[00:00.000 --> 00:12.720] In Pakistan, Dr Hafiz Pasha, head of a panel of economists, said Pakistan suffered $6 billion [00:12.720 --> 00:19.920] in economic losses during 2007-2008, supporting the war on terror. Pasha said the US should [00:19.920 --> 00:26.220] double its aid to Pakistan in view of these massive losses. General David Petraeus, the [00:26.220 --> 00:31.480] top US commander in the Middle East, warned Congress Wednesday Israel may preemptively [00:31.480 --> 00:39.900] strike Iran over concerns about its development of nuclear weapons. Israel's controversial [00:39.900 --> 00:45.880] Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman declared Israel is no longer bound by the peace commitments [00:45.880 --> 00:51.380] made at the 2007 Annapolis conference. The new government of Prime Minister Benjamin [00:51.380 --> 00:57.440] Netanyahu intends to distance itself from the US-sponsored peace initiatives, and talks [00:57.440 --> 01:06.740] on Palestinian statehood are all but dead. [01:06.740 --> 01:12.720] Cambodia's Prime Minister Han Sen has rejected calls to put more former Khmer Rouge officials [01:12.720 --> 01:20.120] on trial. Han said efforts to widen the scope of the UN-backed tribunal could plunge the [01:20.120 --> 01:26.440] country into civil war. The Khmer Rouge's former prison chief, Kheng Goek Eve, known [01:26.440 --> 01:32.160] as Doik, is the first high official to face trial for crimes committed more than 30 years [01:32.160 --> 01:40.600] ago. Doik is accused of war crimes and crimes against humanity. On Tuesday, he apologized [01:40.600 --> 01:46.040] for the deaths of more than 14,000 people at the Torture and Interrogation Center he [01:46.040 --> 01:52.480] ran in Phnom Penh. Four other former Khmer Rouge leaders are currently awaiting trial. [01:52.480 --> 02:00.840] 1.7 million Cambodians died during the Khmer Rouge's rule between 1975 and 1979. Human [02:00.840 --> 02:06.040] rights groups suspect the Prime Minister is keen to avoid an in-depth investigation for [02:06.040 --> 02:11.360] fear it will reveal secrets about senior Khmer Rouge figures in his administration. [02:11.360 --> 02:20.800] As Mexico suffers from the worst drug-related bloodshed in its history, a growing number [02:20.800 --> 02:26.600] of politicians and pundits there are calling for the legalization of drugs. In recent months, [02:26.600 --> 02:32.720] two bills have been filed in the Mexican Congress, one advocating decriminalization of marijuana [02:32.720 --> 02:38.920] for personal use and the other including cocaine and heroin. Elisa Conde, the federal congresswoman [02:38.920 --> 02:45.320] who filed the marijuana bill said, quote, we need to look at new ways of stopping all [02:45.320 --> 02:52.320] these billions of dollars going to the gangsters. Mexican drug gangs make an estimated $30 billion [02:52.320 --> 03:09.160] a year trafficking drugs to the U.S. You are listening to the Rule of Law Radio Network [03:09.160 --> 03:25.960] and speech talk radio at its best. [03:25.960 --> 03:51.760] 1.3 million immigrants died in the U.S. hits with over 100 people killing themselves now [03:51.760 --> 04:05.560] Alright, this is the Rule of Law, Randy Kelton and Debra Stevens here on Rule of Law Radio, [04:05.560 --> 04:06.560] ruleoflawradio.com. [04:06.560 --> 04:12.160] Alright, we have something special planned for y'all tonight at the beginning of our [04:12.160 --> 04:13.660] show. [04:13.660 --> 04:21.100] We had some difficulty getting through to Tom's guest, Stephen Kinzer, and so we are [04:21.100 --> 04:26.360] going to allow these two gentlemen to continue their conversation into the beginning of our [04:26.360 --> 04:29.440] show, first half hour or so. [04:29.440 --> 04:35.120] So Tom and Stephen, thank you for agreeing to stay over, and Tom, we're going to turn [04:35.120 --> 04:39.840] it back over to you right now, and if you could just briefly explain who our guest is [04:39.840 --> 04:42.600] for the sake of our listeners who may just be tuning in. [04:42.600 --> 04:47.640] Absolutely, and thank you both Randy and Debra so much for allowing us to spill over a little [04:47.640 --> 04:48.640] bit into your program. [04:48.640 --> 04:49.640] Sure, no problem. [04:49.640 --> 04:53.600] We had a little bit of a hard time getting the interview portion of our program started [04:53.600 --> 04:54.600] tonight. [04:54.600 --> 04:58.280] Good friends, those of you who listen to the Rule of Law program here on Rule of Law Radio, [04:58.280 --> 05:03.080] welcome to a little bit of an extension of the INM War Report radio tonight, and we have [05:03.080 --> 05:08.800] the pleasure of speaking with one, I have to say, good friends, one of the best researchers [05:08.800 --> 05:14.600] and journalists that I've had the pleasure to interview on INM War Report in almost eight [05:14.600 --> 05:18.940] years that we've been on the air, and we're talking tonight with journalist and author [05:18.940 --> 05:25.000] Stephen Kinzer, who has been the New York Times Foreign Bureau Chief in a number of [05:25.000 --> 05:30.200] hot spots around the world, and if you listen to my program, you know that I usually rail [05:30.200 --> 05:34.320] against the corporate media and the inadequate job that it does. [05:34.320 --> 05:37.720] Well here, in this case, there is a shining exception. [05:37.720 --> 05:43.560] I believe that I have learned so much valuable context from our guest, Stephen Kinzer, and [05:43.560 --> 05:49.400] the work that he's done, a context that I find so many smart people even are missing, [05:49.400 --> 05:55.240] and yet it so helps to put things into a very clear perspective, and in specific, his great [05:55.240 --> 06:01.440] book about the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Iran in 1953 by the [06:01.440 --> 06:07.800] young CIA in his book called All the Shah's Men, and he's written about how that process [06:07.800 --> 06:12.680] has been repeated some fourteen times around the world since, and maybe perhaps in some [06:12.680 --> 06:19.600] cases a little bit before, but Stephen, we were just talking before the break about how [06:19.600 --> 06:27.040] ironically so many people don't seem to have this context and how we don't, part of the [06:27.040 --> 06:30.640] reason we don't seem to have this context is because this kind of thing happens under [06:30.640 --> 06:31.640] the radar. [06:31.640 --> 06:36.160] It happens in secret, and we don't believe that we're capable of doing things like taking [06:36.160 --> 06:41.500] a healthy, strong democracy away from people who love it in other parts of the world. [06:41.500 --> 06:46.360] We don't see ourselves as a country that would do something like that, do we? [06:46.360 --> 06:54.480] It's great that you use that word, ironically, because it really leads us into a fantastic [06:54.480 --> 06:58.880] example of that, and this is a situation that we're now facing with Iran. [06:58.880 --> 07:06.080] So here we have this crisis with this supposedly snarling regime that's building potentially [07:06.080 --> 07:11.200] nuclear weapons, and we're wondering why they would do this, and how they ever got these [07:11.200 --> 07:12.200] crazy ideas. [07:12.200 --> 07:17.320] So let's look back a little bit at what happened to create this crisis in Iran. [07:17.320 --> 07:24.160] So in the early 1950s, Iran was actually a thriving democracy with a parliament and [07:24.160 --> 07:30.320] different political parties representing various points of view and a very popular prime minister, [07:30.320 --> 07:37.360] Mohammed Mosaddegh, but because Iran was a democracy, the prime minister had to respond [07:37.360 --> 07:43.440] to the ordinary people, and the great desire of Iranians at that time was something that [07:43.440 --> 07:49.320] we should be able to understand, and that was their desire to take back control over [07:49.320 --> 07:54.800] their one great natural resource, and that is oil. [07:54.800 --> 08:01.320] At this time, Iran was then, as it is now, sitting on an ocean of oil, but all of the [08:01.320 --> 08:09.000] Iranian oil industry was owned by one foreign company, and this company was owned in turn [08:09.000 --> 08:11.560] largely by the government of Great Britain. [08:11.560 --> 08:17.520] So the Iranians decided, we've got to take back control of our oil and use the profits [08:17.520 --> 08:20.280] from that oil to develop our own country. [08:20.280 --> 08:26.160] Those profits should not be used to power the British navy and the British economy. [08:26.160 --> 08:31.760] So that, of course, terrified the British, they tried to overthrow Mosaddegh, when that [08:31.760 --> 08:37.320] didn't work, they came to the Americans, and finally the Americans, through the CIA, agreed [08:37.320 --> 08:41.640] that we would go in and overthrow this democratically elected leader. [08:41.640 --> 08:44.080] We did that in the summer of 1953. [08:44.080 --> 08:51.320] Now, we didn't just overthrow one prime minister, Mosaddegh, we overthrew the entire democratic [08:51.320 --> 08:53.240] system of Iran. [08:53.240 --> 08:59.640] We imposed a tyrant, the Shah, who we liked, because he would do everything we wanted, [08:59.640 --> 09:03.400] but we ended democracy in the Muslim Middle East. [09:03.400 --> 09:08.720] I can hardly wrap my mind around how different the Middle East might be now if we had had [09:08.720 --> 09:13.720] a thriving democracy in that region in the heart of the Muslim Middle East all these [09:13.720 --> 09:14.880] 50 years. [09:14.880 --> 09:19.880] So when we overthrew Prime Minister Mosaddegh and put the Shah in, we thought we'd achieved [09:19.880 --> 09:20.880] a success. [09:20.880 --> 09:25.360] So we got rid of a guy we didn't like, and we replaced him with a guy who would do everything [09:25.360 --> 09:26.360] we wanted. [09:26.360 --> 09:33.080] But now, as we look back from the perspective of history, we can see what terrible damage [09:33.080 --> 09:36.880] that brought, not just to Iran, but also to us. [09:36.880 --> 09:45.080] So that Shah that we imposed back on his throne ruled with increasing repression for 25 years. [09:45.080 --> 09:52.320] His repression produced the explosion of the late 1970s, what we call the Islamic Revolution. [09:52.320 --> 09:57.440] That revolution brought to power this clique of fanatically anti-American mullahs who spent [09:57.440 --> 10:03.360] 30 years working intensely and sometimes very violently to undermine American and Western [10:03.360 --> 10:05.440] interests all over the world. [10:05.440 --> 10:11.320] That revolution also encouraged the invasion of Iran by next door Saddam Hussein, supported [10:11.320 --> 10:13.660] by the United States, as we talked about earlier. [10:13.660 --> 10:21.040] That revolution also terrified the Soviets because they were afraid there'd be copycat [10:21.040 --> 10:26.600] Muslim radical revolutions all along their southern frontier. [10:26.600 --> 10:29.920] That led them to invade Afghanistan. [10:29.920 --> 10:35.960] It was their intervention in Afghanistan that led the CIA to decide, we should start a project [10:35.960 --> 10:41.760] there with billions of dollars of CIA money to train every mujahideen and jihadi in the [10:41.760 --> 10:47.800] whole world to go into Afghanistan and fight the infidel, never realizing that a few years [10:47.800 --> 10:52.120] later we would be the infidel that those people would want to fight. [10:52.120 --> 10:56.800] That was the project that brought Osama bin Laden to that part of the world with results [10:56.800 --> 10:58.280] that we all know. [10:58.280 --> 11:04.800] So now when we look back on that intervention in Iran in 1953, it doesn't seem quite so [11:04.800 --> 11:08.000] successful as it did at the time. [11:08.000 --> 11:15.120] Now there you have it, good friends, that's why I enjoy so much talking with Stephen Kinzer. [11:15.120 --> 11:26.120] You just saw somebody draw a line from our destruction of the only democracy in the Arab [11:26.120 --> 11:34.920] and Islamic Middle East, because of course Iran is not Arabic, it is Persian. [11:34.920 --> 11:38.720] And our politicians, by the way, to this day they'll use it as a justification to go in [11:38.720 --> 11:39.720] there and have a war. [11:39.720 --> 11:43.720] They'll wag their finger in our face and say, but they're not democratic. [11:43.720 --> 11:49.420] And in fact we've gone so insanely far into this that I think it is 2003 State of the [11:49.420 --> 11:55.120] Union address George Bush said the people of Iran deserve democracy. [11:55.120 --> 12:00.160] You just heard a timeline there and I think it's got a lot of credence that draws back [12:00.160 --> 12:05.800] from the days that we destabilized the only democracy in the Arab, I should say in the [12:05.800 --> 12:10.440] Muslim Middle East, and it goes all the way through this whole timeline of events. [12:10.440 --> 12:14.720] And Stephen, wouldn't you say you could even extend that to September 11th, at least the [12:14.720 --> 12:18.400] official version of events on how it went down? [12:18.400 --> 12:26.240] Absolutely, I think it is not too far-fetched to say that you can draw a line from the U.S. [12:26.240 --> 12:34.680] intervention in Iran in 1953 through the long rule of the Shah to the Islamic revolution [12:34.680 --> 12:40.440] and the inspiration that that gave to fundamentalist Muslim radicals around the world to take over [12:40.440 --> 12:46.520] countries in which they succeeded in doing Afghanistan and which then drew the United [12:46.520 --> 12:54.880] States into providing a magnet for radical Muslims from all over the world, including [12:54.880 --> 13:00.000] Osama bin Laden, who established their base in this country that we had helped destabilize [13:00.000 --> 13:07.400] Afghanistan and then use that platform to attack the Twin Towers on September 11th. [13:07.400 --> 13:15.240] There's no doubt that these people who are using methods that we all find so repulsive [13:15.240 --> 13:17.040] are not just blind nihilists. [13:17.040 --> 13:24.320] You know, I really believe that everything, even the most evil act, have a background. [13:24.320 --> 13:25.600] You try to understand them. [13:25.600 --> 13:29.720] It doesn't mean that you excuse them, but you understand them. [13:29.720 --> 13:35.400] Let me just tell you one little story that I heard from a guy who had been a hostage [13:35.400 --> 13:37.480] in Iran during that hostage crisis. [13:37.480 --> 13:42.200] He was the senior American diplomat in Iran, the acting ambassador, Bruce Langen, at the [13:42.200 --> 13:43.560] U.S. Embassy in Tehran. [13:43.560 --> 13:47.400] So I got to meet him a couple of years ago at a panel about Iran. [13:47.400 --> 13:52.040] I'd never talked to him before, but I knew that he'd become an advocate of better relations [13:52.040 --> 13:56.840] between the U.S. and Iran, which I thought was quite remarkable considering the great [13:56.840 --> 14:00.280] terrible suffering that he was subjected to as a hostage. [14:00.280 --> 14:04.480] And I spoke to him afterwards and we exchanged a few emails and he told me this story. [14:04.480 --> 14:11.240] He said, I've been sitting in that miserable solitary cell for about one year as a hostage [14:11.240 --> 14:17.680] when one day the cell door opened and there was standing one of my jailers, one of the [14:17.680 --> 14:18.680] hostage takers. [14:18.680 --> 14:24.640] And I was so angry, one whole year of my rage and my frustration boiled over and I started [14:24.640 --> 14:29.280] screaming at him and I started telling him, you have no right to do this, this violates [14:29.280 --> 14:32.720] every law of God and man, you cannot take innocent people hostage. [14:32.720 --> 14:37.640] And he said, I went on and on for several minutes until I ran out of breath. [14:37.640 --> 14:43.840] And finally, this Iranian guy leaned his head into my cell and in very good English said, [14:43.840 --> 14:52.600] you have no right to complain because in 1953 you took our whole country hostage. [14:52.600 --> 14:58.760] Now this is something that Americans don't really realize, that there was something lying [14:58.760 --> 15:00.440] behind all this. [15:00.440 --> 15:06.840] What I think the fundamental lesson is, is that when you intervene violently in the political [15:06.840 --> 15:13.000] prophecies of another country, you are doing something like releasing a wheel at the top [15:13.000 --> 15:14.000] of a hill. [15:14.000 --> 15:19.880] You can let it go, but you have no control over how it's going to bounce or where it's [15:19.880 --> 15:22.280] ultimately going to end up. [15:22.280 --> 15:25.320] These interventions are easily forgotten in the US. [15:25.320 --> 15:29.880] We forget that we did it, but the effects are long term. [15:29.880 --> 15:35.520] These interventions burn and they fester in the minds and hearts and souls of people in [15:35.520 --> 15:46.240] other countries and the ultimate result bursts out years or decades later and winds up devastating [15:46.240 --> 15:52.160] the national security that we thought we were protecting by intervening in the first place. [15:52.160 --> 15:57.080] Well I'm going to take one issue with that and that is, I wouldn't subscribe to the notion [15:57.080 --> 16:03.840] that we soon forget because in the case of this deceitful destruction of a democracy, [16:03.840 --> 16:10.480] the only Muslim democracy in the Middle East, it was done surreptitiously because it is [16:10.480 --> 16:14.000] against, I believe, the good nature of the American people. [16:14.000 --> 16:19.160] It is against, I think, the good nature of so many people who are listening to us tonight. [16:19.160 --> 16:20.640] I'd like to see what your take is on that. [16:20.640 --> 16:24.040] We're going to go on break here though, Stephen, if you can hold that in just a second. [16:24.040 --> 16:28.440] Folks, we're speaking, this is the INM War Report radio, a little bit extended tonight [16:28.440 --> 16:31.960] into the Rule of Law radio program because we had a little bit of trouble getting our [16:31.960 --> 16:36.240] interview started, but I want to thank Randy and Debra so much for allowing this to take [16:36.240 --> 16:42.520] place because I hope you agree, you are hearing tonight here on Rule of Law radio such important [16:42.520 --> 16:48.800] information, such an important context for how we got ourselves to where we are today, [16:48.800 --> 16:50.880] especially vis-a-vis Iran. [16:50.880 --> 16:53.560] We're going to be right back after this short message. [16:53.560 --> 16:56.440] We're talking with Stephen Kinzer. 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[17:47.760 --> 17:57.520] Please visit sleepwellinvestment.com or call Bill Schober at 817-975-2431. [17:57.520 --> 18:18.560] At sleepwellinvestment.com or call 817-975-2431. [18:27.520 --> 18:55.960] All right, good friends. [18:55.960 --> 18:56.960] Welcome back. [18:56.960 --> 19:01.600] This is the Rule of Law Radio program on the Rule of Law Radio Network, but you probably [19:01.600 --> 19:05.920] don't recognize my voice as being one of the hosts of the Rule of Law Radio program and [19:05.920 --> 19:11.880] that's because my name is Tom Kiley and I host INM War Report Radio which comes on just [19:11.880 --> 19:16.520] before this program on Thursday nights here on the same network on the Rule of Law Radio [19:16.520 --> 19:20.700] Network and Debra and Randy have been very gracious to allow us to go a little bit over [19:20.700 --> 19:25.300] into their program tonight because we got a late start with our interview with a fascinating [19:25.300 --> 19:31.520] guest Stephen Kinzer who I have been dying to introduce my great audience to, or our [19:31.520 --> 19:36.360] great audience to I should say, a rule of law with somebody who's just done a fantastic [19:36.360 --> 19:43.120] job, a great service to the United States, to the people of America to get them to know, [19:43.120 --> 19:48.440] to get us to know our lost history, how we got into so many of these very terrible situations [19:48.440 --> 19:53.720] that we find ourselves in and without that knowledge the damn politicians that got us [19:53.720 --> 19:58.340] into them are going to just try to take advantage of that ignorance and get us into these things [19:58.340 --> 20:00.040] all over again. [20:00.040 --> 20:08.160] Stephen, we were talking about the terrible ramifications, what happened when a democracy [20:08.160 --> 20:15.960] in the Islamic Middle East in 1953 was destroyed. [20:15.960 --> 20:18.520] Can you tell us a little bit about the quality of that democracy? [20:18.520 --> 20:23.000] I've had Iranians practically crying telling me what did you people do? [20:23.000 --> 20:25.520] It was such a beautiful time in our country. [20:25.520 --> 20:28.880] We were experiencing the fresh air of democracy. [20:28.880 --> 20:31.520] We loved our elected government. [20:31.520 --> 20:36.000] We loved our premier, Mohamed Mossadeghi, who was like George Washington to us. [20:36.000 --> 20:37.480] Why did you do that? [20:37.480 --> 20:45.880] How did the Iranian people take to democracy when they got it finally in the early 50s? [20:45.880 --> 20:50.640] Actually Iran had been working toward democracy for almost half a century then. [20:50.640 --> 20:56.880] Iran had a constitution in 1906, something that many countries in the Middle East still [20:56.880 --> 21:00.000] haven't gotten even now. [21:00.000 --> 21:05.440] When the United States shakes a finger at Iran, as you mentioned earlier, and says you're [21:05.440 --> 21:11.960] an oppressive, brutal regime over there, you should have a democracy, we have to understand [21:11.960 --> 21:17.840] how the Iranians would look back at us and say, wait a minute, we had a democracy until [21:17.840 --> 21:21.040] you came over and destroyed it. [21:21.040 --> 21:27.280] This was a real tragedy, not just for Iran, but also for the United States. [21:27.280 --> 21:33.040] If the United States had been able to live with this democracy in the Middle East, we [21:33.040 --> 21:37.640] might have been able to change the entire dynamic of everything that's happened in that [21:37.640 --> 21:41.400] region over this last half century. [21:41.400 --> 21:49.840] In the early years after World War II, the winds of anti-colonialism and democracy were [21:49.840 --> 21:53.880] blowing through the Third World, through Africa and Asia and Latin America. [21:53.880 --> 21:59.680] In Iran, what that meant was let's elect our own government so we can take back control [21:59.680 --> 22:00.680] of our oil. [22:00.680 --> 22:03.520] It all went back to this one resource. [22:03.520 --> 22:11.000] If the Iranian government had not been democratic and had not tried to respond to the desire [22:11.000 --> 22:16.240] of its own people to take back control of this oil, we never would have overthrown it. [22:16.240 --> 22:22.000] This is one of the real tragedies that we see in the history of American intervention, [22:22.000 --> 22:29.120] that when governments respond to popular will, which is what democratic governments are supposed [22:29.120 --> 22:32.240] to do, they tend to be nationalistic. [22:32.240 --> 22:34.880] They want to do things that's good for them. [22:34.880 --> 22:41.040] An elected government always in any country is fundamentally driven by the desire to do [22:41.040 --> 22:46.320] what's good for our country, but the United States has never gotten to the point where [22:46.320 --> 22:52.040] we can realize that people in other countries really want, most of all, to do what's good [22:52.040 --> 22:53.520] for their own country. [22:53.520 --> 22:58.880] We want them to do what's good for our country, but we don't do what's good for any other [22:58.880 --> 22:59.880] country. [22:59.880 --> 23:02.880] In ourselves, we do what's good for our country, which is fine. [23:02.880 --> 23:08.560] Why shouldn't we then tolerate it when people in other countries want to do what's good [23:08.560 --> 23:11.560] for them? [23:11.560 --> 23:19.640] You know, again, oftentimes it's not what's good for our country. [23:19.640 --> 23:26.480] It's what's good for the blue bloods who make all the money off of taking the natural resources [23:26.480 --> 23:35.280] of another country at bargain-basement prices, as was the case in Iran, stealing it practically [23:35.280 --> 23:36.280] from them. [23:36.280 --> 23:42.760] You know, before you came on, Steve, I told our listeners what I learned from your book, [23:42.760 --> 23:49.800] that even the process that the British used to negotiate with the corrupt former Shah [23:49.800 --> 23:57.520] to negotiate the contract on what was to be paid in royalties to Iran, which meant really [23:57.520 --> 24:04.200] to the Shah of Iran, who used it to go gambling in Monte Carlo, even that process was corrupted [24:04.200 --> 24:05.200] by the British. [24:05.200 --> 24:10.980] As I understand it from you, they paid off the Iranian negotiators and bribed them to [24:10.980 --> 24:13.640] drive the bargain down even worse, no? [24:13.640 --> 24:15.120] You're absolutely right. [24:15.120 --> 24:20.840] The entire Iranian government in the pre-democratic days was on the payroll of the British Secret [24:20.840 --> 24:21.840] Service. [24:21.840 --> 24:27.640] The Shah and all of his chief ministers were receiving regular monthly stipends from the [24:27.640 --> 24:28.640] British. [24:28.640 --> 24:36.520] Now, when the Iranians finally decided that they were able to take control of their own [24:36.520 --> 24:42.560] government, they realized that the British, the French, the Russians had been oppressing [24:42.560 --> 24:48.960] them for so long, and the country that they turned to as an alternative was the United [24:48.960 --> 24:49.960] States. [24:49.960 --> 24:52.680] They really idealized America. [24:52.680 --> 24:58.060] They thought of us as a country that was very disinterested, that only wanted to help people [24:58.060 --> 25:03.240] in oppressed nations. [25:03.240 --> 25:07.560] You're quite right when you talk about what's really good for America. [25:07.560 --> 25:14.000] I do believe that it's okay for any country to act in its own interest, but what I would [25:14.000 --> 25:20.480] like to do is let's stop and think what really is in our own interest over the long term [25:20.480 --> 25:24.640] and not act in a way that seems successful at the moment. [25:24.640 --> 25:29.960] We're able to crush some regime we don't like, and we feel good emotionally because like [25:29.960 --> 25:34.360] somebody in a Western movie, we've shot down all the bad guys, but we've actually hurt [25:34.360 --> 25:35.360] ourselves. [25:35.360 --> 25:40.680] So it's okay if the United States acts in our own interest, but let's stop and think [25:40.680 --> 25:46.080] about what really is in our own interest and not do things that seem successful at the [25:46.080 --> 25:51.920] moment, but in the long run, we realize are only for the benefit of a very small group [25:51.920 --> 25:58.440] of Americans and wind up devastating the security of our entire nation. [25:58.440 --> 26:02.440] And to sell it to us, there's a fig leaf put on it that we're fighting communism or we're [26:02.440 --> 26:04.200] fighting a bad guy or whatever. [26:04.200 --> 26:08.120] Stephen, we've got a call that's been holding on the line, Jeff in Texas. [26:08.120 --> 26:09.120] He's got a question. [26:09.120 --> 26:11.000] Jeff, are you enjoying the program tonight? [26:11.000 --> 26:12.000] Absolutely. [26:12.000 --> 26:15.160] Please, please, please have this guest back. [26:15.160 --> 26:17.000] Give all of his contact information. [26:17.000 --> 26:18.720] I'm so impressed. [26:18.720 --> 26:22.080] Everybody involved tonight, the guest is absolutely fascinating. [26:22.080 --> 26:26.600] I think it's great that you were able to front so well when you couldn't get a hold of him. [26:26.600 --> 26:28.800] I think it's great that he's willing to stay after it. [26:28.800 --> 26:35.120] And I think it's incredible that Debra and Mr. Vail with Hammer Kelton were willing to [26:35.120 --> 26:39.200] be so magnanimous and not to, well, it's our agenda, it's our show, we're not going to [26:39.200 --> 26:40.200] give up anything. [26:40.200 --> 26:46.960] They took one for the team because this information is so very important with his incredible history [26:46.960 --> 26:52.440] and all the experience he's had and all his insights that he's earned the hard way. [26:52.440 --> 26:58.000] Could we get him to comment on what he sees, what's going on in the international banking [26:58.000 --> 27:00.880] system and what's happening to America today? [27:00.880 --> 27:06.600] And it's real scary when somebody says, no, no, no, you really should look in the mirror [27:06.600 --> 27:10.560] and think about what it's like to be in their shoes. [27:10.560 --> 27:16.520] But yet again, even though the general public has made lots of mistakes, what can we do [27:16.520 --> 27:21.080] now and what are some of his insights on what's happening in America today? [27:21.080 --> 27:22.080] Thank you so very much. [27:22.080 --> 27:23.080] This is a fascinating program. [27:23.080 --> 27:24.080] Have him back. [27:24.080 --> 27:25.080] Thank you. [27:25.080 --> 27:26.080] We'll be back. [27:26.080 --> 27:27.080] Thank you. [27:27.080 --> 27:29.200] Well, there you go, Stephen. [27:29.200 --> 27:36.360] What do you think about what's going on today as any of this related to the terrible system [27:36.360 --> 27:41.720] that we find ourselves in, the corruption that is bred by these secret activities and [27:41.720 --> 27:43.720] overthrows and corruptions of government? [27:43.720 --> 27:49.680] Has it come back to haunt us as well in the financial crisis that we're going through? [27:49.680 --> 27:53.920] One thing I do sense that's really driving me nuts about what I see happening in America [27:53.920 --> 27:59.640] now is the way it looks for many poorer countries in Latin America and other parts of the world. [27:59.640 --> 28:06.520] So all during the 1980s and 90s, we were promoting this project called the Washington Consensus, [28:06.520 --> 28:12.720] which was a set of economic rules that we thought we had vindicated as eternal truth [28:12.720 --> 28:17.040] once the Soviet empire fell and the U.S. felt victorious. [28:17.040 --> 28:19.600] You were not supposed to provide any subsidies. [28:19.600 --> 28:24.520] You were not supposed to provide low-cost bread and basic foods for ordinary people. [28:24.520 --> 28:29.040] You could not subsidize your bus fares or things that ordinary people meant. [28:29.040 --> 28:35.920] You had to be strictly fiscally conservative, no deficits, no sponsorship of any social [28:35.920 --> 28:42.000] program, and we insisted that countries follow this or we cut them off completely from their [28:42.000 --> 28:46.200] financial access to the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund and all these [28:46.200 --> 28:50.200] other institutions that are vital to their survival. [28:50.200 --> 29:00.240] Now, we are following the exact financial package that these countries were forbidden [29:00.240 --> 29:01.680] by us to follow. [29:01.680 --> 29:04.840] Well, we say, oh, now we find ourselves in a special situation. [29:04.840 --> 29:06.080] We need to do this. [29:06.080 --> 29:11.160] And then looking at us and saying, yeah, we needed to do that too 10 or 15 years ago, [29:11.160 --> 29:13.920] but you didn't allow us to do it. [29:13.920 --> 29:16.720] It shows how different the world looks from different perspectives. [29:16.720 --> 29:19.040] Let me just give you one other example of this. [29:19.040 --> 29:24.040] It's a little bit outside the banking network, but it really does show the difference in [29:24.040 --> 29:25.040] perception. [29:25.040 --> 29:27.600] And this is a story about Ecuador. [29:27.600 --> 29:32.760] So in Ecuador, in South America, the United States maintains a very large military base. [29:32.760 --> 29:35.600] It's actually our largest base in South America. [29:35.600 --> 29:40.320] It's used to monitor drug flights and it's used to monitor who knows what else. [29:40.320 --> 29:41.360] I don't know. [29:41.360 --> 29:47.200] But in any case, in the last presidential election in Ecuador two years ago, this base [29:47.200 --> 29:48.760] became a big issue. [29:48.760 --> 29:52.360] One candidate said, if I get elected, I'm going to close it. [29:52.360 --> 29:55.360] And the other one said, if I get elected, I'm going to keep it open. [29:55.360 --> 30:00.520] The election came and the candidate who had vowed to close this base got elected. [30:00.520 --> 30:05.520] So after that, the Americans went in and said, well, we know what you said in your campaign, [30:05.520 --> 30:09.560] but couldn't we work out some kind of a way that you would keep this base open, it's very [30:09.560 --> 30:11.320] important to us and so forth. [30:11.320 --> 30:13.000] And they put a lot of pressure on them. [30:13.000 --> 30:16.080] And finally, he gave a public speech, which was really fascinating. [30:16.080 --> 30:19.040] This was President Rafael Correa. [30:19.040 --> 30:23.960] He said, you know, the Americans really want to keep their base open here at Manta on our [30:23.960 --> 30:26.200] Pacific coast here in Ecuador. [30:26.200 --> 30:29.720] And the more I listen to them, the more I think, you know, maybe they have a point. [30:29.720 --> 30:31.920] Okay, I am willing to compromise. [30:31.920 --> 30:32.920] And here's my compromise. [30:32.920 --> 30:38.160] Oh, we will allow the Americans to maintain their base here in Ecuador, as long as they [30:38.160 --> 30:43.760] allow Ecuador to maintain a base in Florida. [30:43.760 --> 30:44.760] We thought this was crazy. [30:44.760 --> 30:51.440] You're not going to have soldiers from a foreign country with a base on our territory driving [30:51.440 --> 30:57.000] around in their own jeeps with their own flag in their own uniforms, like their occupiers [30:57.000 --> 30:58.000] in our country. [30:58.000 --> 30:59.800] Like they own the place. [30:59.800 --> 31:06.440] But we never think that this is what we expect every other country to accept from us. [31:06.440 --> 31:12.240] So just the reaction that we had to President Correa's idea, which was to think, what a [31:12.240 --> 31:19.600] crazy wacko, really shows you how we've lost touch with the way other people see the military [31:19.600 --> 31:23.680] presence of the United States on their territory. [31:23.680 --> 31:28.760] Stephen, I was trying to make a point before. [31:28.760 --> 31:31.680] So many of these things are anathema to the American people. [31:31.680 --> 31:36.400] You know, the notion that we should be destroying a democratically elected government in another [31:36.400 --> 31:37.400] country. [31:37.400 --> 31:39.000] That's hidden from us. [31:39.000 --> 31:40.000] It's done in secret. [31:40.000 --> 31:45.560] Obviously, it's done in secret because they don't want to stir up opposition in the very [31:45.560 --> 31:48.880] country that they're pulling this off in, and they don't want to stir up opposition [31:48.880 --> 31:49.880] right here. [31:49.880 --> 31:52.360] So some other fig leaf is employed. [31:52.360 --> 31:58.080] In the case of the Americans, we were told, oh, that this guy must have that, even though [31:58.080 --> 32:04.800] he's a Democrat, a democratically elected, he's going to be a go-communist and so forth. [32:04.800 --> 32:10.280] In Iran, and this is such a key point that I'd like you to speak to, in Iran, how do [32:10.280 --> 32:17.640] you buffalo an entire people into giving up such a precious thing that they all participated [32:17.640 --> 32:20.080] in and that they all want? [32:20.080 --> 32:22.480] How do you make them think that they don't want it? [32:22.480 --> 32:23.960] And there's a term called astroturfing. [32:23.960 --> 32:29.280] I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it's a way that you create what appears to [32:29.280 --> 32:31.520] be a grassroots movement, but it's plastic. [32:31.520 --> 32:32.520] It's artificial. [32:32.520 --> 32:37.600] Isn't that a technique that was employed in Iran in the early 50s? [32:37.600 --> 32:43.480] Now, you're getting to a point that I think is very important, and that is that the only [32:43.480 --> 32:51.320] reason we were able to overthrow the government of Iran in 1953 and the democratic government [32:51.320 --> 32:57.640] of Guatemala 10 months later, which we also overthrow, is that those governments were [32:57.640 --> 32:58.640] democratic. [32:58.640 --> 32:59.640] They were open. [32:59.640 --> 33:01.160] They had a free press. [33:01.160 --> 33:02.920] They had independent labor unions. [33:02.920 --> 33:05.120] They had student organizations. [33:05.120 --> 33:06.120] There were protests. [33:06.120 --> 33:08.000] Anybody could say what they wanted. [33:08.000 --> 33:14.840] Civil society was tolerated and encouraged, so the CIA took advantage of that openness [33:14.840 --> 33:18.800] and used it to crush democratic regimes. [33:18.800 --> 33:25.080] If the leaders of those regimes had been dictators, like we said they were, they wouldn't have [33:25.080 --> 33:26.080] had open society. [33:26.080 --> 33:28.400] They would have protected themselves. [33:28.400 --> 33:33.120] The only reason we were able to overthrow them is that they were democratic. [33:33.120 --> 33:35.440] Let me give you one wonderful example of this. [33:35.440 --> 33:41.880] In Guatemala in the early 1950s, the elected democratic government was carrying out a land [33:41.880 --> 33:48.160] reform which bothered the United Group Company and a number of other social programs. [33:48.160 --> 33:53.320] This really excited a lot of idealists from all over Latin America, and they started coming [33:53.320 --> 33:58.080] to Guatemala to watch what was happening there and see if they could get some ideas for their [33:58.080 --> 33:59.080] own country. [33:59.080 --> 34:05.720] One of these idealists who came to Guatemala in the early 1950s to watch this process unfold [34:05.720 --> 34:10.720] was a young Argentine doctor named Che Guevara. [34:10.720 --> 34:17.640] Che Guevara was actually in Guatemala when the U.S. CIA overthrew the democratic government [34:17.640 --> 34:18.640] there. [34:18.640 --> 34:22.800] He had to flee into the Mexican embassy, and finally some weeks later he was able to get [34:22.800 --> 34:24.160] back to Mexico. [34:24.160 --> 34:29.920] In Mexico he met Fidel Castro, who was planning his revolution in Cuba. [34:29.920 --> 34:34.520] So Castro was really interested in what had happened in Guatemala, and he kept asking [34:34.520 --> 34:36.920] Che Guevara, so what happened? [34:36.920 --> 34:38.680] What did the CIA do? [34:38.680 --> 34:40.640] What lessons can we learn from this? [34:40.640 --> 34:48.280] And Che told him the way the CIA carried this out is they took advantage of the fact that [34:48.280 --> 34:53.360] the government in Guatemala was democratic, so what that means for us is that as soon [34:53.360 --> 34:57.680] as we take over in Cuba, we have to impose a total dictatorship. [34:57.680 --> 35:03.000] No free press, no independent trade unions, no civic groups, no student organizations, [35:03.000 --> 35:07.600] because if we allow democracy, the CIA will come in and overthrow us. [35:07.600 --> 35:14.560] This is the lesson that we taught to an entire generation of rising leaders in Latin America. [35:14.560 --> 35:20.640] If you want to impose a program of social progress and reform, do not do it with democracy. [35:20.640 --> 35:25.440] Do it with dictatorship, because otherwise the CIA will come in and overthrow you. [35:25.440 --> 35:32.000] What a lesson this was to teach a whole generation and twist the history of a whole continent. [35:32.000 --> 35:37.840] We paid rent to crowds to convince people that there was a popular discontent with the [35:37.840 --> 35:42.680] democratically elected institutions that they just put into place and so forth. [35:42.680 --> 35:48.440] The main lesson is, Stephen, how can we be assured that this kind of surreptitious psychological [35:48.440 --> 35:54.640] operations are then not going to be learned by the American operatives who so successfully [35:54.640 --> 35:58.640] employ them overseas, and then turned around and used against us? [35:58.640 --> 36:01.280] What kind of assurances do we have? [36:01.280 --> 36:03.080] How can we protect ourselves from that? [36:03.080 --> 36:05.680] There doesn't seem to be very much oversight of these things. [36:05.680 --> 36:09.640] I don't know how journalists like you get to the bottom of it, but once you do, it's [36:09.640 --> 36:15.440] not man bites dog news, it's not on the front page, it's not being shouted from the rooftops. [36:15.440 --> 36:19.720] How can we protect ourselves to make sure that this technique then is not turned around [36:19.720 --> 36:21.200] and employed against us? [36:21.200 --> 36:26.400] As a very profound question, I think people like you and me are trying to do our best [36:26.400 --> 36:29.880] to bang our spoons on the eye chair. [36:29.880 --> 36:36.520] I think it's very important for us to realize that knowledge is power. [36:36.520 --> 36:43.040] We are eager to support interventions in foreign countries because we really don't understand [36:43.040 --> 36:44.360] what lies behind them. [36:44.360 --> 36:46.440] We don't have the information. [36:46.440 --> 36:51.280] We don't take the time or the effort to try to figure out what lies behind what our government [36:51.280 --> 36:52.280] is teaching us. [36:52.280 --> 36:56.160] I really think that the press is partly responsible for this. [36:56.160 --> 36:59.920] It's one of the reasons that ultimately I left the New York Times. [36:59.920 --> 37:08.520] I think sometimes the press develops this idea that America is a team, and the president [37:08.520 --> 37:11.640] is something like the manager of the team. [37:11.640 --> 37:17.760] When the team has a contest or conflict, the manager tells us what to do, and everybody [37:17.760 --> 37:20.480] has to play their role, and the press is part of that. [37:20.480 --> 37:21.880] This is totally wrong. [37:21.880 --> 37:25.400] The press is not supposed to be on anybody's team. [37:25.400 --> 37:30.880] We are supposed to be independent, so that's our job, and then I think the job of ordinary [37:30.880 --> 37:35.480] people who are reading what we're producing and listening and seeing what we're producing [37:35.480 --> 37:42.680] is to try to discriminate, to try to second-guess what you're hearing from people in power. [37:42.680 --> 37:48.280] Don't always assume that the motivations for which they're acting are the ones for which [37:48.280 --> 37:50.920] they claim to be acting. [37:50.920 --> 37:54.400] Well, Stephen, we could go on and on. [37:54.400 --> 38:00.000] You and I are both a couple of real talkers, I'll tell you that, but it's the quality of [38:00.000 --> 38:03.440] your work that is so important to get out there. [38:03.440 --> 38:08.560] I've been wanting to bring you and our listeners together for some time here on the radio side [38:08.560 --> 38:13.720] of INN, and I want to thank Randy and Debra so much for allowing us to go over. [38:13.720 --> 38:18.960] I hope that you guys feel that it was a worthwhile effort because you don't get this kind of [38:18.960 --> 38:19.960] information. [38:19.960 --> 38:24.440] Stephen, can we have you back on again when we can stretch out and talk a little more [38:24.440 --> 38:29.560] about this and so many other topics that you've also worked so hard to uncover and get the [38:29.560 --> 38:31.460] light of day on? [38:31.460 --> 38:35.360] I'd love to do it, and we'll be sure to start talking to you next time. [38:35.360 --> 38:36.360] That will be so great. [38:36.360 --> 38:41.280] Stephen, how can people who are interested in what they heard tonight and what they heard [38:41.280 --> 38:44.000] you say, how can they get some more information? [38:44.000 --> 38:48.360] Can you tell them where they can find some of your books and do you have a website or [38:48.360 --> 38:50.800] something that they can go to? [38:50.800 --> 38:59.280] I do, actually, so I have it at www.stevenkinser.com, so it's Stephen with a P-H and then K-I-N-Z-E-R. [38:59.280 --> 39:03.760] On that website, there are links to buy all my books, and my regular columns in The Guardian [39:03.760 --> 39:10.200] are all on there, and my other op-ed pieces, and various other photos of my wild adventures [39:10.200 --> 39:16.480] in bizarre countries in the world, so check it out and join us all in doing the project [39:16.480 --> 39:23.160] that you yourself are so vigorously promoting, trying to open the minds of the people of [39:23.160 --> 39:24.520] this great country. [39:24.520 --> 39:30.000] I do feel that although people in many countries are ignorant about the outside world, it doesn't [39:30.000 --> 39:35.880] really matter if the people in, let's say, Paraguay don't know much about Iran, it's [39:35.880 --> 39:42.240] too bad, but it won't really hurt Iran, but in America, where we have our ignorance paired [39:42.240 --> 39:48.240] with power, it's hugely important that we break out of that ignorance, because when [39:48.240 --> 39:54.160] we're ignorant, it can cause tremendous damage to the world and to our own country. [39:54.160 --> 39:58.920] It can cause death and destruction on a huge scale with the technology that we have today. [39:58.920 --> 40:00.640] Stephen, thank you so much. [40:00.640 --> 40:04.280] I will be in touch with you, maybe do a little pre-interview too, because I want to catch [40:04.280 --> 40:07.360] up on some of the newer things that you've been up to. [40:07.360 --> 40:10.320] Debra and Randy, thank you so much for allowing us to go over. [40:10.320 --> 40:15.460] I am sure you'll agree that it was worthwhile, because you don't get the kind of information [40:15.460 --> 40:19.560] that we get from somebody who worked so hard to uncover it, like we did tonight from Stephen [40:19.560 --> 40:20.560] Kinzer. [40:20.560 --> 40:21.560] Thank you so much. [40:21.560 --> 40:27.160] And thank you both, this has been very informative, and people really need to know what our government [40:27.160 --> 40:34.200] has been doing over the last century, at least intervening in foreign governments and overthrowing [40:34.200 --> 40:40.680] democratically elected governments, destroying countries, and it's just been horrible. [40:40.680 --> 40:43.600] In our name and with our tax dollars as well. [40:43.600 --> 40:44.600] Exactly. [40:44.600 --> 40:47.000] Well, thank you all, and I'm going to hand it back over to you. [40:47.000 --> 40:48.000] Thanks a lot. [40:48.000 --> 40:51.880] I'll be in touch, thank you so much, and we hope to have you back on soon, okay? [40:51.880 --> 40:52.880] Thank you, Stephen. [40:52.880 --> 40:53.880] I'll look forward to it. [40:53.880 --> 40:54.880] Thank you. [40:54.880 --> 40:55.880] Thank you, Randy. [40:55.880 --> 40:56.880] Thank you very much. [40:56.880 --> 40:57.880] You are most welcome. [40:57.880 --> 40:58.880] Okay. [40:58.880 --> 40:59.880] Yes. [40:59.880 --> 41:00.880] I'm going to... [41:00.880 --> 41:05.680] Tom Kiley signing out, and thank you all who listened in tonight, expecting to hear [41:05.680 --> 41:06.680] Randy and Debra. [41:06.680 --> 41:10.240] I'm sorry that we ran a little over, but I hope that you liked it, and I'm turning the [41:10.240 --> 41:11.280] floor back over to them. [41:11.280 --> 41:13.000] It's Miller time for me right now. [41:13.000 --> 41:14.000] Right. [41:14.000 --> 41:15.000] Okay, Tom, good deal. [41:15.000 --> 41:16.000] Thanks a lot. [41:16.000 --> 41:17.000] Good night. [41:17.000 --> 41:18.000] Thanks for joining us tonight. [41:18.000 --> 41:19.000] Okay. [41:19.000 --> 41:20.000] Thank you. [41:20.000 --> 41:21.000] All right. [41:21.000 --> 41:25.560] That was Tom Kiley, listeners from INN World Report, INN World Report radio. [41:25.560 --> 41:31.160] We run INN World Report headline news at the beginnings of all our shows here, and he is [41:31.160 --> 41:38.440] a host here, Tuesdays and Thursdays from 6 to 8 Central Time, and he always has very [41:38.440 --> 41:44.000] interesting guests, very informative guests, and there was an issue earlier this evening. [41:44.000 --> 41:49.640] I guess somebody got their time zones crossed, and so the guests came on an hour late, so [41:49.640 --> 41:56.600] we decided to let them continue on to our show because there's such very crucial information [41:56.600 --> 41:57.600] here. [41:57.600 --> 42:01.480] Actually, I wanted to listen. [42:01.480 --> 42:03.960] You just wanted to listen. [42:03.960 --> 42:11.520] I lived through these times, and for the most part, the information I got was the standard [42:11.520 --> 42:12.520] propaganda. [42:12.520 --> 42:13.520] Right. [42:13.520 --> 42:21.880] But even at the time, I was still in high school or just out of school, and I looked [42:21.880 --> 42:27.240] at this, and I kept thinking, something's wrong here. [42:27.240 --> 42:32.520] They're not telling us everything, even back then, and the more I found out about it, the [42:32.520 --> 42:37.960] uglier it got, and the more ashamed I got. [42:37.960 --> 42:44.360] I have spent time in foreign countries, and there were times I was embarrassed to be an [42:44.360 --> 42:52.560] American, so I'm real pleased to hear that kind of information out, and I hope that Americans [42:52.560 --> 42:55.960] find themselves somewhat humbled. [42:55.960 --> 43:03.040] I expect the next few years will be a very humbling experience for the people of America. [43:03.040 --> 43:04.040] Indeed. [43:04.040 --> 43:08.640] Well, we're about to go into a break, and so I just wanted to open up the phone lines [43:08.640 --> 43:09.640] now. [43:09.640 --> 43:15.240] Callers, if you'd like to call in, 512-646-1984. [43:15.240 --> 43:19.640] You're welcome to comment on the previous topic or open up a new topic, so please go [43:19.640 --> 43:21.840] ahead and call in 512-646-1984. [43:21.840 --> 43:29.520] We've got about another hour and 15 minutes here, so we'll be taking your calls and discussing [43:29.520 --> 43:32.360] legal issues. [43:32.360 --> 43:35.560] We do have a caller, Aaron, on the line, Aaron from Texas. [43:35.560 --> 43:40.640] We'll be taking Aaron's call first, and the rest of y'all go ahead and call in. [43:40.640 --> 43:41.640] We'll be right back. [43:41.640 --> 44:00.120] This is the Rule of Law, Randy Kelton and Deborah Stevens here on Rule of Law Radio. [44:00.120 --> 44:02.880] Corrupt markets are taking hit after hit. [44:02.880 --> 44:05.680] Corrupt bankers are choking on subprime debt. [44:05.680 --> 44:12.080] The Fed is busy printing dollars, dollars, and more dollars to bail out Wall Street banks [44:12.080 --> 44:13.920] and the U.S. car industry. [44:13.920 --> 44:19.480] As investors scramble for safety in the metals in the face of a further devaluation of the [44:19.480 --> 44:22.680] dollar, the price of silver will only increase. [44:22.680 --> 44:27.840] Some of the world's leading financial analysts believe that silver is one of the world's [44:27.840 --> 44:33.800] most important commodities with unparalleled investment opportunities for the future. [44:33.800 --> 44:41.120] Now is the time to buy silver before it heads for $75 an ounce, and the yellow metal roars [44:41.120 --> 44:45.200] back past $1,000 an ounce to new highs. [44:45.200 --> 44:54.440] Call Maximus Holdings now at 407-608-5430 to find out how you can turn your IRA and [44:54.440 --> 44:59.760] 401K into a solid investment, silver, without any penalties for early withdrawal. [44:59.760 --> 45:05.160] Even if you don't have a retirement account yet, we have fantastic investment opportunities [45:05.160 --> 45:06.160] for you. [45:06.160 --> 45:32.800] Call Maximus Holdings at 407-608-5430 for more information. [45:32.800 --> 45:52.680] Without further ado, thank you. [45:52.680 --> 46:12.880] All right, watching the sparks fly here on Rule of Law Radio, ruleoflawradio.com. [46:12.880 --> 46:17.240] Okay, again, sorry for any inconveniences listeners. [46:17.240 --> 46:21.600] Hopefully you enjoyed the last few segments with Tom, Kylie and Stephen Kinzer. [46:21.600 --> 46:26.800] All right, we are now going to our first caller, Aaron from Texas, and Aaron, you wanted to [46:26.800 --> 46:32.440] comment and question on what happened on Monday regarding the police and the blood and the [46:32.440 --> 46:36.440] breathalyzers and all this stuff, and you had some other issues as well, so go ahead, [46:36.440 --> 46:37.440] Aaron. [46:37.440 --> 46:42.840] Well, there's a lot of law surrounding this right now, and I read some of the code today, [46:42.840 --> 46:48.600] and I just, you know, I'm a little concerned about the amount that our fourth minute of [46:48.600 --> 46:53.720] rights are being just completely squashed in this area, and particularly in the area [46:53.720 --> 46:58.320] of vehicles and travel and this kind of, I just can't wait for somebody to win a right [46:58.320 --> 47:06.400] to travel case, but I guess here's one of my questions, and we'll just start here. [47:06.400 --> 47:12.200] At what point do you have to give consent for an officer to search your vehicle, or [47:12.200 --> 47:16.400] at what point can he just decide he wants to search your vehicle? [47:16.400 --> 47:21.840] Because I know there's an automobile exception to the Fourth Amendment, and I think that [47:21.840 --> 47:26.640] originally started out as they're afraid the evidence is going to drive away, and so [47:26.640 --> 47:32.080] they need to get in and look at it really quickly, but that's since, from what I understand, [47:32.080 --> 47:37.120] that's since been extended so that now they can do it just for the heck of it. [47:37.120 --> 47:39.680] I don't know where you draw the line, and that's what I'm curious about. [47:39.680 --> 47:41.880] No, they can't do it just for the heck of it. [47:41.880 --> 47:44.200] They have to have probable cause. [47:44.200 --> 47:50.760] Now they can search that part of the vehicle that you could sit in the driver's seat and [47:50.760 --> 47:55.320] reach and secure a weapon. [47:55.320 --> 47:58.440] They can search that for their safety's sake. [47:58.440 --> 48:04.840] That does not include opening an ashtray or, you know, places where... [48:04.840 --> 48:06.600] Or the trunk. [48:06.600 --> 48:08.400] Or the trunk. [48:08.400 --> 48:12.360] Or some compartment in the backseat that you couldn't reach if you were sitting in the [48:12.360 --> 48:13.360] driver's seat. [48:13.360 --> 48:19.240] Now, if you're concerned about an officer searching your vehicle, when he asks you to [48:19.240 --> 48:22.960] exit the vehicle, roll up the windows and lock the doors. [48:22.960 --> 48:27.920] If he wants them open, he can get a warrant. [48:27.920 --> 48:28.920] Okay. [48:28.920 --> 48:31.920] That makes sense. [48:31.920 --> 48:32.920] And they would need a warrant to... [48:32.920 --> 48:37.280] I mean, I guess if they arrest you and they impound the vehicle, they can do... [48:37.280 --> 48:40.360] They could take an inventory of everything in the vehicle. [48:40.360 --> 48:44.320] Problem is, is they never take an accurate inventory. [48:44.320 --> 48:47.360] And they use that as an excuse to search. [48:47.360 --> 48:52.680] So if they don't have an accurate inventory, you get to go after them for it anyway. [48:52.680 --> 48:56.560] Because they didn't really do an inventory, they just did a search under the excuse of [48:56.560 --> 48:57.560] an inventory. [48:57.560 --> 48:58.560] Yes. [48:58.560 --> 49:04.600] But until we actually go after them, they're going to do anything they want to. [49:04.600 --> 49:08.760] That's why I kind of feel like the policy is right now, they're just going to walk around [49:08.760 --> 49:09.760] and do whatever they want. [49:09.760 --> 49:15.280] I've got people telling me that the legal definition is probable cause, and people telling [49:15.280 --> 49:21.040] me that the legal definition is reasonable police or reasonable suspicion. [49:21.040 --> 49:23.600] And I just keep backing up saying, well, where do we draw the line here? [49:23.600 --> 49:28.360] There has to be some point that we say, this is really what's required. [49:28.360 --> 49:30.960] And I can't find a lot of that in law. [49:30.960 --> 49:31.960] I can't find this... [49:31.960 --> 49:37.920] I mean, I guess it's common law, it's case law, that's making a lot of these determinations. [49:37.920 --> 49:39.920] I really prefer statute. [49:39.920 --> 49:42.560] It goes to objective reasonableness. [49:42.560 --> 49:48.760] But at this point, we don't have any objectively reasonable judges. [49:48.760 --> 49:55.480] They're just there to crank out the dollar, so heck, it didn't make any difference. [49:55.480 --> 50:01.400] At the meeting the other night, I had this nice statement prepared for them, but I didn't [50:01.400 --> 50:02.400] get to use that. [50:02.400 --> 50:05.040] All they could do is ask a question. [50:05.040 --> 50:07.680] But that's what I wanted to focus them on. [50:07.680 --> 50:10.000] Why are you wasting all this time? [50:10.000 --> 50:11.520] Why are you even focusing on this? [50:11.520 --> 50:14.680] It doesn't matter. [50:14.680 --> 50:16.060] They convict everybody. [50:16.060 --> 50:19.960] You need more evidence when they convict everybody? [50:19.960 --> 50:21.320] What's the point? [50:21.320 --> 50:25.160] Unless we get courts back, it doesn't do any good to convict everybody because they go [50:25.160 --> 50:29.680] in there and the prosecutor runs them through the deal, they pay a little money, they're [50:29.680 --> 50:32.040] back out on the street. [50:32.040 --> 50:38.280] Courts do their job, get them in there, but the courts don't do the job to follow up. [50:38.280 --> 50:46.520] So poking needles in people to get more evidence when you've got 99.6% conviction rate, why? [50:46.520 --> 50:54.280] Well, yeah, and we asked that woman from the Mothers Against Drunk Driving what that was [50:54.280 --> 50:55.280] all about. [50:55.280 --> 51:01.200] And, Randy, you pointed that out to her when we interviewed her after the event on Monday, [51:01.200 --> 51:06.080] and she was saying, well, you know, part of the reason is because they may have that high [51:06.080 --> 51:10.720] of a conviction rate, but in drunk driving cases, they don't have that high of a conviction [51:10.720 --> 51:18.920] rate for drunk driving because the charges end up getting dealt down to reckless driving [51:18.920 --> 51:23.840] or something like that, and so the people never go down for driving drunk. [51:23.840 --> 51:28.600] But I don't think that the reason for that is because the prosecutor doesn't have enough [51:28.600 --> 51:34.320] evidence to actually nail him for drunk driving, and so we've got to have blood now in order [51:34.320 --> 51:40.000] to have the evidence so that these cases don't get dealt down to reckless driving. [51:40.000 --> 51:43.480] I mean, I'm sorry, that just doesn't add up to me. [51:43.480 --> 51:48.680] And it's very unfortunate, too, because I feel sorry for these people who have lost [51:48.680 --> 51:54.680] family members or they know people who have lost family members, all right, and they believe [51:54.680 --> 52:00.280] in their cause, and, you know, just like me with 9-11, I feel for those people, and I've [52:00.280 --> 52:05.800] made it a mission to do something about it, so I understand where they're coming from, [52:05.800 --> 52:11.040] but the thing is, the thing that's really the most sad about all of this is that what [52:11.040 --> 52:18.120] these people are advocating is not going to help their cause at all. [52:18.120 --> 52:20.440] All it's going to do is hurt more people. [52:20.440 --> 52:21.440] Exactly. [52:21.440 --> 52:28.360] And, you know, if you're not doing, if what you're doing is not working, it doesn't help [52:28.360 --> 52:29.360] to do it harder. [52:29.360 --> 52:32.480] I mean, that's a human characteristic. [52:32.480 --> 52:35.560] If what we're doing is not working, well, we'll try it harder. [52:35.560 --> 52:37.400] Maybe it'll work this time. [52:37.400 --> 52:45.300] We tend not to back up and say, well, maybe our whole premise is skewed. [52:45.300 --> 52:48.080] Maybe there are other factors. [52:48.080 --> 52:56.600] We use our logic and reason, and we logically reason that if we punish someone hard enough, [52:56.600 --> 52:58.360] then they will change their behavior. [52:58.360 --> 53:03.560] Well, in some cases that works, and in some it doesn't. [53:03.560 --> 53:08.160] Doesn't work with cigarettes, it doesn't work with drugs, and it doesn't work with alcohol. [53:08.160 --> 53:10.760] It doesn't work with prostitution. [53:10.760 --> 53:12.560] Prostitution should give them a clue. [53:12.560 --> 53:14.720] It's been around forever. [53:14.720 --> 53:21.640] Nothing any country has ever done has gotten rid of it. [53:21.640 --> 53:25.000] You should learn something from that. [53:25.000 --> 53:26.480] Just knock it off. [53:26.480 --> 53:31.920] Do like a lot of these Asian countries do, give them green cards to keep them from spreading [53:31.920 --> 53:36.800] disease and quit trying to fix what can't be fixed. [53:36.800 --> 53:44.120] I mean, that's like saying, okay, people, you only get to breathe every third breath. [53:44.120 --> 53:48.440] These things are the way human beings are, we're not going to change that. [53:48.440 --> 53:55.200] Better we treat the symptom and try to improve the symptom than try to beat people up with [53:55.200 --> 54:00.600] a set of tools that just does not have the effect they intend. [54:00.600 --> 54:04.080] This taking blood is nonsense. [54:04.080 --> 54:10.040] That's why I had a lot of issues that I'd like to ask questions about, but what I really [54:10.040 --> 54:20.120] wanted to be able to do was tell everybody listening that we have a 99.6% conviction [54:20.120 --> 54:22.640] rate. [54:22.640 --> 54:28.440] I suspect that tensed up a lot of folks when they heard that. [54:28.440 --> 54:34.840] It certainly tense the chief because I nailed him with it before he got in the meeting. [54:34.840 --> 54:38.200] Oh no, no, it can't be that high. [54:38.200 --> 54:39.200] Oh yeah, it is. [54:39.200 --> 54:40.480] Here's my statistician here. [54:40.480 --> 54:44.600] He said, ask him, what is the average conviction rate? [54:44.600 --> 54:56.160] And he said, well, yeah, it's about 99% and frankly, the chief seemed to be stunned. [54:56.160 --> 55:05.920] He was really taken aback and I was hoping that the people listening would be taken aback, [55:05.920 --> 55:11.880] especially that NAACP or whichever one she was with. [55:11.880 --> 55:13.880] ACLU, Randy. [55:13.880 --> 55:15.840] ACLU, same difference. [55:15.840 --> 55:21.840] They're both public relations agencies for the attorneys and I think she was the most [55:21.840 --> 55:23.840] worthless one up there. [55:23.840 --> 55:29.280] Aaron, you said you had some more comments also, right? [55:29.280 --> 55:37.440] Well, I guess just coming back to the driving and the breathalyzer thing, as I understand [55:37.440 --> 55:41.680] and I read the code, refusing a breathalyzer results in an automatic suspension of your [55:41.680 --> 55:49.800] license to 180 days starting 40 days after the date of the event unless you have any [55:49.800 --> 55:55.200] prior run-ins with law enforcement relating to alcohol at all. [55:55.200 --> 56:00.480] And if you have anything, and that doesn't mean conviction, you have anything, any notes [56:00.480 --> 56:05.760] on your file, I guess, that they pull up in their car, then it's a two-year suspension [56:05.760 --> 56:08.280] instead. [56:08.280 --> 56:12.720] And that doesn't mean that's not reliant on conviction or anything, that's just automatic [56:12.720 --> 56:13.720] if you refuse. [56:13.720 --> 56:19.160] But I did, in reading the code, learn that there's a hearing that you can go to and you [56:19.160 --> 56:24.200] can argue this suspension and they'll postpone the suspension until the hearing and things [56:24.200 --> 56:25.200] like that. [56:25.200 --> 56:31.560] And the interesting thing that I saw in the hearing was there's four things that come [56:31.560 --> 56:36.040] into question at the hearing, you know, did you refuse is one of them. [56:36.040 --> 56:42.880] But one of them is did reasonable suspicion or probable cause exist to stop you in the [56:42.880 --> 56:45.640] first place? [56:45.640 --> 56:50.800] Which I was impressed that that is actually in there, because if you're driving along [56:50.800 --> 56:58.440] and I would expect that this is a DUI checkpoint question right here, since this is so relevant, [56:58.440 --> 57:04.360] if you go up to a DUI checkpoint and you refuse a breathalyzer and they suspend your license, [57:04.360 --> 57:08.200] then you could go and have your administrative hearing and the very first point they have [57:08.200 --> 57:13.800] to prove is that reasonable suspicion or probable cause existed to stop you in the first place. [57:13.800 --> 57:16.520] Not at a checkpoint. [57:16.520 --> 57:19.880] Not if they stop everyone. [57:19.880 --> 57:24.200] I'm sorry, I don't think those checkpoints are constitutional. [57:24.200 --> 57:29.160] The constitution doesn't say that it's okay to search without a warrant as long as they [57:29.160 --> 57:30.360] search everybody. [57:30.360 --> 57:33.040] I'm sorry, that just does not fly. [57:33.040 --> 57:40.040] But the Supreme Court has ruled that if the police stop everyone equally and don't single [57:40.040 --> 57:46.880] anyone out for special treatment, they can do the stops like the driver's license check. [57:46.880 --> 57:50.760] Well, I'm sorry, that's unconstitutional, so we're just going to have to bring it back [57:50.760 --> 57:56.160] to the Supreme Court again, because the Fourth Amendment says they have to have a warrant. [57:56.160 --> 57:59.000] It doesn't say that the cops can search everybody. [57:59.000 --> 58:06.180] Well, they're not searching, they're just looking at the person and trying to determine [58:06.180 --> 58:08.360] if they have probable cause. [58:08.360 --> 58:10.520] I'm sorry, that doesn't fly. [58:10.520 --> 58:11.520] That does not fly. [58:11.520 --> 58:14.440] They don't get to do that. [58:14.440 --> 58:19.480] They get to watch you drive down the road, and if you weave or whatever, then they can [58:19.480 --> 58:20.480] have probable cause. [58:20.480 --> 58:25.840] They don't get to pull everyone over and look at you and decide if they think they may determine [58:25.840 --> 58:26.840] probable cause. [58:26.840 --> 58:31.120] That's still a search, because otherwise they would have no reason to stop you at all. [58:31.120 --> 58:36.040] I totally disagree, so we're just going to have to bring it back into the courts. [58:36.040 --> 58:39.200] All right, Aaron, we're going to break. [58:39.200 --> 58:40.200] Do you have anything else first? [58:40.200 --> 58:41.800] Do you want to stay on to the other side? [58:41.800 --> 58:44.160] We've got Jim from Texas and some others. [58:44.160 --> 58:45.400] I've got one more point. [58:45.400 --> 58:46.400] Okay, one more point. [58:46.400 --> 58:47.400] Aaron, stay on the line. [58:47.400 --> 58:52.920] We've got Jim and others, callers 512-646-1984. [58:52.920 --> 59:21.960] We'll be right back. [01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:44.440] All right, we're chatting down, Babylon. [01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:48.320] This is the rule of law, ruleoflawradio.com. [01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:51.680] All right, we are here with Aaron from Texas. [01:00:51.680 --> 01:00:55.800] We've got another Aaron from Texas that's also called in, and Jim from Texas. [01:00:55.800 --> 01:01:00.760] Jim, you're up next after Aaron number one, and then we'll go to Aaron number two after [01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:01.760] Jim. [01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:02.760] Okay, so go ahead, Aaron number one. [01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:06.040] You said you had one more question for us. [01:01:06.040 --> 01:01:12.480] Well, just finishing off that point real quick, my statement is that the administrative hearings [01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:18.600] suggest that they have to prove four things, or that you can disprove them on four counts, [01:01:18.600 --> 01:01:23.640] one of which is that they did not have probable cause for the stop. [01:01:23.640 --> 01:01:27.720] It doesn't say they did not have probable cause for the stop if they needed probable [01:01:27.720 --> 01:01:34.800] cause, so I'm hoping that they wouldn't be able to dismiss it based on the fact that [01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:42.320] it specifically states in Texas law, not in federal law or anything like that, but it [01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:47.200] specifically states in federal law that they have to have probable cause or reasonable [01:01:47.200 --> 01:01:54.720] suspicion for the stop arrest, so I'm hoping that that would work, but maybe it wouldn't. [01:01:54.720 --> 01:01:57.160] Don't think it will. [01:01:57.160 --> 01:02:05.920] That particular piece of federal law is not going to migrate, because we have laws establishing [01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:09.760] the Constitution would apply, but not necessarily the federal statute. [01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:12.320] No, no, state statute. [01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:18.160] I'm saying the federal statute, the federal Constitution would apply to the state, but [01:02:18.160 --> 01:02:25.000] not necessarily a federal statute apply to the state, only if the state had no statute [01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:28.040] addressing the issue. [01:02:28.040 --> 01:02:34.000] As long as the state statute didn't violate the Constitution, the federal statutes won't [01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:38.080] really be in effect, won't have an effect. [01:02:38.080 --> 01:02:42.520] There's only one more thing, and that's just something I wanted to share. [01:02:42.520 --> 01:02:49.960] At the very bottom of that area of transportation code, it says that if a criminal charge result [01:02:49.960 --> 01:02:54.560] or comes out of this stop where your license gets suspended because you refuse to press [01:02:54.560 --> 01:03:00.200] a license, if the criminal charge comes out of it and you are acquitted, then the suspension [01:03:00.200 --> 01:03:07.400] goes away as well, so I just wanted to put that out there, and I don't know, I suppose [01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:11.040] if you're going to get your license suspended, you should really shoot for that criminal [01:03:11.040 --> 01:03:13.720] charge, so you can get your license back. [01:03:13.720 --> 01:03:22.960] Yeah, if you get a, if you get, yeah, that's one of the things that I consider to be unconstitutional. [01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:31.600] They're punishing you for exercising a right, and claiming to restrict a privilege when [01:03:31.600 --> 01:03:35.960] the privilege is not a privilege, it's a right. [01:03:35.960 --> 01:03:41.960] I have a problem with that, but that goes back to the right to drive issue. [01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:42.960] Right to travel. [01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:43.960] Right to travel. [01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:54.640] There are other ways of dealing with this, other than calling driving a privilege, just [01:03:54.640 --> 01:03:59.680] other more reasonable ways of handling it, and I'd like to see them do that, but it's [01:03:59.680 --> 01:04:02.480] not a place I'm going to go yet. [01:04:02.480 --> 01:04:06.320] I will get to the driving issue, I just haven't yet. [01:04:06.320 --> 01:04:10.080] All right, well that was all my stuff. [01:04:10.080 --> 01:04:11.080] I appreciate your time, guys. [01:04:11.080 --> 01:04:13.200] All right, thank you, Aaron. [01:04:13.200 --> 01:04:15.520] Okay, that's Aaron from Texas. [01:04:15.520 --> 01:04:19.000] All right, we are going to go now to Jim from Texas. [01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:20.720] Jim, thanks for calling in. [01:04:20.720 --> 01:04:23.720] What's on your mind tonight? [01:04:23.720 --> 01:04:24.720] Jim? [01:04:24.720 --> 01:04:25.720] Okay. [01:04:25.720 --> 01:04:26.720] Hello, is that me? [01:04:26.720 --> 01:04:27.720] There he is. [01:04:27.720 --> 01:04:28.720] What's on your mind tonight, Jim? [01:04:28.720 --> 01:04:29.720] Okay. [01:04:29.720 --> 01:04:40.080] Well, I called out another Jim, and then they queued me up, but anyway, yeah, I was calling [01:04:40.080 --> 01:04:45.520] to ask Randy about a speeding citation. [01:04:45.520 --> 01:04:53.600] I had gotten one through a little town called Santa Ana on my way from Abilene to Austin. [01:04:53.600 --> 01:04:59.280] Randy, do you recall the email on that? [01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:00.280] No. [01:05:00.280 --> 01:05:06.080] Abilene to Austin, I've got a couple on speeding recently. [01:05:06.080 --> 01:05:12.920] Well, you had sent me a returning mail. [01:05:12.920 --> 01:05:22.560] It was an attachment for a, I'm trying to think what it was now, something about the [01:05:22.560 --> 01:05:23.560] appearance. [01:05:23.560 --> 01:05:27.000] Yeah, how long ago did you get the ticket? [01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:30.000] It was a week ago today. [01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.800] Have you been to the court yet? [01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:33.800] No. [01:05:33.800 --> 01:05:42.640] Actually, the first email I got back from you, I don't know how it was worded now, but [01:05:42.640 --> 01:05:47.080] anyway, I thought you were telling me that I didn't have to appear, and I sent an email [01:05:47.080 --> 01:05:51.000] back to you trying to clarify that. [01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:57.360] And it wasn't until the next evening that I got an email back from you saying, yes, [01:05:57.360 --> 01:06:05.240] you do need to appear, and you have the attachment with it, the form to fill out, to give to [01:06:05.240 --> 01:06:07.040] them and have filed there. [01:06:07.040 --> 01:06:09.040] I did appear. [01:06:09.040 --> 01:06:10.520] Good, good. [01:06:10.520 --> 01:06:11.520] You take that with you. [01:06:11.520 --> 01:06:18.160] The thing is, I emailed you, but I can't do that now. [01:06:18.160 --> 01:06:23.880] I got into it because the time was getting short because today was the last day I could [01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:24.880] hear it. [01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:31.000] It seems this little town, the courts only open two days a week, and that's on Wednesday [01:06:31.000 --> 01:06:32.000] and Thursday. [01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:37.720] And I got my citation on the last Thursday, which I was done with. [01:06:37.720 --> 01:06:39.840] What did the citation say? [01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:40.840] Pardon me? [01:06:40.840 --> 01:06:45.320] Did the citation order you to appear on a given day or time? [01:06:45.320 --> 01:06:46.320] Oh, no. [01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:51.080] It was one of those ten days, you know, one of the four ten days. [01:06:51.080 --> 01:06:52.080] No. [01:06:52.080 --> 01:06:53.080] Okay. [01:06:53.080 --> 01:06:54.080] Okay. [01:06:54.080 --> 01:06:57.600] So, didn't you go down there the next day and the court was closed? [01:06:57.600 --> 01:06:58.600] No. [01:06:58.600 --> 01:06:59.600] Oh. [01:06:59.600 --> 01:07:00.600] Oh, well. [01:07:00.600 --> 01:07:01.600] It was just a thought. [01:07:01.600 --> 01:07:02.600] I thought about it, but actually, no, I didn't. [01:07:02.600 --> 01:07:03.600] You know, actually, I've gotten until Sunday. [01:07:03.600 --> 01:07:04.600] I could go down there Sunday. [01:07:04.600 --> 01:07:05.600] Sunday's the end of the month. [01:07:05.600 --> 01:07:06.600] I could go down there Sunday. [01:07:06.600 --> 01:07:07.600] Sunday's the end of the month. [01:07:07.600 --> 01:07:08.600] Sunday's the end of the month. [01:07:08.600 --> 01:07:09.600] Sunday's the end of the month. [01:07:09.600 --> 01:07:16.600] Actually, no, I didn't, you know, actually, I've gotten until Sunday, I could go down there [01:07:16.600 --> 01:07:17.600] Sunday. [01:07:17.600 --> 01:07:18.600] Sunday's the end of the ten days. [01:07:18.600 --> 01:07:19.600] Actually, you have until Monday. [01:07:19.600 --> 01:07:20.600] Oh, do I? [01:07:20.600 --> 01:07:21.600] Until Monday? [01:07:21.600 --> 01:07:22.600] Yeah. [01:07:22.600 --> 01:07:23.600] The Monday after. [01:07:23.600 --> 01:07:30.240] But, unfortunately, I actually only had three days in reality to appear because they're [01:07:30.240 --> 01:07:31.240] open on Wednesday and Thursday. [01:07:31.240 --> 01:07:38.720] I had the Thursday, I got the ticket, and then I could have appeared yesterday or today. [01:07:38.720 --> 01:07:39.720] Okay. [01:07:39.720 --> 01:07:43.400] There are a lot of other things you can do with a ticket. [01:07:43.400 --> 01:07:52.240] A speeding ticket, actually, Eddie from Texas reminded me of something I had known. [01:07:52.240 --> 01:07:59.480] In the transportation code, the signs on the highway only apply to commercial drivers. [01:07:59.480 --> 01:08:01.480] It's very clear in that. [01:08:01.480 --> 01:08:02.480] You're right. [01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:05.480] But that's not the good one. [01:08:05.480 --> 01:08:06.480] Okay. [01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:19.360] The good one is 543.006, 543.005 transportation code says that the officer can't, after he [01:08:19.360 --> 01:08:27.960] makes an arrest, can release the accused if they sign the citation and agree to appear. [01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:36.960] 006 says the citation must state a date to appear at least ten days after the date of [01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:37.960] arrest. [01:08:37.960 --> 01:08:45.240] 006B says the citation shall state a date to appear before a magistrate. [01:08:45.240 --> 01:08:50.120] So I go down there, and I want to see the magistrate, and generally the judge is not [01:08:50.120 --> 01:08:51.120] there. [01:08:51.120 --> 01:08:52.120] That's what that... [01:08:52.120 --> 01:08:53.120] Well, you know, you're talking about that. [01:08:53.120 --> 01:09:00.360] I did call the court on Wednesday because they were open, and I was kind of trying to [01:09:00.360 --> 01:09:04.000] fill them out for when the magistrate would be there, if the magistrate was actually there [01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:08.360] every day, if they were open or not, because I didn't want to show up when the magistrate [01:09:08.360 --> 01:09:09.360] was there. [01:09:09.360 --> 01:09:11.920] Oh, you want to show up when the magistrate's there? [01:09:11.920 --> 01:09:12.920] Oh, I do. [01:09:12.920 --> 01:09:13.920] Okay. [01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:16.960] Oh, yeah, because he's not going to realize he's a magistrate. [01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:17.960] Okay. [01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:25.360] Well, then I messed up on that because, as it turns out, the citation says, you're hereby [01:09:25.360 --> 01:09:30.600] notified to appear before, and it has down there a blank for the judge, but it has a [01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:37.600] stamp that says, Court Clerk, Municipal Court, and on for ten days. [01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:38.600] Okay. [01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:45.720] When I called, I found out that the gal who's there, she's the judge and, of course, magistrate [01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:46.720] and court clerk. [01:09:46.720 --> 01:09:47.720] Okay. [01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:48.720] She's wrapped up in the war. [01:09:48.720 --> 01:09:49.720] Yeah. [01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:50.720] They all are. [01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:51.720] All judges are magistrates. [01:09:51.720 --> 01:09:52.720] Yeah. [01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:53.720] Right. [01:09:53.720 --> 01:09:54.720] But she's not the court clerk. [01:09:54.720 --> 01:09:55.720] She's a court clerk also. [01:09:55.720 --> 01:09:56.720] No, she's not. [01:09:56.720 --> 01:09:57.720] Huh? [01:09:57.720 --> 01:09:58.720] No, she isn't. [01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:01.720] Well, she is in Santa Ana. [01:10:01.720 --> 01:10:05.440] Well, that's interesting. [01:10:05.440 --> 01:10:07.720] I don't think she can be the court clerk. [01:10:07.720 --> 01:10:13.720] Well, that kind of struck me as odd, too, because as she specifically said, I said, [01:10:13.720 --> 01:10:21.720] well, are you the court clerk, and she said, well, I'm the municipal judge, and the court [01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:26.720] clerk said, they get both for the price of one. [01:10:26.720 --> 01:10:27.720] Oh. [01:10:27.720 --> 01:10:28.720] That was her statement. [01:10:28.720 --> 01:10:35.560] They might be able to do that as long as she doesn't hold two positions of emolument, [01:10:35.560 --> 01:10:41.040] but the thing is, is you appear before her in her capacity as a magistrate in demand [01:10:41.040 --> 01:10:47.760] and examining trial, and she's going to say, a what? [01:10:47.760 --> 01:10:49.960] She's not going to have a clue. [01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:51.240] Yeah. [01:10:51.240 --> 01:10:53.960] That's what you're required to do. [01:10:53.960 --> 01:10:55.720] That's what you agree to do. [01:10:55.720 --> 01:11:01.920] See, 1406 commands the arresting officer to take you directly to the nearest magistrate. [01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:08.240] Well, if he doesn't take you to the magistrate, in this particular case, he's authorized to [01:11:08.240 --> 01:11:14.320] allow you to sign that citation swearing that you will take yourself to the nearest magistrate. [01:11:14.320 --> 01:11:17.400] Don't say anything about a judge. [01:11:17.400 --> 01:11:23.120] The only thing a magistrate can do, the only two things a magistrate can do, they can marry [01:11:23.120 --> 01:11:29.560] some people, and if you don't take your fiancee with you, the only thing the judge can do [01:11:29.560 --> 01:11:37.000] as a magistrate is hold an examining trial, period. [01:11:37.000 --> 01:11:41.480] In Austin here, I went to the court, I want to see the magistrate, I got to the magistrate, [01:11:41.480 --> 01:11:43.280] I want to have an examining trial. [01:11:43.280 --> 01:11:46.560] Well, I can't do that, of course you can do that. [01:11:46.560 --> 01:11:47.560] You're the magistrate. [01:11:47.560 --> 01:11:55.520] Here, why he had to take these criminal complaints against the officer, because in 543-006 I [01:11:55.520 --> 01:12:06.960] was talking about, 008 says, if an officer violates a provision of 5005-007, he's guilty [01:12:06.960 --> 01:12:10.240] of misconduct and subject to removal from office. [01:12:10.240 --> 01:12:14.720] Right, so I can file a criminal complaint against the officer. [01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:15.720] Exactly. [01:12:15.720 --> 01:12:21.200] And I guess, maybe that's all I've got left since I did, because I was trying to buy time [01:12:21.200 --> 01:12:26.800] and I didn't realize that I wanted to be the magistrate, or I would have gone on down there. [01:12:26.800 --> 01:12:31.760] I was thinking I didn't want to show up in the magistrate's office, so I sent their little [01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:35.560] deal off and marked it for a jury trial. [01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:37.000] Where do you live at? [01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:38.000] What county? [01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:40.000] I live in Parker County. [01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:45.880] Oh, okay, it must be up there near where I'm from. [01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:51.640] What you need to do is petition for change of venue. [01:12:51.640 --> 01:12:59.920] That'll make it nuts, because you have a right to be tried in the county that you live in. [01:12:59.920 --> 01:13:04.720] And that goes to constitutional right. [01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:06.240] Nobody does that part. [01:13:06.240 --> 01:13:07.240] That's fun to do. [01:13:07.240 --> 01:13:10.760] But there's a lot more study I need to do on tickets. [01:13:10.760 --> 01:13:16.400] That's about, you know, the only other thing I have on tickets is the same thing I have [01:13:16.400 --> 01:13:26.360] in regular court, like ask for a financial statement from the judge, contract with the [01:13:26.360 --> 01:13:27.360] state. [01:13:27.360 --> 01:13:33.280] How about oath of office, being able to get the jurisdiction away from the court? [01:13:33.280 --> 01:13:39.720] Yeah, oath of office is always nice because it establishes contract. [01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:43.720] And let's see, I don't have to think about it, but there's a lot of things you can annoy [01:13:43.720 --> 01:13:47.240] them with from the discovery side. [01:13:47.240 --> 01:13:52.440] They're going to say you don't have a right to discovery in class C misdemeanor, but this [01:13:52.440 --> 01:13:54.520] doesn't exactly go to discovery. [01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:57.040] It goes to federal crop insurance. [01:13:57.040 --> 01:14:03.520] It goes to your duty to ensure that she actually is the judge she says she is. [01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:08.040] And you get to challenge the police officer to make sure he's actually a police officer [01:14:08.040 --> 01:14:10.240] and the prosecutor. [01:14:10.240 --> 01:14:16.160] There's some question about whether a prosecutor can prosecute a crime or not. [01:14:16.160 --> 01:14:23.400] Ed was, Eddie was bringing that up that it appears that municipal prosecutors can only [01:14:23.400 --> 01:14:32.360] prosecute violations of municipal ordinance and not state law, that the elected county [01:14:32.360 --> 01:14:35.720] attorney is supposed to do that. [01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:41.680] But it is, frankly, it's an issue I haven't had time to brief out, so. [01:14:41.680 --> 01:14:50.680] What happens, in my mind, I'm kind of questioning, what happens if you do file that misdemeanor [01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:56.800] charge as what it is, I think, against the officer? [01:14:56.800 --> 01:15:02.160] That makes him a, what do you call it, a trespasser, an ab initio. [01:15:02.160 --> 01:15:03.160] Ab initio, right. [01:15:03.160 --> 01:15:10.040] So does that in effect then negate his ability to even write the citation? [01:15:10.040 --> 01:15:17.240] That makes him not a credible person for the purpose of swearing to a criminal accusation. [01:15:17.240 --> 01:15:20.880] I have a motion to that effect. [01:15:20.880 --> 01:15:23.800] It needs some work on it, but it's what. [01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:30.280] And he's the only one that can swear to it since he's the only one there that. [01:15:30.280 --> 01:15:35.280] Well then you go after her when she doesn't act appropriately for violating a ministerial [01:15:35.280 --> 01:15:38.400] duty. [01:15:38.400 --> 01:15:42.160] Then you can sue her personally. [01:15:42.160 --> 01:15:49.000] Then you can sue the city because the officer used a motor vehicle in the process of the [01:15:49.000 --> 01:15:55.440] commission of the crime, and that bypasses the city's sovereign immunity. [01:15:55.440 --> 01:16:02.000] Okay, we've got a caller stacked up, we really need to move along. [01:16:02.000 --> 01:16:03.000] Okay. [01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:04.000] Thank you, Randy, I appreciate it. [01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:05.560] All right, thank you, Jim. [01:16:05.560 --> 01:16:08.880] Okay, yeah, we're about to hit a break here. [01:16:08.880 --> 01:16:11.080] We've got Aaron from Texas, Greg from Alabama. [01:16:11.080 --> 01:16:14.200] I think I know who that may be. [01:16:14.200 --> 01:16:17.640] And we also have Jerry from Oregon. [01:16:17.640 --> 01:16:24.960] So callers, if you'd like to call in 512-646-1984, we'll take Aaron from Texas as soon as we [01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:26.840] get back on the other side. [01:16:26.840 --> 01:16:32.720] This is the rule of law, ruleoflawradio.com. [01:16:32.720 --> 01:16:33.720] Please call in. [01:16:33.720 --> 01:16:59.960] We'll be right back. [01:16:59.960 --> 01:17:25.000] Again, we'll begin in three minutes. [01:17:25.000 --> 01:17:31.600] 3.83% for the last 17 years. Our investments are insurance and banking commission regulated. [01:17:31.600 --> 01:17:37.600] Our returns are assured by the largest insurance companies. Even qualified retirement plans [01:17:37.600 --> 01:17:44.600] such as 401Ks and IRAs are eligible for transfer. We charge absolutely no commissions. 100% [01:17:44.600 --> 01:17:51.880] of your investment goes to work for you. Please visit sleepwellinvestment.com or call Bill [01:17:51.880 --> 01:18:03.880] Shelbur at 817-975-2431. That's sleepwellinvestment.com or call 817-975-2431. [01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:34.880] Ain't gonna fool me with that same old trick again. I was blindsided but now I can see your plans. [01:18:34.880 --> 01:18:44.880] You put the fear in my pocket, took the money from my hands. Ain't gonna fool me with that same old trick again. [01:18:44.880 --> 01:19:02.880] Ain't gonna fool me with that same old trick again. [01:19:02.880 --> 01:19:12.880] Alright, we are back. The Rule of Law, Randy Kelton and Deborah Stevens here on ruleoflawradio.com. [01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:18.880] Some Three Shoes Posse music for you. Okay, we are going now to Aaron in Texas. Aaron, number two. [01:19:18.880 --> 01:19:23.880] Then we'll go to Greg in Alabama. I think I know who that is. And also Jerry from Oregon. [01:19:23.880 --> 01:19:26.880] Go ahead, Aaron. What's on your mind tonight? [01:19:26.880 --> 01:19:33.880] Oh, hey, Deborah. I just wanted to, I just wondered if you ever heard anything about the raw milk issue [01:19:33.880 --> 01:19:40.880] that was supposed to be, I guess they're trying to outlaw raw milk at all the farmers' markets [01:19:40.880 --> 01:19:44.880] where you have to go all the way to the farm in order to get it. [01:19:44.880 --> 01:19:47.880] That's done because of the FDA and the state. [01:19:47.880 --> 01:19:54.880] Well, from my understanding of what happened here in Austin, basically they got some threat notes. [01:19:54.880 --> 01:20:05.880] One of the farmers did or several of the farmers did and then apparently they, the health department came and harassed them. [01:20:05.880 --> 01:20:11.880] Now it's totally legal to sell raw milk for pets, livestock and such. [01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:21.880] And so what we wanted was we were trying to get a contract for them to be able to use where people would just have to sign [01:20:21.880 --> 01:20:25.880] that they are purchasing the raw milk to feed to their pets. [01:20:25.880 --> 01:20:31.880] But apparently, and that would be totally legal and there's nothing wrong with it at all, [01:20:31.880 --> 01:20:37.880] but apparently the farmers are just scared and they just don't want to bust the system. [01:20:37.880 --> 01:20:39.880] They just don't want to deal with it. [01:20:39.880 --> 01:20:43.880] So it's not a matter of them making it illegal. [01:20:43.880 --> 01:20:47.880] I mean, it's just a coercive technique. [01:20:47.880 --> 01:20:53.880] Okay. That's sad to hear, though, because we're drinking raw milk and stuff like that. [01:20:53.880 --> 01:20:59.880] And the other issue that I had was just as the second issue that I wanted to bring up, [01:20:59.880 --> 01:21:05.880] and I don't know if you've heard of L.B. Bork with PackinLaw.org, [01:21:05.880 --> 01:21:16.880] and he brings up the 14th Amendment issue and what actually makes you a U.S. citizen in here and everything. [01:21:16.880 --> 01:21:25.880] And he goes and explains, he goes over and explains the 14th Amendment in great detail. [01:21:25.880 --> 01:21:31.880] As far as even taking out the extroverbiage, that does not need to be there. [01:21:31.880 --> 01:21:39.880] And I just wanted to say, Section 2 of the 14th Amendment, and this is how the 14th Amendment works, [01:21:39.880 --> 01:21:45.880] and Section 2 of the 14th Amendment induces a voting American to deceitfully throw off [01:21:45.880 --> 01:21:49.880] the primary political allegiance to his rightful state government. [01:21:49.880 --> 01:21:52.880] This causes political allegiance to his government. [01:21:52.880 --> 01:21:54.880] This is addition and hence treason. [01:21:54.880 --> 01:21:58.880] His allegiance is then given to the de facto governmental system [01:21:58.880 --> 01:22:03.880] over his state or country's lawful government. [01:22:03.880 --> 01:22:10.880] He is then politically bound to the federal government, and he is now a resident, [01:22:10.880 --> 01:22:16.880] a man classified as a citizen of the state and is no longer a national of his country, [01:22:16.880 --> 01:22:19.880] but a national of the United States. [01:22:19.880 --> 01:22:21.880] And there's more to it. [01:22:21.880 --> 01:22:24.880] What are you reading? [01:22:24.880 --> 01:22:26.880] What are you reading? [01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:27.880] I am reading. [01:22:27.880 --> 01:22:30.880] He's going over the 14th Amendment. [01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:33.880] Oh, you're not reading the 14th Amendment. [01:22:33.880 --> 01:22:35.880] You're reading something else. [01:22:35.880 --> 01:22:38.880] I'm not actually reading the 14th Amendment. [01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:43.880] He's actually explaining what Section 2 of the 14th Amendment means. [01:22:43.880 --> 01:22:45.880] Well, let me read it to you. [01:22:45.880 --> 01:22:51.880] Representatives shall be appointed among the several states according to their representative numbers, [01:22:51.880 --> 01:22:56.880] counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians, not taxed. [01:22:56.880 --> 01:23:02.880] But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for president [01:23:02.880 --> 01:23:05.880] and vice president of the United States, representative of Congress, [01:23:05.880 --> 01:23:10.880] the executive and judicial officers of the state or members of the legislature thereof [01:23:10.880 --> 01:23:16.880] shall abide to any of the male inhabitants of such state being 21 years of age [01:23:16.880 --> 01:23:25.880] and citizens of the United States were in any way abridged except for participation in rebellion or other crime. [01:23:25.880 --> 01:23:31.880] The basis of representation therein shall be reduced to the proportion which the number of such male citizens [01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:37.880] shall bear to the whole number of male citizens 21 years of age in such state. [01:23:37.880 --> 01:23:41.880] What was he talking about? [01:23:41.880 --> 01:23:51.880] The way they wrote the 14th Amendment, they wrote it on a, let's say, pretty... [01:23:51.880 --> 01:23:54.880] Okay, look, we just lost Aaron. [01:23:54.880 --> 01:24:01.880] His phone line has been cutting in and out and he just dropped off the board. [01:24:01.880 --> 01:24:07.880] Aaron, maybe you can call back at another time so we can discuss this 14th Amendment issue further. [01:24:07.880 --> 01:24:10.880] Randy, do you have any other comments before we move on to the next caller? [01:24:10.880 --> 01:24:13.880] No, I was trying to figure that one out. [01:24:13.880 --> 01:24:17.880] It appears that what I'm reading in the 14th Amendment, [01:24:17.880 --> 01:24:26.880] that Section 2 just goes to who can vote for elected officials. [01:24:26.880 --> 01:24:30.880] And he was talking about how this goes to citizenship. [01:24:30.880 --> 01:24:35.880] This is kind of a problem I have sometimes with people who address these issues. [01:24:35.880 --> 01:24:38.880] I don't know who he is or what his backing is, [01:24:38.880 --> 01:24:45.880] but I would sure want to see the law behind it and not just hear his opinion about what it means. [01:24:45.880 --> 01:24:47.880] Okay. [01:24:47.880 --> 01:24:48.880] All right, let's move on. [01:24:48.880 --> 01:24:51.880] We've got Greg from Alabama. [01:24:51.880 --> 01:24:53.880] Greg, you there? [01:24:53.880 --> 01:24:54.880] Yeah. [01:24:54.880 --> 01:24:56.880] Hey, what's on your mind tonight? [01:24:56.880 --> 01:24:58.880] I have a couple of comments. [01:24:58.880 --> 01:25:03.880] And would this be Greg, our host for Agenda 21 Talk? [01:25:03.880 --> 01:25:05.880] Hillbilly Greg? [01:25:05.880 --> 01:25:06.880] Yeah, Hillbilly Greg. [01:25:06.880 --> 01:25:09.880] You got it. [01:25:09.880 --> 01:25:13.880] Hey, first of all, comment about the show that you guys did, [01:25:13.880 --> 01:25:16.880] the coverage of that meeting the other night. [01:25:16.880 --> 01:25:18.880] What town was that in? [01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:20.880] That was here in Austin. [01:25:20.880 --> 01:25:21.880] Yeah, okay. [01:25:21.880 --> 01:25:22.880] That was fantastic. [01:25:22.880 --> 01:25:27.880] I know I told you through Skype, Debra, but I just wanted to tell you on air. [01:25:27.880 --> 01:25:29.880] I mean, that was fantastic. [01:25:29.880 --> 01:25:31.880] Oh, thank you. [01:25:31.880 --> 01:25:38.880] The next issue, the caller that called in in reference to probable cause, Randy, [01:25:38.880 --> 01:25:43.880] I've got a special Lexus CD that I've had for some time. [01:25:43.880 --> 01:25:46.880] I need to get you a copy of this, or you may even have it. [01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:51.880] But anyway, it deals with all these traffic issues in Supreme Court. [01:25:51.880 --> 01:25:55.880] And apparently there's a couple of case sightings, [01:25:55.880 --> 01:26:01.880] one of them being on the checkpoint-type stops. [01:26:01.880 --> 01:26:07.880] The Supreme Court apparently likes the checkpoints for alcohol, [01:26:07.880 --> 01:26:09.880] but not for any other reason. [01:26:09.880 --> 01:26:11.880] And there's two case sightings. [01:26:11.880 --> 01:26:14.880] One in particular, if they have a checkpoint just checking for drugs, [01:26:14.880 --> 01:26:18.880] that is a violation of the Fourth Amendment, they say. [01:26:18.880 --> 01:26:23.880] And they use the city of Indianapolis versus Edmond for that. [01:26:23.880 --> 01:26:30.880] But for checkpoints for alcohol, the Supreme Court actually supports that, [01:26:30.880 --> 01:26:34.880] and they use the Michigan Department of State Police versus SIPs. [01:26:34.880 --> 01:26:37.880] I don't know if you had any further comment on that, [01:26:37.880 --> 01:26:43.880] but this checkpoint business happens to be one of those things I've researched a good bit, [01:26:43.880 --> 01:26:49.880] and I have a problem with them at some point. [01:26:49.880 --> 01:26:53.880] Yes, I've had a problem with the checkpoints, [01:26:53.880 --> 01:26:57.880] but in all honesty, when I think about it, [01:26:57.880 --> 01:27:03.880] when I step out from my side of the badge and step over on their side of the badge, [01:27:03.880 --> 01:27:14.880] I ask myself, how do I deal with this problem of people getting out on the highways in 3,000 pounds of iron [01:27:14.880 --> 01:27:25.880] and passing other people in 3,000 pounds of iron a foot away with a closure rate of 120 miles an hour? [01:27:25.880 --> 01:27:28.880] Well, taking away everyone's rights is certainly not the answer. [01:27:28.880 --> 01:27:30.880] Checkpoints are certainly not the answer. [01:27:30.880 --> 01:27:34.880] Well, I ask myself, how do I deal with this? [01:27:34.880 --> 01:27:39.880] Well, we've got to figure out a creative way of dealing with it without taking away everyone's rights. [01:27:39.880 --> 01:27:41.880] That's just all there is to it. [01:27:41.880 --> 01:27:47.880] And in general, you have to wait until someone is harmed, [01:27:47.880 --> 01:27:52.880] and we have plenty strict enough laws that we don't need all this. [01:27:52.880 --> 01:27:54.880] Sorry. [01:27:54.880 --> 01:27:58.880] I mean, life is dangerous. [01:27:58.880 --> 01:28:05.880] Yeah, I'm actually, a couple of years ago, I was actually on Randy's side on that, [01:28:05.880 --> 01:28:10.880] and I understand what you're saying, but I've grown to be on Deborah's side on that. [01:28:10.880 --> 01:28:13.880] Actually, I'm not on his side. [01:28:13.880 --> 01:28:17.880] I don't like the intrusiveness, [01:28:17.880 --> 01:28:25.880] but I also don't like all the people getting killed because someone's being careless or incautious. [01:28:25.880 --> 01:28:27.880] Well, checkpoints aren't going to solve that problem. [01:28:27.880 --> 01:28:30.880] Neither are forced blood withdrawals. [01:28:30.880 --> 01:28:32.880] That's just not going to solve the problem. [01:28:32.880 --> 01:28:38.880] I don't see the forced blood withdrawals as having anything to do with DUI convictions. [01:28:38.880 --> 01:28:44.880] However, I did like her idea about the breath, the little gadget you put on the car, [01:28:44.880 --> 01:28:48.880] and not because they have to be sober to drive the car, [01:28:48.880 --> 01:28:57.880] but because from my psychology side, that is a great pattern interruption and reinforcement. [01:28:57.880 --> 01:28:58.880] Oh, absolutely. [01:28:58.880 --> 01:29:02.880] You know, I'd love for them to mandate that. [01:29:02.880 --> 01:29:07.880] Me and Don Terry, we'd get on the bench really quick and create a device and get rich. [01:29:07.880 --> 01:29:16.880] Well, they've got a device to do that, and that's not unreasonable. [01:29:16.880 --> 01:29:18.880] I've heard about that. [01:29:18.880 --> 01:29:22.880] I wonder how robust that thing actually is. [01:29:22.880 --> 01:29:27.880] Well, what's unreasonable about it is what about people that have classic cars? [01:29:27.880 --> 01:29:33.880] Maybe they don't want to retrofit, or however you want to call it, [01:29:33.880 --> 01:29:41.880] their 1930s or 1940s or their 57 Chevy with all this stupidness of electronics. [01:29:41.880 --> 01:29:44.880] You don't physically damage the car in any way. [01:29:44.880 --> 01:29:46.880] Well, maybe they don't want to modify it at all. [01:29:46.880 --> 01:29:49.880] Well, maybe they shouldn't go out and kill our neighbors. [01:29:49.880 --> 01:29:50.880] Well, maybe they're not. [01:29:50.880 --> 01:29:51.880] Maybe they're not driving drunk. [01:29:51.880 --> 01:29:53.880] They shouldn't enforce that on everyone. [01:29:53.880 --> 01:29:54.880] We'll be right back. [01:29:54.880 --> 01:29:57.880] We'll be right back. [01:29:57.880 --> 01:30:02.880] Gold prices are at historic highs, and with the recent pullback, this is a great time to buy. [01:30:02.880 --> 01:30:06.880] With the value of the dollar, risks of inflation, geopolitical uncertainties, [01:30:06.880 --> 01:30:11.880] and instability in world financial systems, I see gold going up much higher. [01:30:11.880 --> 01:30:14.880] Hi, I'm Tim Fry at Roberts & Roberts Brokerage. [01:30:14.880 --> 01:30:18.880] Everybody should have some of their assets in investment-grade precious metals. [01:30:18.880 --> 01:30:22.880] At Roberts & Roberts Brokerage, you can buy gold, silver, and platinum with confidence [01:30:22.880 --> 01:30:27.880] from a brokerage that's specialized in the precious metals market since 1977. [01:30:27.880 --> 01:30:30.880] If you are new to precious metals, we will happily provide you with the information [01:30:30.880 --> 01:30:35.880] you need to make an informed decision whether or not you choose to purchase from us. [01:30:35.880 --> 01:30:39.880] Also, Roberts & Roberts Brokerage values your privacy and will always advise you [01:30:39.880 --> 01:30:42.880] in the event that we would be required to report any transaction. [01:30:42.880 --> 01:30:47.880] If you have gold, silver, or platinum you'd like to sell, we can convert it for immediate payment. [01:30:47.880 --> 01:30:51.880] Call us at 800-874-9760. [01:30:51.880 --> 01:30:58.880] We're Roberts & Roberts Brokerage, 800-874-9760. [01:30:58.880 --> 01:31:00.880] Yeah, who you want to chip? [01:31:00.880 --> 01:31:01.880] Who you take me for? [01:31:01.880 --> 01:31:02.880] Free Tony? [01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:03.880] Who you want to chip? [01:31:03.880 --> 01:31:04.880] I'm not free Tony. [01:31:04.880 --> 01:31:05.880] You can't chip me. [01:31:05.880 --> 01:31:07.880] All right. [01:31:07.880 --> 01:31:09.880] Don't let them chip you in the morning. [01:31:09.880 --> 01:31:10.880] Chip you in the evening. [01:31:10.880 --> 01:31:12.880] Put a chip in your body. [01:31:12.880 --> 01:31:14.880] And then when you go computer reading, [01:31:14.880 --> 01:31:16.880] you can't hide me from nobody. [01:31:16.880 --> 01:31:19.880] When I say chip in your mom, chip in your daddy. [01:31:19.880 --> 01:31:22.880] Chip in your grandpa and your grandma. [01:31:22.880 --> 01:31:24.880] Chip in me, chip in your baby. [01:31:24.880 --> 01:31:26.880] Chip in your family, whole family. [01:31:26.880 --> 01:31:28.880] Chip in your dad. [01:31:28.880 --> 01:31:29.880] Okay, rule of law. [01:31:29.880 --> 01:31:31.880] Rainy Kelton and Deborah Stevens. [01:31:31.880 --> 01:31:36.880] We're here with Greg Chapman, host from Agenda 21 Talk. [01:31:36.880 --> 01:31:37.880] Okay, go ahead, Greg. [01:31:37.880 --> 01:31:40.880] You said that you had to run, so go ahead. [01:31:40.880 --> 01:31:43.880] Yeah, there was actually something that I wanted to enter in. [01:31:43.880 --> 01:31:48.880] You know, I listened to that and I listened to the arguments from both sides. [01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:55.880] But there was one thing that wasn't introduced that I was wondering if one day I would actually be able to use it. [01:31:55.880 --> 01:31:56.880] And that is this. [01:31:56.880 --> 01:32:01.880] Now, the other night we had a doctor from Uchee Pines on our show. [01:32:01.880 --> 01:32:08.880] I've had some questions from people about Uchee Pines actually for the last couple of years. [01:32:08.880 --> 01:32:12.880] It's a small clinic in South Alabama. [01:32:12.880 --> 01:32:19.880] Trying to make a long story short, they actually have real data and proof of, [01:32:19.880 --> 01:32:29.880] and I don't know how many patients, but from studies where people's bodies can actually produce an alcohol level that will be higher, [01:32:29.880 --> 01:32:32.880] will actually register higher than the legal limit. [01:32:32.880 --> 01:32:34.880] They have proof of that. [01:32:34.880 --> 01:32:38.880] Under what circumstances? [01:32:38.880 --> 01:32:48.880] Now, I can't tell you the circumstances other than the fact that I went to a seminar where Dr. Agatha Thrash was holding the seminar. [01:32:48.880 --> 01:32:55.880] She's world-renowned, written tons and tons of books on natural healing and so on and so forth. [01:32:55.880 --> 01:33:03.880] And Uchee Pines, they spent three decades on gathering data for anything health-related. [01:33:03.880 --> 01:33:07.880] And all I can tell you is in one of her seminars she talked about that, [01:33:07.880 --> 01:33:14.880] because I had asked the question after she brought it up is couldn't you use that in a case to defend someone [01:33:14.880 --> 01:33:20.880] because the fact is that their machine isn't necessarily perfect then [01:33:20.880 --> 01:33:30.880] because there are some people who will naturally send that thing over, the legal limit, just from what's in their breath. [01:33:30.880 --> 01:33:35.880] And so I didn't get into what circumstance caused that. [01:33:35.880 --> 01:33:44.880] I only know that they've got the study and I hadn't ever sent for it just to look at it. [01:33:44.880 --> 01:33:47.880] I just kind of kept it in the back of my mind. [01:33:47.880 --> 01:33:49.880] But that data is actually there. [01:33:49.880 --> 01:33:52.880] How do you spell this doctor's name? [01:33:52.880 --> 01:33:59.880] Her name is Agatha Thrash, T-H-R-A-S-H, Agatha. [01:33:59.880 --> 01:34:03.880] If you look her up on the Internet, I'm sure you're going to find tons of information. [01:34:03.880 --> 01:34:13.880] She has been on The Today Show, all kinds of morning shows like that over the last couple of decades. [01:34:13.880 --> 01:34:17.880] And it's UCHE Pines, U-C-H-E Pines. [01:34:17.880 --> 01:34:20.880] It was named after the UCHE Indians. [01:34:20.880 --> 01:34:23.880] And it's uchepines.org. [01:34:23.880 --> 01:34:30.880] And it's a nonprofit clinic down there and they've been around for about three decades. [01:34:30.880 --> 01:34:31.880] Interesting. [01:34:31.880 --> 01:34:33.880] That's great. [01:34:33.880 --> 01:34:35.880] Yeah. [01:34:35.880 --> 01:34:43.880] At least it's enough that if somebody does go over the limit and it's really safe for them to drive, [01:34:43.880 --> 01:34:49.880] it's very possible that this could be entered in to make it questionable [01:34:49.880 --> 01:34:57.880] about whether the machine really justifiably considered them as being unable to drive that machine or not. [01:34:57.880 --> 01:34:59.880] I would sure like to see that study. [01:34:59.880 --> 01:35:02.880] That would be an interesting cog to throw in their works. [01:35:02.880 --> 01:35:03.880] Really? [01:35:03.880 --> 01:35:05.880] Well, I'll tell you what I'll do. [01:35:05.880 --> 01:35:06.880] I'll take that under my hat. [01:35:06.880 --> 01:35:08.880] I'll get that for you. [01:35:08.880 --> 01:35:09.880] All right. [01:35:09.880 --> 01:35:10.880] Excellent. [01:35:10.880 --> 01:35:11.880] Thank you, Greg. [01:35:11.880 --> 01:35:12.880] You bet. [01:35:12.880 --> 01:35:13.880] Okay. [01:35:13.880 --> 01:35:16.880] We're going to move on now to Jerry from Oregon. [01:35:16.880 --> 01:35:17.880] That was Greg Chapman. [01:35:17.880 --> 01:35:20.880] He's one of the hosts of Agenda 21 Talk. [01:35:20.880 --> 01:35:26.880] Their show airs Fridays 6 to 8 p.m. Central Time and Tuesdays 8 to 10 p.m. Central Time. [01:35:26.880 --> 01:35:30.880] All right, we're going to move on now to Jerry in Oregon. [01:35:30.880 --> 01:35:31.880] Hey, Jerry, thanks for calling in. [01:35:31.880 --> 01:35:33.880] What's on your mind tonight? [01:35:33.880 --> 01:35:34.880] Hey, you too. [01:35:34.880 --> 01:35:38.880] Thank you for being here. [01:35:38.880 --> 01:35:45.880] I have actually a couple questions and comments, I guess. [01:35:45.880 --> 01:35:58.880] Randy, do you think that courts function in a dual jurisdiction being both under criminal and UCC at the same time? [01:35:58.880 --> 01:36:00.880] No. [01:36:00.880 --> 01:36:01.880] You don't think so? [01:36:01.880 --> 01:36:12.880] Because it sure sounds like they operate in both, and your acceptance or refusal to accept their offer, [01:36:12.880 --> 01:36:21.880] it's kind of, I don't know how to really define and explain it, but it's like they operate in both modes at the same time. [01:36:21.880 --> 01:36:27.880] And if one doesn't work, then it defaults to UCC. [01:36:27.880 --> 01:36:36.880] UCC goes to the commerce in goods, and it doesn't go to services. [01:36:36.880 --> 01:36:45.880] And everybody's trying to bring the UCC into the court, and the Code of Criminal Procedure rules the civil procedure. [01:36:45.880 --> 01:36:52.880] They rule, and you can't just jump down to the UCC. [01:36:52.880 --> 01:37:00.880] But do you not think that they operate towards the defendant in that process? [01:37:00.880 --> 01:37:06.880] Granted, you have the due process, which you point out very eloquently. [01:37:06.880 --> 01:37:09.880] I mean, I think you do a really good job at that. [01:37:09.880 --> 01:37:19.880] And I myself have taken your suggestion and went to the library and copied the criminal procedure codes for my state. [01:37:19.880 --> 01:37:24.880] And I'm in the process of reading one time through, and it still makes no sense. [01:37:24.880 --> 01:37:34.880] But I kind of get the impression that quite potentially that they operate in both modes at the same time [01:37:34.880 --> 01:37:45.880] and default to UCC to get your ultimate acceptance to where they can misuse the power that they hold over you. [01:37:45.880 --> 01:37:47.880] I don't know how to explain that very well. [01:37:47.880 --> 01:37:49.880] That's the problem I've had. [01:37:49.880 --> 01:37:57.880] I've had a lot of people make those assertions, but they can't seem to bring me anything I can use. [01:37:57.880 --> 01:38:08.880] Now, I understand how the UCC may apply, and Joe Edwards was the best one of demonstrating that, [01:38:08.880 --> 01:38:19.880] just in dealing back and forth with one another, where the policeman asks him, who are you? [01:38:19.880 --> 01:38:25.880] And Joe Edwards said, well, who are you looking for? [01:38:25.880 --> 01:38:28.880] The officer offered the contract. [01:38:28.880 --> 01:38:37.880] He didn't go for the contract, but he didn't tell him that he accepted his question for value and give it back to him. [01:38:37.880 --> 01:38:43.880] He just didn't enter into an interaction directly with him. [01:38:43.880 --> 01:38:46.880] The officer made an offer to contract. [01:38:46.880 --> 01:38:48.880] He made an offer back. [01:38:48.880 --> 01:38:51.880] But this is just normal interaction. [01:38:51.880 --> 01:38:57.880] And I guess UCC applies to that, but it doesn't go to any code. [01:38:57.880 --> 01:39:01.880] It doesn't go to any duty on the part of either side. [01:39:01.880 --> 01:39:10.880] And this nonsense of saying just because you walk in the courtroom, you give them jurisdiction, no, you don't. [01:39:10.880 --> 01:39:15.880] A court gets jurisdiction statutorily. [01:39:15.880 --> 01:39:22.880] It's very clear how they get jurisdiction, and if they have statutory jurisdiction, they have it. [01:39:22.880 --> 01:39:29.880] I don't know how these guys are getting this stuff to say that just because you stand up [01:39:29.880 --> 01:39:36.880] and speak to the court that all of a sudden everything changes, I can't find it. [01:39:36.880 --> 01:39:38.880] Well, I don't think you would find it. [01:39:38.880 --> 01:39:41.880] I think you would probably have to experience that. [01:39:41.880 --> 01:39:46.880] If I can't find it in law, it doesn't exist. [01:39:46.880 --> 01:39:51.880] You can't just make up stuff and say, well, this applies. [01:39:51.880 --> 01:39:56.880] And these guys have been telling me this stuff, and I say, okay, show me the law. [01:39:56.880 --> 01:40:00.880] And they're not forthcoming with it. [01:40:00.880 --> 01:40:06.880] What about if you had a court transcript of some of the proceedings that they said that they were in? [01:40:06.880 --> 01:40:11.880] I mean, certainly there would be a court transcript of the events that took place. [01:40:11.880 --> 01:40:21.880] And after looking and reviewing the court transcript, I mean, if the story relates exactly as the transcript relates, [01:40:21.880 --> 01:40:26.880] well, then don't you think there would be some merit to that? [01:40:26.880 --> 01:40:36.880] Not unless there's law to back it up, because I can make up stories that sound really, really good, [01:40:36.880 --> 01:40:39.880] that don't necessarily mean anything. [01:40:39.880 --> 01:40:40.880] Here's my problem with that. [01:40:40.880 --> 01:40:42.880] I was called to New York to help this guy. [01:40:42.880 --> 01:40:45.880] He's locked up with the feds. [01:40:45.880 --> 01:40:54.880] He had bought a Mercedes with a bill of exchange, and the Mercedes dealers call the feds, [01:40:54.880 --> 01:40:58.880] and the feds get the call, and they find out the guy's name is Mohammed. [01:40:58.880 --> 01:41:00.880] Oh, goody. [01:41:00.880 --> 01:41:05.880] A head U.S. attorney in Dallas told me when I was trying to get him to arrest some public officials [01:41:05.880 --> 01:41:10.880] that he only has a budget to go after terrorists. [01:41:10.880 --> 01:41:13.880] I said, well, Rick, how many terrorists have you found lately? [01:41:13.880 --> 01:41:15.880] I haven't found any in Fort Worth, but we're looking. [01:41:15.880 --> 01:41:16.880] We're looking. [01:41:16.880 --> 01:41:19.880] So they get a call about somebody named Mohammed. [01:41:19.880 --> 01:41:21.880] Oh, goody, they get to use their budget. [01:41:21.880 --> 01:41:25.880] So they run out and jerk him up and throw him in a can. [01:41:25.880 --> 01:41:29.880] They subpoena his banks where he bought two buildings with these for their records. [01:41:29.880 --> 01:41:31.880] The bank asked him to suppress. [01:41:31.880 --> 01:41:32.880] He said, heck no. [01:41:32.880 --> 01:41:33.880] I did everything right. [01:41:33.880 --> 01:41:34.880] Give him the records. [01:41:34.880 --> 01:41:37.880] They gave the bank the records. [01:41:37.880 --> 01:41:38.880] The feds looked at the records. [01:41:38.880 --> 01:41:40.880] They let him out. [01:41:40.880 --> 01:41:41.880] Here was the problem. [01:41:41.880 --> 01:41:43.880] They called me there to help. [01:41:43.880 --> 01:41:49.880] They give me a stack of folders four inches high telling them how to do this. [01:41:49.880 --> 01:41:50.880] I read through them. [01:41:50.880 --> 01:41:56.880] Not one piece of law in there anywhere. [01:41:56.880 --> 01:41:58.880] He did everything right. [01:41:58.880 --> 01:42:03.880] But when he got before the court, he had no way to protect himself. [01:42:03.880 --> 01:42:12.880] Somebody wants me to go before the court and assert the commercial code before the court. [01:42:12.880 --> 01:42:21.880] You've got to give me some law to get me there, not implication, not just assertion. [01:42:21.880 --> 01:42:29.880] And one of the things I say about writing legal pleadings, you can't make a positive assertion to the court [01:42:29.880 --> 01:42:33.880] except an assertion of material fact. [01:42:33.880 --> 01:42:38.880] Any assertion concerning law, you have to make it in the language of the law. [01:42:38.880 --> 01:42:40.880] And you have to show where you got it from. [01:42:40.880 --> 01:42:43.880] If you read case law, you'll see they do just exactly that. [01:42:43.880 --> 01:42:48.880] There'll be a paragraph that half a sentence and then a case sighting. [01:42:48.880 --> 01:42:50.880] Another half a sentence, a case sighting. [01:42:50.880 --> 01:42:52.880] Two sentences, case sighting. [01:42:52.880 --> 01:42:55.880] They're not saying any of this. [01:42:55.880 --> 01:42:57.880] They're quoting what the court said. [01:42:57.880 --> 01:43:00.880] And that's the only thing the judge can pay attention to. [01:43:00.880 --> 01:43:05.880] So I can't go in there with ideas and beliefs about the common law. [01:43:05.880 --> 01:43:10.880] I've got to have chapter and verse to stick in front of him. [01:43:10.880 --> 01:43:16.880] So you would say, so based on the information within jurisdictionary, [01:43:16.880 --> 01:43:25.880] that would be the proper process and procedures to follow exactly as Dr. Gray has them outlined? [01:43:25.880 --> 01:43:27.880] Precisely. [01:43:27.880 --> 01:43:32.880] And the common law, I mean, the torrential code is going to have its place [01:43:32.880 --> 01:43:36.880] just in how we talk to one another and how we get into contracts [01:43:36.880 --> 01:43:39.880] and how we get out of contracts and into agreements and out. [01:43:39.880 --> 01:43:43.880] But that's it. [01:43:43.880 --> 01:43:47.880] Okay, listen, we're going to break. [01:43:47.880 --> 01:43:48.880] We'll be right back. [01:43:48.880 --> 01:43:52.880] We've also got Wendy from Tennessee and Gary from Texas. [01:43:52.880 --> 01:43:59.880] The rule of law on ruleoflawradio.com. [01:43:59.880 --> 01:44:02.880] Stock markets are taking hit after hit. [01:44:02.880 --> 01:44:05.880] Corrupt bankers are choking on subprime debt. [01:44:05.880 --> 01:44:09.880] The Fed is busy printing dollars, dollars, and more dollars [01:44:09.880 --> 01:44:13.880] to bail out Wall Street banks and the U.S. car industry. [01:44:13.880 --> 01:44:16.880] As investors scramble for safety in the metals, [01:44:16.880 --> 01:44:19.880] in the face of a further devaluation of the dollar, [01:44:19.880 --> 01:44:22.880] the price of silver will only increase. [01:44:22.880 --> 01:44:26.880] Some of the world's leading financial analysts believe that silver [01:44:26.880 --> 01:44:29.880] is one of the world's most important commodities [01:44:29.880 --> 01:44:33.880] with unparalleled investment opportunity for the future. [01:44:33.880 --> 01:44:38.880] Now is the time to buy silver before it heads for $75 an ounce, [01:44:38.880 --> 01:44:44.880] and the yellow metal roars back past $1,000 an ounce to new highs. [01:44:44.880 --> 01:44:51.880] Call Maximus Holdings now at 407-608-5430 to find out [01:44:51.880 --> 01:44:56.880] how you can turn your IRA and 401K into a solid investment, [01:44:56.880 --> 01:44:59.880] silver, without any penalties for early withdrawal. [01:44:59.880 --> 01:45:02.880] Even if you don't have a retirement account yet, [01:45:02.880 --> 01:45:05.880] we have fantastic investment opportunities for you. [01:45:05.880 --> 01:45:12.880] Call Maximus Holdings at 407-608-5430 for more information. [01:45:12.880 --> 01:45:15.880] Thank you. [01:45:15.880 --> 01:45:17.880] Hello. [01:45:17.880 --> 01:45:19.880] Oh, man. [01:45:19.880 --> 01:45:21.880] I'm in jail. [01:45:21.880 --> 01:45:23.880] Got something to talk about. [01:45:23.880 --> 01:45:27.880] I'm broke, dude. [01:45:31.880 --> 01:45:35.880] Some things in this world I will never understand. [01:45:35.880 --> 01:45:39.880] Some things in this world I will never understand. [01:45:39.880 --> 01:45:43.880] Some things I realize fully. [01:45:43.880 --> 01:45:47.880] Somebody's going to police that policeman. [01:45:47.880 --> 01:45:51.880] Somebody's going to police the bully. [01:45:51.880 --> 01:45:53.880] There's always a rule of law. [01:45:53.880 --> 01:45:54.880] All right. [01:45:54.880 --> 01:45:56.880] Somebody's going to police the policeman. [01:45:56.880 --> 01:45:59.880] Somebody's going to bully the bully. [01:45:59.880 --> 01:46:00.880] That would be us. [01:46:00.880 --> 01:46:03.880] This is the rule of law on ruleoflawradio.com. [01:46:03.880 --> 01:46:09.880] Sorry, with all the different format going on tonight, [01:46:09.880 --> 01:46:12.880] I forgot to make a couple of very important announcements. [01:46:12.880 --> 01:46:19.880] We have yet another new affiliate in St. Louis, Missouri, 1700AMKDX. [01:46:19.880 --> 01:46:28.880] We want to welcome our newest affiliate in St. Louis, Missouri, 1700AMKDX. [01:46:28.880 --> 01:46:34.880] Also, we have another announcement to make. [01:46:34.880 --> 01:46:39.880] We're adding another show on Wednesday nights from 6 to 8 p.m. Central Time. [01:46:39.880 --> 01:46:46.880] The host is going to be John Bush from Texans for Accountable Government. [01:46:46.880 --> 01:46:50.880] The name of his show is still pending, [01:46:50.880 --> 01:46:56.880] but he will be coming on starting April 15th here on ruleoflawradio.com. [01:46:56.880 --> 01:47:02.880] We discussed this with him the other night at the Texans for Accountable Government Forum [01:47:02.880 --> 01:47:05.880] on the police blood withdrawals. [01:47:05.880 --> 01:47:09.880] We want to welcome John Bush to the crew. [01:47:09.880 --> 01:47:13.880] He'll be starting his show Wednesday, April 15th. [01:47:13.880 --> 01:47:17.880] Again, we want to welcome our newest affiliates. [01:47:17.880 --> 01:47:20.880] That's no relation to Jeb or George. [01:47:20.880 --> 01:47:21.880] I'm sorry? [01:47:21.880 --> 01:47:22.880] That's John. [01:47:22.880 --> 01:47:24.880] No relation to Jeb or George. [01:47:24.880 --> 01:47:26.880] Right. [01:47:26.880 --> 01:47:29.880] Now we have Wendy from Tennessee. [01:47:29.880 --> 01:47:33.880] We've also got Gary from Texas and Terry from Texas on the line. [01:47:33.880 --> 01:47:35.880] We want to get to everyone's calls tonight. [01:47:35.880 --> 01:47:40.880] We've got about 11 minutes left, so we want to be concise with our callers. [01:47:40.880 --> 01:47:41.880] Wendy, thanks for calling in. [01:47:41.880 --> 01:47:44.880] What's on your mind tonight? [01:47:44.880 --> 01:47:49.880] The reason why I was calling in, I had talked to Randy yesterday, the day before, [01:47:49.880 --> 01:47:53.880] and about filing criminal complaints in the federal courts. [01:47:53.880 --> 01:47:57.880] We also talked about filing a restraining order against the sheriff. [01:47:57.880 --> 01:48:00.880] I was just going to yell out. [01:48:00.880 --> 01:48:02.880] I've studied the criminal complaints in the federal courts [01:48:02.880 --> 01:48:06.880] and how they're supposed to be presented and stuff. [01:48:06.880 --> 01:48:08.880] Okay. [01:48:08.880 --> 01:48:13.880] A federal complaint has a specific structure. [01:48:13.880 --> 01:48:15.880] Yes. [01:48:15.880 --> 01:48:16.880] Send me an email, remind me. [01:48:16.880 --> 01:48:23.880] I'll send you a copy of a criminal complaint that I made up on a certain IRS agent. [01:48:23.880 --> 01:48:25.880] Okay. [01:48:25.880 --> 01:48:29.880] Send me one on a restraining order, too. [01:48:29.880 --> 01:48:31.880] I've been studying the criminal. [01:48:31.880 --> 01:48:32.880] Okay. [01:48:32.880 --> 01:48:34.880] A restraining order is real simple. [01:48:34.880 --> 01:48:37.880] You state that these... [01:48:37.880 --> 01:48:40.880] Matter of fact, Eddie from Texas, I thought he was going to call in. [01:48:40.880 --> 01:48:41.880] He wrote up a restraining order. [01:48:41.880 --> 01:48:44.880] It's about 50 pages, and I chastised him about it. [01:48:44.880 --> 01:48:46.880] I said, that shouldn't be the restraining order. [01:48:46.880 --> 01:48:47.880] That should be the argument. [01:48:47.880 --> 01:48:49.880] So he made up another one. [01:48:49.880 --> 01:48:52.880] It was excellent. [01:48:52.880 --> 01:48:55.880] Restraining order, you tell the judge, [01:48:55.880 --> 01:49:00.880] this individual or entity is going to do this thing. [01:49:00.880 --> 01:49:04.880] If they do this thing, they'll have no authority to do it, [01:49:04.880 --> 01:49:10.880] or there's some legal issue concerning the doing of this thing. [01:49:10.880 --> 01:49:15.880] And if they do this, they will cause irreparable harm. [01:49:15.880 --> 01:49:22.880] If you restrain them, they will not be harmed by the delay. [01:49:22.880 --> 01:49:25.880] So you ask the court to delay... [01:49:25.880 --> 01:49:26.880] You show what the harm is. [01:49:26.880 --> 01:49:30.880] You show why they don't have the right to do what they're doing, [01:49:30.880 --> 01:49:35.880] and show how they won't be harmed if you delay. [01:49:35.880 --> 01:49:42.880] It asks the court for a restraining order to give time to hold a show cause hearing, [01:49:42.880 --> 01:49:47.880] and you'll get that almost out of hand. [01:49:47.880 --> 01:49:49.880] It's handled like a Ritehavius corpus. [01:49:49.880 --> 01:49:51.880] You go give it to the judge, [01:49:51.880 --> 01:49:56.880] and the only thing that takes precedent over it is the Ritehavius corpus. [01:49:56.880 --> 01:49:59.880] Emergency restraining order, give it to the clerk. [01:49:59.880 --> 01:50:04.880] The clerk will stamp it, give it back to you, or take it to the judge herself. [01:50:04.880 --> 01:50:06.880] And you go to the judge. [01:50:06.880 --> 01:50:08.880] If she takes you to the judge, you go to the judge. [01:50:08.880 --> 01:50:10.880] The judge will call you, and you ask for the restraining order, [01:50:10.880 --> 01:50:13.880] and generally they'll just sign it out of hand, [01:50:13.880 --> 01:50:17.880] because all it does is stay both parties. [01:50:17.880 --> 01:50:18.880] Nobody does anything. [01:50:18.880 --> 01:50:20.880] Come to court. [01:50:20.880 --> 01:50:23.880] Show me what you got, and then I'll make my decision. [01:50:23.880 --> 01:50:26.880] Generally, it's within 15 days that I'll have a show cause hearing. [01:50:26.880 --> 01:50:31.880] At the show cause hearing, there you make all your legal arguments. [01:50:31.880 --> 01:50:35.880] In the restraining order, petition for emergency restraining order, [01:50:35.880 --> 01:50:41.880] you just give the judge enough to show that you have some reason to do this, [01:50:41.880 --> 01:50:46.880] and show nobody's going to be badly harmed by it. [01:50:46.880 --> 01:50:50.880] It essentially asks the judge to stop and wait. [01:50:50.880 --> 01:50:53.880] That's all there is to that. [01:50:53.880 --> 01:50:56.880] Okay, we'll get that done. [01:50:56.880 --> 01:50:57.880] Excellent. [01:50:57.880 --> 01:51:01.880] If you do have an example of Eddie's, I'd like to read it. [01:51:01.880 --> 01:51:04.880] I will send you Eddie's, and I'm sure he won't mind. [01:51:04.880 --> 01:51:06.880] I've got to call him and talk to him. [01:51:06.880 --> 01:51:09.880] The only thing he asked for was a permanent injunction, [01:51:09.880 --> 01:51:11.880] and you should have asked for a temporary. [01:51:11.880 --> 01:51:16.880] You ask for the temporary until you get to the show cause hearing, [01:51:16.880 --> 01:51:18.880] and at the show cause hearing, [01:51:18.880 --> 01:51:21.880] then you ask for the judge to make it permanent, [01:51:21.880 --> 01:51:23.880] and that's the purpose of the show cause hearing. [01:51:23.880 --> 01:51:25.880] Okay. [01:51:25.880 --> 01:51:29.880] All right, thank you, Wendy. [01:51:29.880 --> 01:51:30.880] All right, thank you, Wendy. [01:51:30.880 --> 01:51:32.880] All right, we have just a few minutes left. [01:51:32.880 --> 01:51:33.880] We've got two more callers on the line. [01:51:33.880 --> 01:51:35.880] I want to go to Terry in Texas. [01:51:35.880 --> 01:51:36.880] I believe Terry is a first-time caller. [01:51:36.880 --> 01:51:38.880] Terry, are you a first-time caller? [01:51:38.880 --> 01:51:40.880] How did you know that? [01:51:40.880 --> 01:51:42.880] Because. [01:51:42.880 --> 01:51:44.880] Women know everything. [01:51:44.880 --> 01:51:46.880] Well, no, it's because I'm running the infrastructure. [01:51:46.880 --> 01:51:47.880] That's why. [01:51:47.880 --> 01:51:52.880] You put it in a thing that shows who's calling and who's not. [01:51:52.880 --> 01:51:53.880] So what's on your mind, Terry? [01:51:53.880 --> 01:51:54.880] Thank you for calling in. [01:51:54.880 --> 01:51:59.880] I can always call tomorrow if I need, if this one's too long, [01:51:59.880 --> 01:52:00.880] because I realize you guys are open later. [01:52:00.880 --> 01:52:02.880] But, anyway, quick question. [01:52:02.880 --> 01:52:06.880] If we can get an answer tonight, fine, I'll answer tomorrow if that's the case. [01:52:06.880 --> 01:52:09.880] I have bought a car in a real long time. [01:52:09.880 --> 01:52:13.880] I got rid of my other car and I bought a used vehicle. [01:52:13.880 --> 01:52:14.880] I've been out of town quite a bit. [01:52:14.880 --> 01:52:16.880] I let it lapse for about a year. [01:52:16.880 --> 01:52:17.880] Didn't get it registered. [01:52:17.880 --> 01:52:18.880] Went and got it. [01:52:18.880 --> 01:52:20.880] Tried to go down today. [01:52:20.880 --> 01:52:22.880] I've got the title on the vehicle. [01:52:22.880 --> 01:52:23.880] It's used. [01:52:23.880 --> 01:52:27.880] I went to go, I guess, I don't know if it's considered registered. [01:52:27.880 --> 01:52:28.880] I'm familiar with it. [01:52:28.880 --> 01:52:29.880] It's been so long since I did it. [01:52:29.880 --> 01:52:32.880] They were supposed to issue, I guess, you got when you buy it from them, [01:52:32.880 --> 01:52:34.880] he signs the title over to you. [01:52:34.880 --> 01:52:38.880] You get, I guess, a new title and get registered. [01:52:38.880 --> 01:52:42.880] What I want to know is on this, in the state of Texas, in Austin, [01:52:42.880 --> 01:52:44.880] in particular, I guess it really doesn't matter, [01:52:44.880 --> 01:52:47.880] they're saying on one of these forums that they want you. [01:52:47.880 --> 01:52:51.880] Now, this is new information to me that they require a Social Security number. [01:52:51.880 --> 01:52:53.880] Is that true or is that not true? [01:52:53.880 --> 01:52:57.880] They ask for it and you tell them, forget about it, ain't going to happen. [01:52:57.880 --> 01:53:01.880] If you make me do it, I'll have to get the security over here to arrest you [01:53:01.880 --> 01:53:04.880] because it's against the law and they'll say, oh, they'll find out. [01:53:04.880 --> 01:53:08.880] Now, I went to a place on Justin Lane and they said I had to have it. [01:53:08.880 --> 01:53:11.880] And then they caused a big stink about it and I walked out. [01:53:11.880 --> 01:53:13.880] It was their service they use. [01:53:13.880 --> 01:53:16.880] So if I walk down to the county and fill out all this stuff, [01:53:16.880 --> 01:53:19.880] I shouldn't, it's got a thing on the very, on the bottom. [01:53:19.880 --> 01:53:24.880] It says, no, transportation code 501 dash or dot 0234 requires [01:53:24.880 --> 01:53:26.880] that African Social Security number be provided [01:53:26.880 --> 01:53:29.880] when applying for a certificate of title. [01:53:29.880 --> 01:53:32.880] Yeah, but there's been a lot of stink about that lately [01:53:32.880 --> 01:53:39.880] because the Social Security number is not allowed to be used [01:53:39.880 --> 01:53:42.880] as a form of identification. [01:53:42.880 --> 01:53:46.880] If you have a specific objection to it, to giving them your Social Security number, [01:53:46.880 --> 01:53:49.880] I would sure raise it to them. [01:53:49.880 --> 01:53:54.880] And if you want to put them on the dime, you take a disclaimer with you [01:53:54.880 --> 01:53:59.880] and ask them to sign it in case your identity is stolen, [01:53:59.880 --> 01:54:03.880] that they agree to be liable. [01:54:03.880 --> 01:54:05.880] Okay. [01:54:05.880 --> 01:54:08.880] You know, there was, just a couple years ago, [01:54:08.880 --> 01:54:16.880] the Attorney General made all of the clerks in all of the counties [01:54:16.880 --> 01:54:20.880] start taking all of the Social Security numbers out of all of the records. [01:54:20.880 --> 01:54:22.880] So you think if I take this down to the county, [01:54:22.880 --> 01:54:24.880] even though this form will be generated again, [01:54:24.880 --> 01:54:29.880] they won't make me try to food swoggle me to put it on there, [01:54:29.880 --> 01:54:31.880] and when I say no, they'll just melt? [01:54:31.880 --> 01:54:33.880] Most likely they won't pursue [01:54:33.880 --> 01:54:37.880] because there was so much problem with Social Security number. [01:54:37.880 --> 01:54:40.880] You tell them it's a crime to use a Social Security number [01:54:40.880 --> 01:54:46.880] as a form of identification, and you subject me to identity theft. [01:54:46.880 --> 01:54:49.880] So if you insist, then I want you to sign this disclaimer [01:54:49.880 --> 01:54:54.880] that you'll be liable if someone steals my identity. [01:54:54.880 --> 01:54:56.880] Okay. [01:54:56.880 --> 01:54:57.880] It doesn't require for ID. [01:54:57.880 --> 01:55:00.880] It just has it on the box on the side, county use only, [01:55:00.880 --> 01:55:04.880] Part 13, applicant, additional applicant, Social Security numbers. [01:55:04.880 --> 01:55:06.880] Well, you don't care what they're going to use it for. [01:55:06.880 --> 01:55:10.880] You just know if somebody gets it and steals your ID, [01:55:10.880 --> 01:55:12.880] I'm coming to you, Bubba. [01:55:12.880 --> 01:55:14.880] I'm going to hold you responsible for it. [01:55:14.880 --> 01:55:17.880] That'll generally get them to find another way to do that. [01:55:17.880 --> 01:55:18.880] Okay. [01:55:18.880 --> 01:55:19.880] Hi, Terry. [01:55:19.880 --> 01:55:21.880] Would you like to call back in tomorrow night? [01:55:21.880 --> 01:55:24.880] I'm going to go down tomorrow, and if I'll see what headway I got, [01:55:24.880 --> 01:55:25.880] and if not, I'll come back tomorrow. [01:55:25.880 --> 01:55:26.880] I'll call you back tomorrow. [01:55:26.880 --> 01:55:27.880] All right, sounds good. [01:55:27.880 --> 01:55:28.880] Thank you, Terry. [01:55:28.880 --> 01:55:30.880] If you're a valuable assistance, I'll make a donation. [01:55:30.880 --> 01:55:31.880] Oh, thank you. [01:55:31.880 --> 01:55:34.880] If I get a call from the jail, Terry from Texas, I'll say, [01:55:34.880 --> 01:55:36.880] Terry, who? [01:55:36.880 --> 01:55:37.880] Okay, thank you, Terry. [01:55:37.880 --> 01:55:38.880] Thank you very much. [01:55:38.880 --> 01:55:39.880] Okay, we just have a couple minutes left. [01:55:39.880 --> 01:55:42.880] We're going now to Gary in Texas. [01:55:42.880 --> 01:55:43.880] Hey, Gary, thanks for calling in. [01:55:43.880 --> 01:55:44.880] What's on your mind tonight? [01:55:44.880 --> 01:55:45.880] Hey, good evening. [01:55:45.880 --> 01:55:49.880] Hey, just a quick thing about the checkpoints. [01:55:49.880 --> 01:55:57.880] I wonder if we're making the wrong argument about them, [01:55:57.880 --> 01:56:02.880] because the checkpoints and the transportation code apply to [01:56:02.880 --> 01:56:08.880] those who are under the privilege of driving. [01:56:08.880 --> 01:56:10.880] And I'm wondering if this doesn't get back to that same old [01:56:10.880 --> 01:56:13.880] fundamental argument about the right of travel versus the [01:56:13.880 --> 01:56:18.880] privilege of driving, driving being a commercial pursuit, [01:56:18.880 --> 01:56:22.880] traveling being a fundamental constitutional right. [01:56:22.880 --> 01:56:26.880] It does get to that, but we haven't got that properly [01:56:26.880 --> 01:56:28.880] adjudicated yet. [01:56:28.880 --> 01:56:30.880] There's not enough of us. [01:56:30.880 --> 01:56:31.880] That's right. [01:56:31.880 --> 01:56:35.880] You know, if 10,000 people sent their license back in their [01:56:35.880 --> 01:56:39.880] place and said we're done, we're not playing the charade anymore. [01:56:39.880 --> 01:56:41.880] Well, we know that, you know. [01:56:41.880 --> 01:56:43.880] You got a good point there, Gary. [01:56:43.880 --> 01:56:44.880] I'm sorry. [01:56:44.880 --> 01:56:50.880] If 10,000 people sued the judge for violating the ministerial [01:56:50.880 --> 01:56:55.880] duty to apply the law as it exists to the facts developed, [01:56:55.880 --> 01:56:57.880] that would get it done. [01:56:57.880 --> 01:56:58.880] Well, it would. [01:56:58.880 --> 01:57:02.880] So what we're seeing, not only in the transportation issue, [01:57:02.880 --> 01:57:06.880] but with so many issues, we are seeing rampant [01:57:06.880 --> 01:57:13.880] misinforcement of good law and good statute. [01:57:13.880 --> 01:57:17.880] The transportation code is misinforced, [01:57:17.880 --> 01:57:19.880] because mama who's taking her kids to school, [01:57:19.880 --> 01:57:22.880] she's not transporting. [01:57:22.880 --> 01:57:25.880] She's merely traveling, private. [01:57:25.880 --> 01:57:30.880] It has nothing to do with any commercial enterprise. [01:57:30.880 --> 01:57:32.880] And the transportation code is a very, [01:57:32.880 --> 01:57:36.880] very good thing for those to whom it applies. [01:57:36.880 --> 01:57:39.880] But for those of us who are merely exercising our right of [01:57:39.880 --> 01:57:43.880] public vehicle travel, they need to leave us alone. [01:57:43.880 --> 01:57:46.880] I'm just tired of playing this game. [01:57:46.880 --> 01:57:50.880] Well, that is just a fight I haven't got to yet. [01:57:50.880 --> 01:57:53.880] I'm trying to soften up the courts. [01:57:53.880 --> 01:57:55.880] Once we get the courts softened up, [01:57:55.880 --> 01:57:59.880] then we can go and start kicking those municipal judges. [01:57:59.880 --> 01:58:00.880] I agree. [01:58:00.880 --> 01:58:02.880] You know, so many of these arguments we make is they're [01:58:02.880 --> 01:58:04.880] about as profitable as trying to figure out how many angels [01:58:04.880 --> 01:58:07.880] can dance on the head of a straight skin. [01:58:07.880 --> 01:58:08.880] Really? [01:58:08.880 --> 01:58:09.880] Yeah. [01:58:09.880 --> 01:58:10.880] Yeah. [01:58:10.880 --> 01:58:12.880] I guess this is to be carried forth to another day, huh? [01:58:12.880 --> 01:58:14.880] Yes. [01:58:14.880 --> 01:58:15.880] All right. [01:58:15.880 --> 01:58:16.880] Thank you for calling in, Gary. [01:58:16.880 --> 01:58:17.880] We're at the end of the show now. [01:58:17.880 --> 01:58:18.880] Bye. [01:58:18.880 --> 01:58:19.880] Bye-bye. [01:58:19.880 --> 01:58:20.880] All right. [01:58:20.880 --> 01:58:23.880] Tomorrow night, 6 to 8, Agenda 21 Talk, [01:58:23.880 --> 01:58:25.880] Greg Chapman and Don Terry. [01:58:25.880 --> 01:58:29.880] And then we will be doing our Friday Night Info Marathon [01:58:29.880 --> 01:58:31.880] from 8 to midnight. [01:58:31.880 --> 01:58:32.880] So tune in. [01:58:32.880 --> 01:58:36.880] The Rule of Law, ruleoflawradios.com. [01:58:36.880 --> 01:58:38.880] We'll see you tomorrow night. [01:58:38.880 --> 01:58:50.880] Thank you. [01:59:08.880 --> 01:59:33.880] Thank you. [01:59:33.880 --> 01:59:55.880] Thank you.