't enforce that on everyone.
[01:29:53.880 --> 01:29:54.880] We'll be right back.
[01:29:54.880 --> 01:29:57.880] We'll be right back.
[01:29:57.880 --> 01:30:02.880] Gold prices are at historic highs, and with the recent pullback, this is a great time to buy.
[01:30:02.880 --> 01:30:06.880] With the value of the dollar, risks of inflation, geopolitical uncertainties,
[01:30:06.880 --> 01:30:11.880] and instability in world financial systems, I see gold going up much higher.
[01:30:11.880 --> 01:30:14.880] Hi, I'm Tim Fry at Roberts & Roberts Brokerage.
[01:30:14.880 --> 01:30:18.880] Everybody should have some of their assets in investment-grade precious metals.
[01:30:18.880 --> 01:30:22.880] At Roberts & Roberts Brokerage, you can buy gold, silver, and platinum with confidence
[01:30:22.880 --> 01:30:27.880] from a brokerage that's specialized in the precious metals market since 1977.
[01:30:27.880 --> 01:30:30.880] If you are new to precious metals, we will happily provide you with the information
[01:30:30.880 --> 01:30:35.880] you need to make an informed decision whether or not you choose to purchase from us.
[01:30:35.880 --> 01:30:39.880] Also, Roberts & Roberts Brokerage values your privacy and will always advise you
[01:30:39.880 --> 01:30:42.880] in the event that we would be required to report any transaction.
[01:30:42.880 --> 01:30:47.880] If you have gold, silver, or platinum you'd like to sell, we can convert it for immediate payment.
[01:30:47.880 --> 01:30:51.880] Call us at 800-874-9760.
[01:30:51.880 --> 01:30:58.880] We're Roberts & Roberts Brokerage, 800-874-9760.
[01:30:58.880 --> 01:31:00.880] Yeah, who you want to chip?
[01:31:00.880 --> 01:31:01.880] Who you take me for?
[01:31:01.880 --> 01:31:02.880] Free Tony?
[01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:03.880] Who you want to chip?
[01:31:03.880 --> 01:31:04.880] I'm not free Tony.
[01:31:04.880 --> 01:31:05.880] You can't chip me.
[01:31:05.880 --> 01:31:07.880] All right.
[01:31:07.880 --> 01:31:09.880] Don't let them chip you in the morning.
[01:31:09.880 --> 01:31:10.880] Chip you in the evening.
[01:31:10.880 --> 01:31:12.880] Put a chip in your body.
[01:31:12.880 --> 01:31:14.880] And then when you go computer reading,
[01:31:14.880 --> 01:31:16.880] you can't hide me from nobody.
[01:31:16.880 --> 01:31:19.880] When I say chip in your mom, chip in your daddy.
[01:31:19.880 --> 01:31:22.880] Chip in your grandpa and your grandma.
[01:31:22.880 --> 01:31:24.880] Chip in me, chip in your baby.
[01:31:24.880 --> 01:31:26.880] Chip in your family, whole family.
[01:31:26.880 --> 01:31:28.880] Chip in your dad.
[01:31:28.880 --> 01:31:29.880] Okay, rule of law.
[01:31:29.880 --> 01:31:31.880] Rainy Kelton and Deborah Stevens.
[01:31:31.880 --> 01:31:36.880] We're here with Greg Chapman, host from Agenda 21 Talk.
[01:31:36.880 --> 01:31:37.880] Okay, go ahead, Greg.
[01:31:37.880 --> 01:31:40.880] You said that you had to run, so go ahead.
[01:31:40.880 --> 01:31:43.880] Yeah, there was actually something that I wanted to enter in.
[01:31:43.880 --> 01:31:48.880] You know, I listened to that and I listened to the arguments from both sides.
[01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:55.880] But there was one thing that wasn't introduced that I was wondering if one day I would actually be able to use it.
[01:31:55.880 --> 01:31:56.880] And that is this.
[01:31:56.880 --> 01:32:01.880] Now, the other night we had a doctor from Uchee Pines on our show.
[01:32:01.880 --> 01:32:08.880] I've had some questions from people about Uchee Pines actually for the last couple of years.
[01:32:08.880 --> 01:32:12.880] It's a small clinic in South Alabama.
[01:32:12.880 --> 01:32:19.880] Trying to make a long story short, they actually have real data and proof of,
[01:32:19.880 --> 01:32:29.880] and I don't know how many patients, but from studies where people's bodies can actually produce an alcohol level that will be higher,
[01:32:29.880 --> 01:32:32.880] will actually register higher than the legal limit.
[01:32:32.880 --> 01:32:34.880] They have proof of that.
[01:32:34.880 --> 01:32:38.880] Under what circumstances?
[01:32:38.880 --> 01:32:48.880] Now, I can't tell you the circumstances other than the fact that I went to a seminar where Dr. Agatha Thrash was holding the seminar.
[01:32:48.880 --> 01:32:55.880] She's world-renowned, written tons and tons of books on natural healing and so on and so forth.
[01:32:55.880 --> 01:33:03.880] And Uchee Pines, they spent three decades on gathering data for anything health-related.
[01:33:03.880 --> 01:33:07.880] And all I can tell you is in one of her seminars she talked about that,
[01:33:07.880 --> 01:33:14.880] because I had asked the question after she brought it up is couldn't you use that in a case to defend someone
[01:33:14.880 --> 01:33:20.880] because the fact is that their machine isn't necessarily perfect then
[01:33:20.880 --> 01:33:30.880] because there are some people who will naturally send that thing over, the legal limit, just from what's in their breath.
[01:33:30.880 --> 01:33:35.880] And so I didn't get into what circumstance caused that.
[01:33:35.880 --> 01:33:44.880] I only know that they've got the study and I hadn't ever sent for it just to look at it.
[01:33:44.880 --> 01:33:47.880] I just kind of kept it in the back of my mind.
[01:33:47.880 --> 01:33:49.880] But that data is actually there.
[01:33:49.880 --> 01:33:52.880] How do you spell this doctor's name?
[01:33:52.880 --> 01:33:59.880] Her name is Agatha Thrash, T-H-R-A-S-H, Agatha.
[01:33:59.880 --> 01:34:03.880] If you look her up on the Internet, I'm sure you're going to find tons of information.
[01:34:03.880 --> 01:34:13.880] She has been on The Today Show, all kinds of morning shows like that over the last couple of decades.
[01:34:13.880 --> 01:34:17.880] And it's UCHE Pines, U-C-H-E Pines.
[01:34:17.880 --> 01:34:20.880] It was named after the UCHE Indians.
[01:34:20.880 --> 01:34:23.880] And it's uchepines.org.
[01:34:23.880 --> 01:34:30.880] And it's a nonprofit clinic down there and they've been around for about three decades.
[01:34:30.880 --> 01:34:31.880] Interesting.
[01:34:31.880 --> 01:34:33.880] That's great.
[01:34:33.880 --> 01:34:35.880] Yeah.
[01:34:35.880 --> 01:34:43.880] At least it's enough that if somebody does go over the limit and it's really safe for them to drive,
[01:34:43.880 --> 01:34:49.880] it's very possible that this could be entered in to make it questionable
[01:34:49.880 --> 01:34:57.880] about whether the machine really justifiably considered them as being unable to drive that machine or not.
[01:34:57.880 --> 01:34:59.880] I would sure like to see that study.
[01:34:59.880 --> 01:35:02.880] That would be an interesting cog to throw in their works.
[01:35:02.880 --> 01:35:03.880] Really?
[01:35:03.880 --> 01:35:05.880] Well, I'll tell you what I'll do.
[01:35:05.880 --> 01:35:06.880] I'll take that under my hat.
[01:35:06.880 --> 01:35:08.880] I'll get that for you.
[01:35:08.880 --> 01:35:09.880] All right.
[01:35:09.880 --> 01:35:10.880] Excellent.
[01:35:10.880 --> 01:35:11.880] Thank you, Greg.
[01:35:11.880 --> 01:35:12.880] You bet.
[01:35:12.880 --> 01:35:13.880] Okay.
[01:35:13.880 --> 01:35:16.880] We're going to move on now to Jerry from Oregon.
[01:35:16.880 --> 01:35:17.880] That was Greg Chapman.
[01:35:17.880 --> 01:35:20.880] He's one of the hosts of Agenda 21 Talk.
[01:35:20.880 --> 01:35:26.880] Their show airs Fridays 6 to 8 p.m. Central Time and Tuesdays 8 to 10 p.m. Central Time.
[01:35:26.880 --> 01:35:30.880] All right, we're going to move on now to Jerry in Oregon.
[01:35:30.880 --> 01:35:31.880] Hey, Jerry, thanks for calling in.
[01:35:31.880 --> 01:35:33.880] What's on your mind tonight?
[01:35:33.880 --> 01:35:34.880] Hey, you too.
[01:35:34.880 --> 01:35:38.880] Thank you for being here.
[01:35:38.880 --> 01:35:45.880] I have actually a couple questions and comments, I guess.
[01:35:45.880 --> 01:35:58.880] Randy, do you think that courts function in a dual jurisdiction being both under criminal and UCC at the same time?
[01:35:58.880 --> 01:36:00.880] No.
[01:36:00.880 --> 01:36:01.880] You don't think so?
[01:36:01.880 --> 01:36:12.880] Because it sure sounds like they operate in both, and your acceptance or refusal to accept their offer,
[01:36:12.880 --> 01:36:21.880] it's kind of, I don't know how to really define and explain it, but it's like they operate in both modes at the same time.
[01:36:21.880 --> 01:36:27.880] And if one doesn't work, then it defaults to UCC.
[01:36:27.880 --> 01:36:36.880] UCC goes to the commerce in goods, and it doesn't go to services.
[01:36:36.880 --> 01:36:45.880] And everybody's trying to bring the UCC into the court, and the Code of Criminal Procedure rules the civil procedure.
[01:36:45.880 --> 01:36:52.880] They rule, and you can't just jump down to the UCC.
[01:36:52.880 --> 01:37:00.880] But do you not think that they operate towards the defendant in that process?
[01:37:00.880 --> 01:37:06.880] Granted, you have the due process, which you point out very eloquently.
[01:37:06.880 --> 01:37:09.880] I mean, I think you do a really good job at that.
[01:37:09.880 --> 01:37:19.880] And I myself have taken your suggestion and went to the library and copied the criminal procedure codes for my state.
[01:37:19.880 --> 01:37:24.880] And I'm in the process of reading one time through, and it still makes no sense.
[01:37:24.880 --> 01:37:34.880] But I kind of get the impression that quite potentially that they operate in both modes at the same time
[01:37:34.880 --> 01:37:45.880] and default to UCC to get your ultimate acceptance to where they can misuse the power that they hold over you.
[01:37:45.880 --> 01:37:47.880] I don't know how to explain that very well.
[01:37:47.880 --> 01:37:49.880] That's the problem I've had.
[01:37:49.880 --> 01:37:57.880] I've had a lot of people make those assertions, but they can't seem to bring me anything I can use.
[01:37:57.880 --> 01:38:08.880] Now, I understand how the UCC may apply, and Joe Edwards was the best one of demonstrating that,
[01:38:08.880 --> 01:38:19.880] just in dealing back and forth with one another, where the policeman asks him, who are you?
[01:38:19.880 --> 01:38:25.880] And Joe Edwards said, well, who are you looking for?
[01:38:25.880 --> 01:38:28.880] The officer offered the contract.
[01:38:28.880 --> 01:38:37.880] He didn't go for the contract, but he didn't tell him that he accepted his question for value and give it back to him.
[01:38:37.880 --> 01:38:43.880] He just didn't enter into an interaction directly with him.
[01:38:43.880 --> 01:38:46.880] The officer made an offer to contract.
[01:38:46.880 --> 01:38:48.880] He made an offer back.
[01:38:48.880 --> 01:38:51.880] But this is just normal interaction.
[01:38:51.880 --> 01:38:57.880] And I guess UCC applies to that, but it doesn't go to any code.
[01:38:57.880 --> 01:39:01.880] It doesn't go to any duty on the part of either side.
[01:39:01.880 --> 01:39:10.880] And this nonsense of saying just because you walk in the courtroom, you give them jurisdiction, no, you don't.
[01:39:10.880 --> 01:39:15.880] A court gets jurisdiction statutorily.
[01:39:15.880 --> 01:39:22.880] It's very clear how they get jurisdiction, and if they have statutory jurisdiction, they have it.
[01:39:22.880 --> 01:39:29.880] I don't know how these guys are getting this stuff to say that just because you stand up
[01:39:29.880 --> 01:39:36.880] and speak to the court that all of a sudden everything changes, I can't find it.
[01:39:36.880 --> 01:39:38.880] Well, I don't think you would find it.
[01:39:38.880 --> 01:39:41.880] I think you would probably have to experience that.
[01:39:41.880 --> 01:39:46.880] If I can't find it in law, it doesn't exist.
[01:39:46.880 --> 01:39:51.880] You can't just make up stuff and say, well, this applies.
[01:39:51.880 --> 01:39:56.880] And these guys have been telling me this stuff, and I say, okay, show me the law.
[01:39:56.880 --> 01:40:00.880] And they're not forthcoming with it.
[01:40:00.880 --> 01:40:06.880] What about if you had a court transcript of some of the proceedings that they said that they were in?
[01:40:06.880 --> 01:40:11.880] I mean, certainly there would be a court transcript of the events that took place.
[01:40:11.880 --> 01:40:21.880] And after looking and reviewing the court transcript, I mean, if the story relates exactly as the transcript relates,
[01:40:21.880 --> 01:40:26.880] well, then don't you think there would be some merit to that?
[01:40:26.880 --> 01:40:36.880] Not unless there's law to back it up, because I can make up stories that sound really, really good,
[01:40:36.880 --> 01:40:39.880] that don't necessarily mean anything.
[01:40:39.880 --> 01:40:40.880] Here's my problem with that.
[01:40:40.880 --> 01:40:42.880] I was called to New York to help this guy.
[01:40:42.880 --> 01:40:45.880] He's locked up with the feds.
[01:40:45.880 --> 01:40:54.880] He had bought a Mercedes with a bill of exchange, and the Mercedes dealers call the feds,
[01:40:54.880 --> 01:40:58.880] and the feds get the call, and they find out the guy's name is Mohammed.
[01:40:58.880 --> 01:41:00.880] Oh, goody.
[01:41:00.880 --> 01:41:05.880] A head U.S. attorney in Dallas told me when I was trying to get him to arrest some public officials
[01:41:05.880 --> 01:41:10.880] that he only has a budget to go after terrorists.
[01:41:10.880 --> 01:41:13.880] I said, well, Rick, how many terrorists have you found lately?
[01:41:13.880 --> 01:41:15.880] I haven't found any in Fort Worth, but we're looking.
[01:41:15.880 --> 01:41:16.880] We're looking.
[01:41:16.880 --> 01:41:19.880] So they get a call about somebody named Mohammed.
[01:41:19.880 --> 01:41:21.880] Oh, goody, they get to use their budget.
[01:41:21.880 --> 01:41:25.880] So they run out and jerk him up and throw him in a can.
[01:41:25.880 --> 01:41:29.880] They subpoena his banks where he bought two buildings with these for their records.
[01:41:29.880 --> 01:41:31.880] The bank asked him to suppress.
[01:41:31.880 --> 01:41:32.880] He said, heck no.
[01:41:32.880 --> 01:41:33.880] I did everything right.
[01:41:33.880 --> 01:41:34.880] Give him the records.
[01:41:34.880 --> 01:41:37.880] They gave the bank the records.
[01:41:37.880 --> 01:41:38.880] The feds looked at the records.
[01:41:38.880 --> 01:41:40.880] They let him out.
[01:41:40.880 --> 01:41:41.880] Here was the problem.
[01:41:41.880 --> 01:41:43.880] They called me there to help.
[01:41:43.880 --> 01:41:49.880] They give me a stack of folders four inches high telling them how to do this.
[01:41:49.880 --> 01:41:50.880] I read through them.
[01:41:50.880 --> 01:41:56.880] Not one piece of law in there anywhere.
[01:41:56.880 --> 01:41:58.880] He did everything right.
[01:41:58.880 --> 01:42:03.880] But when he got before the court, he had no way to protect himself.
[01:42:03.880 --> 01:42:12.880] Somebody wants me to go before the court and assert the commercial code before the court.
[01:42:12.880 --> 01:42:21.880] You've got to give me some law to get me there, not implication, not just assertion.
[01:42:21.880 --> 01:42:29.880] And one of the things I say about writing legal pleadings, you can't make a positive assertion to the court
[01:42:29.880 --> 01:42:33.880] except an assertion of material fact.
[01:42:33.880 --> 01:42:38.880] Any assertion concerning law, you have to make it in the language of the law.
[01:42:38.880 --> 01:42:40.880] And you have to show where you got it from.
[01:42:40.880 --> 01:42:43.880] If you read case law, you'll see they do just exactly that.
[01:42:43.880 --> 01:42:48.880] There'll be a paragraph that half a sentence and then a case sighting.
[01:42:48.880 --> 01:42:50.880] Another half a sentence, a case sighting.
[01:42:50.880 --> 01:42:52.880] Two sentences, case sighting.
[01:42:52.880 --> 01:42:55.880] They're not saying any of this.
[01:42:55.880 --> 01:42:57.880] They're quoting what the court said.
[01:42:57.880 --> 01:43:00.880] And that's the only thing the judge can pay attention to.
[01:43:00.880 --> 01:43:05.880] So I can't go in there with ideas and beliefs about the common law.
[01:43:05.880 --> 01:43:10.880] I've got to have chapter and verse to stick in front of him.
[01:43:10.880 --> 01:43:16.880] So you would say, so based on the information within jurisdictionary,
[01:43:16.880 --> 01:43:25.880] that would be the proper process and procedures to follow exactly as Dr. Gray has them outlined?
[01:43:25.880 --> 01:43:27.880] Precisely.
[01:43:27.880 --> 01:43:32.880] And the common law, I mean, the torrential code is going to have its place
[01:43:32.880 --> 01:43:36.880] just in how we talk to one another and how we get into contracts
[01:43:36.880 --> 01:43:39.880] and how we get out of contracts and into agreements and out.
[01:43:39.880 --> 01:43:43.880] But that's it.
[01:43:43.880 --> 01:43:47.880] Okay, listen, we're going to break.
[01:43:47.880 --> 01:43:48.880] We'll be right back.
[01:43:48.880 --> 01:43:52.880] We've also got Wendy from Tennessee and Gary from Texas.
[01:43:52.880 --> 01:43:59.880] The rule of law on ruleoflawradio.com.
[01:43:59.880 --> 01:44:02.880] Stock markets are taking hit after hit.
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[01:44:13.880 --> 01:44:16.880] As investors scramble for safety in the metals,
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[01:45:12.880 --> 01:45:15.880] Thank you.
[01:45:15.880 --> 01:45:17.880] Hello.
[01:45:17.880 --> 01:45:19.880] Oh, man.
[01:45:19.880 --> 01:45:21.880] I'm in jail.
[01:45:21.880 --> 01:45:23.880] Got something to talk about.
[01:45:23.880 --> 01:45:27.880] I'm broke, dude.
[01:45:31.880 --> 01:45:35.880] Some things in this world I will never understand.
[01:45:35.880 --> 01:45:39.880] Some things in this world I will never understand.
[01:45:39.880 --> 01:45:43.880] Some things I realize fully.
[01:45:43.880 --> 01:45:47.880] Somebody's going to police that policeman.
[01:45:47.880 --> 01:45:51.880] Somebody's going to police the bully.
[01:45:51.880 --> 01:45:53.880] There's always a rule of law.
[01:45:53.880 --> 01:45:54.880] All right.
[01:45:54.880 --> 01:45:56.880] Somebody's going to police the policeman.
[01:45:56.880 --> 01:45:59.880] Somebody's going to bully the bully.
[01:45:59.880 --> 01:46:00.880] That would be us.
[01:46:00.880 --> 01:46:03.880] This is the rule of law on ruleoflawradio.com.
[01:46:03.880 --> 01:46:09.880] Sorry, with all the different format going on tonight,
[01:46:09.880 --> 01:46:12.880] I forgot to make a couple of very important announcements.
[01:46:12.880 --> 01:46:19.880] We have yet another new affiliate in St. Louis, Missouri, 1700AMKDX.
[01:46:19.880 --> 01:46:28.880] We want to welcome our newest affiliate in St. Louis, Missouri, 1700AMKDX.
[01:46:28.880 --> 01:46:34.880] Also, we have another announcement to make.
[01:46:34.880 --> 01:46:39.880] We're adding another show on Wednesday nights from 6 to 8 p.m. Central Time.
[01:46:39.880 --> 01:46:46.880] The host is going to be John Bush from Texans for Accountable Government.
[01:46:46.880 --> 01:46:50.880] The name of his show is still pending,
[01:46:50.880 --> 01:46:56.880] but he will be coming on starting April 15th here on ruleoflawradio.com.
[01:46:56.880 --> 01:47:02.880] We discussed this with him the other night at the Texans for Accountable Government Forum
[01:47:02.880 --> 01:47:05.880] on the police blood withdrawals.
[01:47:05.880 --> 01:47:09.880] We want to welcome John Bush to the crew.
[01:47:09.880 --> 01:47:13.880] He'll be starting his show Wednesday, April 15th.
[01:47:13.880 --> 01:47:17.880] Again, we want to welcome our newest affiliates.
[01:47:17.880 --> 01:47:20.880] That's no relation to Jeb or George.
[01:47:20.880 --> 01:47:21.880] I'm sorry?
[01:47:21.880 --> 01:47:22.880] That's John.
[01:47:22.880 --> 01:47:24.880] No relation to Jeb or George.
[01:47:24.880 --> 01:47:26.880] Right.
[01:47:26.880 --> 01:47:29.880] Now we have Wendy from Tennessee.
[01:47:29.880 --> 01:47:33.880] We've also got Gary from Texas and Terry from Texas on the line.
[01:47:33.880 --> 01:47:35.880] We want to get to everyone's calls tonight.
[01:47:35.880 --> 01:47:40.880] We've got about 11 minutes left, so we want to be concise with our callers.
[01:47:40.880 --> 01:47:41.880] Wendy, thanks for calling in.
[01:47:41.880 --> 01:47:44.880] What's on your mind tonight?
[01:47:44.880 --> 01:47:49.880] The reason why I was calling in, I had talked to Randy yesterday, the day before,
[01:47:49.880 --> 01:47:53.880] and about filing criminal complaints in the federal courts.
[01:47:53.880 --> 01:47:57.880] We also talked about filing a restraining order against the sheriff.
[01:47:57.880 --> 01:48:00.880] I was just going to yell out.
[01:48:00.880 --> 01:48:02.880] I've studied the criminal complaints in the federal courts
[01:48:02.880 --> 01:48:06.880] and how they're supposed to be presented and stuff.
[01:48:06.880 --> 01:48:08.880] Okay.
[01:48:08.880 --> 01:48:13.880] A federal complaint has a specific structure.
[01:48:13.880 --> 01:48:15.880] Yes.
[01:48:15.880 --> 01:48:16.880] Send me an email, remind me.
[01:48:16.880 --> 01:48:23.880] I'll send you a copy of a criminal complaint that I made up on a certain IRS agent.
[01:48:23.880 --> 01:48:25.880] Okay.
[01:48:25.880 --> 01:48:29.880] Send me one on a restraining order, too.
[01:48:29.880 --> 01:48:31.880] I've been studying the criminal.
[01:48:31.880 --> 01:48:32.880] Okay.
[01:48:32.880 --> 01:48:34.880] A restraining order is real simple.
[01:48:34.880 --> 01:48:37.880] You state that these...
[01:48:37.880 --> 01:48:40.880] Matter of fact, Eddie from Texas, I thought he was going to call in.
[01:48:40.880 --> 01:48:41.880] He wrote up a restraining order.
[01:48:41.880 --> 01:48:44.880] It's about 50 pages, and I chastised him about it.
[01:48:44.880 --> 01:48:46.880] I said, that shouldn't be the restraining order.
[01:48:46.880 --> 01:48:47.880] That should be the argument.
[01:48:47.880 --> 01:48:49.880] So he made up another one.
[01:48:49.880 --> 01:48:52.880] It was excellent.
[01:48:52.880 --> 01:48:55.880] Restraining order, you tell the judge,
[01:48:55.880 --> 01:49:00.880] this individual or entity is going to do this thing.
[01:49:00.880 --> 01:49:04.880] If they do this thing, they'll have no authority to do it,
[01:49:04.880 --> 01:49:10.880] or there's some legal issue concerning the doing of this thing.
[01:49:10.880 --> 01:49:15.880] And if they do this, they will cause irreparable harm.
[01:49:15.880 --> 01:49:22.880] If you restrain them, they will not be harmed by the delay.
[01:49:22.880 --> 01:49:25.880] So you ask the court to delay...
[01:49:25.880 --> 01:49:26.880] You show what the harm is.
[01:49:26.880 --> 01:49:30.880] You show why they don't have the right to do what they're doing,
[01:49:30.880 --> 01:49:35.880] and show how they won't be harmed if you delay.
[01:49:35.880 --> 01:49:42.880] It asks the court for a restraining order to give time to hold a show cause hearing,
[01:49:42.880 --> 01:49:47.880] and you'll get that almost out of hand.
[01:49:47.880 --> 01:49:49.880] It's handled like a Ritehavius corpus.
[01:49:49.880 --> 01:49:51.880] You go give it to the judge,
[01:49:51.880 --> 01:49:56.880] and the only thing that takes precedent over it is the Ritehavius corpus.
[01:49:56.880 --> 01:49:59.880] Emergency restraining order, give it to the clerk.
[01:49:59.880 --> 01:50:04.880] The clerk will stamp it, give it back to you, or take it to the judge herself.
[01:50:04.880 --> 01:50:06.880] And you go to the judge.
[01:50:06.880 --> 01:50:08.880] If she takes you to the judge, you go to the judge.
[01:50:08.880 --> 01:50:10.880] The judge will call you, and you ask for the restraining order,
[01:50:10.880 --> 01:50:13.880] and generally they'll just sign it out of hand,
[01:50:13.880 --> 01:50:17.880] because all it does is stay both parties.
[01:50:17.880 --> 01:50:18.880] Nobody does anything.
[01:50:18.880 --> 01:50:20.880] Come to court.
[01:50:20.880 --> 01:50:23.880] Show me what you got, and then I'll make my decision.
[01:50:23.880 --> 01:50:26.880] Generally, it's within 15 days that I'll have a show cause hearing.
[01:50:26.880 --> 01:50:31.880] At the show cause hearing, there you make all your legal arguments.
[01:50:31.880 --> 01:50:35.880] In the restraining order, petition for emergency restraining order,
[01:50:35.880 --> 01:50:41.880] you just give the judge enough to show that you have some reason to do this,
[01:50:41.880 --> 01:50:46.880] and show nobody's going to be badly harmed by it.
[01:50:46.880 --> 01:50:50.880] It essentially asks the judge to stop and wait.
[01:50:50.880 --> 01:50:53.880] That's all there is to that.
[01:50:53.880 --> 01:50:56.880] Okay, we'll get that done.
[01:50:56.880 --> 01:50:57.880] Excellent.
[01:50:57.880 --> 01:51:01.880] If you do have an example of Eddie's, I'd like to read it.
[01:51:01.880 --> 01:51:04.880] I will send you Eddie's, and I'm sure he won't mind.
[01:51:04.880 --> 01:51:06.880] I've got to call him and talk to him.
[01:51:06.880 --> 01:51:09.880] The only thing he asked for was a permanent injunction,
[01:51:09.880 --> 01:51:11.880] and you should have asked for a temporary.
[01:51:11.880 --> 01:51:16.880] You ask for the temporary until you get to the show cause hearing,
[01:51:16.880 --> 01:51:18.880] and at the show cause hearing,
[01:51:18.880 --> 01:51:21.880] then you ask for the judge to make it permanent,
[01:51:21.880 --> 01:51:23.880] and that's the purpose of the show cause hearing.
[01:51:23.880 --> 01:51:25.880] Okay.
[01:51:25.880 --> 01:51:29.880] All right, thank you, Wendy.
[01:51:29.880 --> 01:51:30.880] All right, thank you, Wendy.
[01:51:30.880 --> 01:51:32.880] All right, we have just a few minutes left.
[01:51:32.880 --> 01:51:33.880] We've got two more callers on the line.
[01:51:33.880 --> 01:51:35.880] I want to go to Terry in Texas.
[01:51:35.880 --> 01:51:36.880] I believe Terry is a first-time caller.
[01:51:36.880 --> 01:51:38.880] Terry, are you a first-time caller?
[01:51:38.880 --> 01:51:40.880] How did you know that?
[01:51:40.880 --> 01:51:42.880] Because.
[01:51:42.880 --> 01:51:44.880] Women know everything.
[01:51:44.880 --> 01:51:46.880] Well, no, it's because I'm running the infrastructure.
[01:51:46.880 --> 01:51:47.880] That's why.
[01:51:47.880 --> 01:51:52.880] You put it in a thing that shows who's calling and who's not.
[01:51:52.880 --> 01:51:53.880] So what's on your mind, Terry?
[01:51:53.880 --> 01:51:54.880] Thank you for calling in.
[01:51:54.880 --> 01:51:59.880] I can always call tomorrow if I need, if this one's too long,
[01:51:59.880 --> 01:52:00.880] because I realize you guys are open later.
[01:52:00.880 --> 01:52:02.880] But, anyway, quick question.
[01:52:02.880 --> 01:52:06.880] If we can get an answer tonight, fine, I'll answer tomorrow if that's the case.
[01:52:06.880 --> 01:52:09.880] I have bought a car in a real long time.
[01:52:09.880 --> 01:52:13.880] I got rid of my other car and I bought a used vehicle.
[01:52:13.880 --> 01:52:14.880] I've been out of town quite a bit.
[01:52:14.880 --> 01:52:16.880] I let it lapse for about a year.
[01:52:16.880 --> 01:52:17.880] Didn't get it registered.
[01:52:17.880 --> 01:52:18.880] Went and got it.
[01:52:18.880 --> 01:52:20.880] Tried to go down today.
[01:52:20.880 --> 01:52:22.880] I've got the title on the vehicle.
[01:52:22.880 --> 01:52:23.880] It's used.
[01:52:23.880 --> 01:52:27.880] I went to go, I guess, I don't know if it's considered registered.
[01:52:27.880 --> 01:52:28.880] I'm familiar with it.
[01:52:28.880 --> 01:52:29.880] It's been so long since I did it.
[01:52:29.880 --> 01:52:32.880] They were supposed to issue, I guess, you got when you buy it from them,
[01:52:32.880 --> 01:52:34.880] he signs the title over to you.
[01:52:34.880 --> 01:52:38.880] You get, I guess, a new title and get registered.
[01:52:38.880 --> 01:52:42.880] What I want to know is on this, in the state of Texas, in Austin,
[01:52:42.880 --> 01:52:44.880] in particular, I guess it really doesn't matter,
[01:52:44.880 --> 01:52:47.880] they're saying on one of these forums that they want you.
[01:52:47.880 --> 01:52:51.880] Now, this is new information to me that they require a Social Security number.
[01:52:51.880 --> 01:52:53.880] Is that true or is that not true?
[01:52:53.880 --> 01:52:57.880] They ask for it and you tell them, forget about it, ain't going to happen.
[01:52:57.880 --> 01:53:01.880] If you make me do it, I'll have to get the security over here to arrest you
[01:53:01.880 --> 01:53:04.880] because it's against the law and they'll say, oh, they'll find out.
[01:53:04.880 --> 01:53:08.880] Now, I went to a place on Justin Lane and they said I had to have it.
[01:53:08.880 --> 01:53:11.880] And then they caused a big stink about it and I walked out.
[01:53:11.880 --> 01:53:13.880] It was their service they use.
[01:53:13.880 --> 01:53:16.880] So if I walk down to the county and fill out all this stuff,
[01:53:16.880 --> 01:53:19.880] I shouldn't, it's got a thing on the very, on the bottom.
[01:53:19.880 --> 01:53:24.880] It says, no, transportation code 501 dash or dot 0234 requires
[01:53:24.880 --> 01:53:26.880] that African Social Security number be provided
[01:53:26.880 --> 01:53:29.880] when applying for a certificate of title.
[01:53:29.880 --> 01:53:32.880] Yeah, but there's been a lot of stink about that lately
[01:53:32.880 --> 01:53:39.880] because the Social Security number is not allowed to be used
[01:53:39.880 --> 01:53:42.880] as a form of identification.
[01:53:42.880 --> 01:53:46.880] If you have a specific objection to it, to giving them your Social Security number,
[01:53:46.880 --> 01:53:49.880] I would sure raise it to them.
[01:53:49.880 --> 01:53:54.880] And if you want to put them on the dime, you take a disclaimer with you
[01:53:54.880 --> 01:53:59.880] and ask them to sign it in case your identity is stolen,
[01:53:59.880 --> 01:54:03.880] that they agree to be liable.
[01:54:03.880 --> 01:54:05.880] Okay.
[01:54:05.880 --> 01:54:08.880] You know, there was, just a couple years ago,
[01:54:08.880 --> 01:54:16.880] the Attorney General made all of the clerks in all of the counties
[01:54:16.880 --> 01:54:20.880] start taking all of the Social Security numbers out of all of the records.
[01:54:20.880 --> 01:54:22.880] So you think if I take this down to the county,
[01:54:22.880 --> 01:54:24.880] even though this form will be generated again,
[01:54:24.880 --> 01:54:29.880] they won't make me try to food swoggle me to put it on there,
[01:54:29.880 --> 01:54:31.880] and when I say no, they'll just melt?
[01:54:31.880 --> 01:54:33.880] Most likely they won't pursue
[01:54:33.880 --> 01:54:37.880] because there was so much problem with Social Security number.
[01:54:37.880 --> 01:54:40.880] You tell them it's a crime to use a Social Security number
[01:54:40.880 --> 01:54:46.880] as a form of identification, and you subject me to identity theft.
[01:54:46.880 --> 01:54:49.880] So if you insist, then I want you to sign this disclaimer
[01:54:49.880 --> 01:54:54.880] that you'll be liable if someone steals my identity.
[01:54:54.880 --> 01:54:56.880] Okay.
[01:54:56.880 --> 01:54:57.880] It doesn't require for ID.
[01:54:57.880 --> 01:55:00.880] It just has it on the box on the side, county use only,
[01:55:00.880 --> 01:55:04.880] Part 13, applicant, additional applicant, Social Security numbers.
[01:55:04.880 --> 01:55:06.880] Well, you don't care what they're going to use it for.
[01:55:06.880 --> 01:55:10.880] You just know if somebody gets it and steals your ID,
[01:55:10.880 --> 01:55:12.880] I'm coming to you, Bubba.
[01:55:12.880 --> 01:55:14.880] I'm going to hold you responsible for it.
[01:55:14.880 --> 01:55:17.880] That'll generally get them to find another way to do that.
[01:55:17.880 --> 01:55:18.880] Okay.
[01:55:18.880 --> 01:55:19.880] Hi, Terry.
[01:55:19.880 --> 01:55:21.880] Would you like to call back in tomorrow night?
[01:55:21.880 --> 01:55:24.880] I'm going to go down tomorrow, and if I'll see what headway I got,
[01:55:24.880 --> 01:55:25.880] and if not, I'll come back tomorrow.
[01:55:25.880 --> 01:55:26.880] I'll call you back tomorrow.
[01:55:26.880 --> 01:55:27.880] All right, sounds good.
[01:55:27.880 --> 01:55:28.880] Thank you, Terry.
[01:55:28.880 --> 01:55:30.880] If you're a valuable assistance, I'll make a donation.
[01:55:30.880 --> 01:55:31.880] Oh, thank you.
[01:55:31.880 --> 01:55:34.880] If I get a call from the jail, Terry from Texas, I'll say,
[01:55:34.880 --> 01:55:36.880] Terry, who?
[01:55:36.880 --> 01:55:37.880] Okay, thank you, Terry.
[01:55:37.880 --> 01:55:38.880] Thank you very much.
[01:55:38.880 --> 01:55:39.880] Okay, we just have a couple minutes left.
[01:55:39.880 --> 01:55:42.880] We're going now to Gary in Texas.
[01:55:42.880 --> 01:55:43.880] Hey, Gary, thanks for calling in.
[01:55:43.880 --> 01:55:44.880] What's on your mind tonight?
[01:55:44.880 --> 01:55:45.880] Hey, good evening.
[01:55:45.880 --> 01:55:49.880] Hey, just a quick thing about the checkpoints.
[01:55:49.880 --> 01:55:57.880] I wonder if we're making the wrong argument about them,
[01:55:57.880 --> 01:56:02.880] because the checkpoints and the transportation code apply to
[01:56:02.880 --> 01:56:08.880] those who are under the privilege of driving.
[01:56:08.880 --> 01:56:10.880] And I'm wondering if this doesn't get back to that same old
[01:56:10.880 --> 01:56:13.880] fundamental argument about the right of travel versus the
[01:56:13.880 --> 01:56:18.880] privilege of driving, driving being a commercial pursuit,
[01:56:18.880 --> 01:56:22.880] traveling being a fundamental constitutional right.
[01:56:22.880 --> 01:56:26.880] It does get to that, but we haven't got that properly
[01:56:26.880 --> 01:56:28.880] adjudicated yet.
[01:56:28.880 --> 01:56:30.880] There's not enough of us.
[01:56:30.880 --> 01:56:31.880] That's right.
[01:56:31.880 --> 01:56:35.880] You know, if 10,000 people sent their license back in their
[01:56:35.880 --> 01:56:39.880] place and said we're done, we're not playing the charade anymore.
[01:56:39.880 --> 01:56:41.880] Well, we know that, you know.
[01:56:41.880 --> 01:56:43.880] You got a good point there, Gary.
[01:56:43.880 --> 01:56:44.880] I'm sorry.
[01:56:44.880 --> 01:56:50.880] If 10,000 people sued the judge for violating the ministerial
[01:56:50.880 --> 01:56:55.880] duty to apply the law as it exists to the facts developed,
[01:56:55.880 --> 01:56:57.880] that would get it done.
[01:56:57.880 --> 01:56:58.880] Well, it would.
[01:56:58.880 --> 01:57:02.880] So what we're seeing, not only in the transportation issue,
[01:57:02.880 --> 01:57:06.880] but with so many issues, we are seeing rampant
[01:57:06.880 --> 01:57:13.880] misinforcement of good law and good statute.
[01:57:13.880 --> 01:57:17.880] The transportation code is misinforced,
[01:57:17.880 --> 01:57:19.880] because mama who's taking her kids to school,
[01:57:19.880 --> 01:57:22.880] she's not transporting.
[01:57:22.880 --> 01:57:25.880] She's merely traveling, private.
[01:57:25.880 --> 01:57:30.880] It has nothing to do with any commercial enterprise.
[01:57:30.880 --> 01:57:32.880] And the transportation code is a very,
[01:57:32.880 --> 01:57:36.880] very good thing for those to whom it applies.
[01:57:36.880 --> 01:57:39.880] But for those of us who are merely exercising our right of
[01:57:39.880 --> 01:57:43.880] public vehicle travel, they need to leave us alone.
[01:57:43.880 --> 01:57:46.880] I'm just tired of playing this game.
[01:57:46.880 --> 01:57:50.880] Well, that is just a fight I haven't got to yet.
[01:57:50.880 --> 01:57:53.880] I'm trying to soften up the courts.
[01:57:53.880 --> 01:57:55.880] Once we get the courts softened up,
[01:57:55.880 --> 01:57:59.880] then we can go and start kicking those municipal judges.
[01:57:59.880 --> 01:58:00.880] I agree.
[01:58:00.880 --> 01:58:02.880] You know, so many of these arguments we make is they're
[01:58:02.880 --> 01:58:04.880] about as profitable as trying to figure out how many angels
[01:58:04.880 --> 01:58:07.880] can dance on the head of a straight skin.
[01:58:07.880 --> 01:58:08.880] Really?
[01:58:08.880 --> 01:58:09.880] Yeah.
[01:58:09.880 --> 01:58:10.880] Yeah.
[01:58:10.880 --> 01:58:12.880] I guess this is to be carried forth to another day, huh?
[01:58:12.880 --> 01:58:14.880] Yes.
[01:58:14.880 --> 01:58:15.880] All right.
[01:58:15.880 --> 01:58:16.880] Thank you for calling in, Gary.
[01:58:16.880 --> 01:58:17.880] We're at the end of the show now.
[01:58:17.880 --> 01:58:18.880] Bye.
[01:58:18.880 --> 01:58:19.880] Bye-bye.
[01:58:19.880 --> 01:58:20.880] All right.
[01:58:20.880 --> 01:58:23.880] Tomorrow night, 6 to 8, Agenda 21 Talk,
[01:58:23.880 --> 01:58:25.880] Greg Chapman and Don Terry.
[01:58:25.880 --> 01:58:29.880] And then we will be doing our Friday Night Info Marathon
[01:58:29.880 --> 01:58:31.880] from 8 to midnight.
[01:58:31.880 --> 01:58:32.880] So tune in.
[01:58:32.880 --> 01:58:36.880] The Rule of Law, ruleoflawradios.com.
[01:58:36.880 --> 01:58:38.880] We'll see you tomorrow night.
[01:58:38.880 --> 01:58:50.880] Thank you.
[01:59:08.880 --> 01:59:33.880] Thank you.
[01:59:33.880 --> 01:59:55.880] Thank you.