[00:00.000 --> 00:09.760]  Today in Iraq, the discovery of 18 buried bodies in the Ala province brought the number of reported
[00:09.760 --> 00:13.680]  Iraqi deaths to 33 and 17 wounded.
[00:13.680 --> 00:18.200]  The scheduled withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq is being discussed in Washington.
[00:18.200 --> 00:23.360]  U.S. President Barack Obama met with military and security officials Wednesday to devise
[00:23.360 --> 00:26.400]  a plan for a swift drawdown.
[00:26.400 --> 00:32.000]  Three oil companies from Italy, Spain and Japan submitted bids to win a contract that
[00:32.000 --> 00:36.320]  will allow one of them to develop an oil field near Nazaria.
[00:36.320 --> 00:41.440]  This news brief brought to you by the International News Net.
[00:41.440 --> 00:46.360]  As accusations of Israeli war crimes continue to pour in from Gaza, human rights groups
[00:46.360 --> 00:49.360]  say they face an uphill battle in pressing the cases in court.
[00:49.360 --> 00:54.200]  In a story in Thursday's Washington Independent, Jessica Montel, executive director of Beats
[00:54.200 --> 00:59.160]  Salam, a human rights group in Israel that monitors the occupied territories, says that
[00:59.160 --> 01:03.560]  international law enforcement measures are uneven regarding war crimes.
[01:03.560 --> 01:08.080]  Montel noted that weaker powers are more likely to be held responsible for violations of the
[01:08.080 --> 01:09.880]  laws of war than stronger ones.
[01:09.880 --> 01:14.520]  According to Montel, what matters is not only the gravity of the crimes committed, it's
[01:14.520 --> 01:16.600]  also your standing in the world.
[01:16.600 --> 01:21.240]  Montel said that neither Russia or the U.S. are ever going to the International Criminal
[01:21.240 --> 01:22.240]  Court.
[01:22.240 --> 01:27.320]  Montel says that when her group criticizes Israeli behavior in Gaza, the automatic response
[01:27.320 --> 01:30.240]  is, look at what the United States did in Fallujah.
[01:30.240 --> 01:35.480]  Top of the hour news brought to you by INN World Report.
[01:35.480 --> 01:40.120]  Ralph Nader's organization sent a letter to President Obama urging him to avoid the
[01:40.120 --> 01:44.800]  disregard for international legal obligations that condemned his predecessor.
[01:44.800 --> 01:48.640]  The issue concerns investigating or prosecuting torture.
[01:48.640 --> 01:54.960]  The letter states that the United States ratified the United Nations Convention Against Torture,
[01:54.960 --> 02:02.160]  CAT, in 1994, ensuring that competent authorities will proceed to hold an impartial investigation
[02:02.160 --> 02:06.160]  wherever there is reasonable ground to believe that an act of torture has been committed
[02:06.160 --> 02:09.720]  in any territory under its jurisdiction.
[02:09.720 --> 02:14.400]  Bush and Cheney have both openly conceded that they authorized waterboarding on at least
[02:14.400 --> 02:15.400]  three prisoners.
[02:15.400 --> 02:20.640]  In addition, there have been several credible reports about torture at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo
[02:20.640 --> 02:23.400]  Bay, and other secret locations.
[02:23.400 --> 02:29.120]  The letter points out that Article 12 of the CAT thus requires that Obama's administration
[02:29.120 --> 02:35.080]  conduct a prompt and impartial investigation of the individuals and their superiors involved
[02:35.080 --> 02:40.560]  in waterboarding the prisoners and in interrogating Mohammed al-Qahtani.
[02:40.560 --> 02:56.800]  If no investigation is forthcoming, President Obama will have violated Article 12.
[03:40.560 --> 03:41.160]  In addition, there have been several credible reports that the United States has been
[03:41.160 --> 03:41.920]  conducting a prompt and impartial investigation of the individuals and their superiors involved
[03:41.920 --> 04:11.280]  in waterboarding the prisoners and in interrogating Mohammed al-Qahtani.
[04:11.920 --> 04:31.720]  In addition, there have been several credible reports that the United States has been conducting
[04:31.720 --> 04:38.720]  a prompt and impartial investigation of the individuals and their superiors involved in
[04:38.720 --> 04:45.720]  waterboarding the prisoners and in interrogating Mohammed al-Qahtani.
[05:08.720 --> 05:27.040]  I'm going to interview Chris and Holland about their background, how they got into
[05:27.040 --> 05:36.880]  the movement and the whole issue of the Oklahoma City bombing and the TWA airplane explosion,
[05:36.880 --> 05:40.800]  which was apparently shot down by our own military and these sorts of things.
[05:40.800 --> 05:48.760]  We have Randy Kelton is now back from Casino Land, Las Vegas.
[05:48.760 --> 05:53.880]  Randy, so you- It was tough, I toughed it out, I took one
[05:53.880 --> 05:54.880]  for the Gipper.
[05:54.880 --> 05:56.600]  Took one for the Gipper, huh?
[05:56.600 --> 06:01.520]  Yeah, they brought me out there earlier and I didn't know Monday was a holiday and I got
[06:01.520 --> 06:04.360]  stuck in the Golden Nugget.
[06:04.360 --> 06:06.400]  Well did you bring home any Golden Nuggets for me?
[06:06.400 --> 06:08.720]  I did not put one penny in one of those machines.
[06:08.720 --> 06:10.720]  That's not what I asked.
[06:10.720 --> 06:11.720]  No, not yet.
[06:11.720 --> 06:15.160]  Oh yes, I have a really good Golden Nugget for you.
[06:15.160 --> 06:16.160]  Oh, okay.
[06:16.160 --> 06:23.680]  But anybody who hasn't been to Vegas, there was one thing that astounded me on Fremont
[06:23.680 --> 06:27.640]  Street for two full city blocks.
[06:27.640 --> 06:33.600]  When I got there, it had this arch, it's about three stories up, that arches from the buildings
[06:33.600 --> 06:38.920]  on one side of the street, arches up and over, it makes a half circle and comes down to the
[06:38.920 --> 06:42.000]  buildings on the other side of the street.
[06:42.000 --> 06:46.600]  And night before last is the only time I was out at night.
[06:46.600 --> 06:55.120]  That whole thing is one video screen, two city blocks long.
[06:55.120 --> 06:57.920]  It was incredible.
[06:57.920 --> 07:02.080]  Anyway, that was great.
[07:02.080 --> 07:07.440]  I also was doing some research on Nevada law and I'll go through this briefly then we can
[07:07.440 --> 07:10.440]  go back to Chris.
[07:10.440 --> 07:15.600]  In Nevada, I couldn't, that's why I have to do more research.
[07:15.600 --> 07:21.480]  I haven't found where under Nevada law you need an indictment.
[07:21.480 --> 07:29.120]  It appears that unlike in Texas, the prosecuting attorney files the criminal complaint.
[07:29.120 --> 07:33.640]  But in reading the law, when a policeman arrests someone, they're supposed to bring them before
[07:33.640 --> 07:34.640]  a magistrate.
[07:34.640 --> 07:40.400]  And if they don't bring them before a magistrate, within 48 hours have to release them.
[07:40.400 --> 07:46.720]  So what it appears they have done is decided, well, heck, this is a great deal.
[07:46.720 --> 07:49.640]  We'll just arrest people and hold them as long as we want to.
[07:49.640 --> 07:56.200]  And if it gets to 48 hours, especially the guys who don't have the money to post bail,
[07:56.200 --> 07:59.160]  we just bump them out.
[07:59.160 --> 08:04.040]  I couldn't find that anybody's ever brought before a magistrate.
[08:04.040 --> 08:13.200]  And the records similar to Texas that should be created, like in this case, this woman
[08:13.200 --> 08:20.160]  claims that they beat her up, broke her thumb, did all kinds of crapola to her and arrested
[08:20.160 --> 08:26.500]  her and held her and when she wouldn't let them give her a tuberculosis inoculation,
[08:26.500 --> 08:32.720]  they literally tortured her for 35 hours, held her right up to the last minute, even
[08:32.720 --> 08:38.720]  though she had posted bail like six hours once after she got in there, as soon as she
[08:38.720 --> 08:48.880]  could, they still held her up and right up to the 48 hour mark and then let her out.
[08:48.880 --> 08:51.320]  Hey, Randy, look, Randy, look, okay.
[08:51.320 --> 08:57.420]  And I've heard about other states like Pennsylvania who don't, you know, doesn't even have grand
[08:57.420 --> 08:59.360]  jury and all this kind of thing.
[08:59.360 --> 09:01.680]  I mean, to me, this goes to federal.
[09:01.680 --> 09:08.400]  I really don't care what the states say about, well, the prosecutor can file a criminal complaint
[09:08.400 --> 09:12.840]  or they don't have to indict and they can just convict people and throw them in jail
[09:12.840 --> 09:13.840]  or whatever.
[09:13.840 --> 09:14.840]  I'm sorry.
[09:14.840 --> 09:19.960]  They don't have constitution, well, we still have fundamental basic rights that are protected
[09:19.960 --> 09:25.400]  by the U.S. Constitution and here's the deal with the states, okay?
[09:25.400 --> 09:30.840]  The states cannot infringe upon our rights.
[09:30.840 --> 09:37.160]  The states, the state governments cannot take away any of the rights that are protected
[09:37.160 --> 09:39.060]  by our U.S. Constitution.
[09:39.060 --> 09:47.960]  They can enumerate additional rights or privileges if they want to, but they cannot say, oh well,
[09:47.960 --> 09:52.600]  we just don't want to deal with grand juries or just forget the Fourth Amendment, okay?
[09:52.600 --> 09:53.600]  States can't do this.
[09:53.600 --> 09:56.000]  This goes to federal, okay?
[09:56.000 --> 09:58.680]  People have to appeal this into the federal court system.
[09:58.680 --> 10:02.600]  Yes, and that is precisely where I was going.
[10:02.600 --> 10:04.720]  You're right on.
[10:04.720 --> 10:09.640]  They're trying to use state law and they're trying to manipulate state law just like they
[10:09.640 --> 10:15.560]  do in Texas, but in Nevada, they have different statutes, so they manipulate them differently.
[10:15.560 --> 10:18.240]  You see, this woman was arrested improperly.
[10:18.240 --> 10:23.720]  From what I'm listening to, it appears as though they were training this officer in
[10:23.720 --> 10:30.860]  how to contain people and they just needed somebody, picked the wrong one.
[10:30.860 --> 10:32.400]  This woman's out here playing slots.
[10:32.400 --> 10:37.760]  They come and get her and take her in the back because this woman had witnessed them
[10:37.760 --> 10:41.080]  beating up another woman and her boyfriend commented about it.
[10:41.080 --> 10:42.400]  She didn't say anything.
[10:42.400 --> 10:46.600]  They come out and take them both in the back and wind up beating up her and tying her to
[10:46.600 --> 10:49.160]  a chair just like the other woman.
[10:49.160 --> 10:53.320]  While the guy's doing it, the other officers are instructing him in the technique.
[10:53.320 --> 10:56.320]  They didn't instruct him very good because he broke her thumb.
[10:56.320 --> 11:01.080]  Well, see, the problem is when he arrests the person, he's supposed to take them to
[11:01.080 --> 11:04.160]  a magistrate and explain himself.
[11:04.160 --> 11:06.980]  That's the last thing these guys wanted to do.
[11:06.980 --> 11:09.940]  They needed to get all their stories straight first.
[11:09.940 --> 11:13.040]  They couldn't take them straight down there and say, oh yeah, we drove her out off the
[11:13.040 --> 11:15.920]  floor and beat the crap out of her.
[11:15.920 --> 11:16.920]  They had to make up a story.
[11:16.920 --> 11:21.840]  They had to get a time to get a story together so they couldn't take her directly to a magistrate.
[11:21.840 --> 11:25.000]  They didn't take her to one at all.
[11:25.000 --> 11:32.400]  Now they've had plenty of time to make up their story and the prosecuting attorney must
[11:32.400 --> 11:37.400]  file a complaint within 15 days after arrest.
[11:37.400 --> 11:40.600]  This guy waited almost 30 days.
[11:40.600 --> 11:43.800]  So they're doing everything wrong.
[11:43.800 --> 11:48.640]  Well, the statutes are unconstitutional in their face to begin with.
[11:48.640 --> 11:51.520]  Well, no, actually statutes are correct.
[11:51.520 --> 11:54.560]  They would meet the constitutional muster.
[11:54.560 --> 11:55.960]  They're supposed to take them to a magistrate.
[11:55.960 --> 11:56.960]  No, Randy.
[11:56.960 --> 12:02.640]  You've always said that the prosecutor cannot file the criminal complaint because the state
[12:02.640 --> 12:05.280]  cannot be the prosecutor and the accuser.
[12:05.280 --> 12:06.280]  Okay.
[12:06.280 --> 12:08.040]  That issue, that is an issue.
[12:08.040 --> 12:13.480]  We have a statute that forbids it in Texas and it's not done anywhere else and that is
[12:13.480 --> 12:15.280]  a really good issue.
[12:15.280 --> 12:16.840]  That's why we had the Magna Carta.
[12:16.840 --> 12:17.840]  Yeah.
[12:17.840 --> 12:18.840]  You're right about that.
[12:18.840 --> 12:24.560]  And in Nevada, clearly the state is the accuser and the prosecutor.
[12:24.560 --> 12:30.280]  It's not a policeman issuing a complaint in his personal capacity.
[12:30.280 --> 12:31.480]  This is a public official.
[12:31.480 --> 12:36.240]  This is the state issuing the complaint.
[12:36.240 --> 12:40.120]  But what they're doing with the magistrate is they're creating it so that they never
[12:40.120 --> 12:42.320]  have to go before a magistrate.
[12:42.320 --> 12:46.640]  Well, it sounds to me like we just need to take it to federal.
[12:46.640 --> 12:50.520]  Well, there's something else I found in there.
[12:50.520 --> 12:55.480]  I couldn't find where they used indictments for criminal prosecution, but they do have
[12:55.480 --> 13:02.200]  grand juries and they use grand juries in Nevada similar to the way they use them in
[13:02.200 --> 13:08.920]  California as investigative grand juries.
[13:08.920 --> 13:21.640]  And the best part was five registered voters can petition and convene a grand jury in Nevada.
[13:21.640 --> 13:24.480]  Wonderful.
[13:24.480 --> 13:27.600]  We are going to have a great time with that.
[13:27.600 --> 13:35.640]  And even if we can't petition and convene a grand jury to indict particular individuals,
[13:35.640 --> 13:44.320]  we can convene an examining grand jury to examine into the practices and procedures
[13:44.320 --> 13:53.080]  of the state of Clark County, Nevada or the state of Nevada once we get all of these improprieties
[13:53.080 --> 13:54.080]  lined out.
[13:54.080 --> 13:55.080]  Yeah.
[13:55.080 --> 13:57.960]  But Randy, you're saying something about there's no indictments.
[13:57.960 --> 14:02.440]  So what's the point of the grand jury if they don't have indictment power?
[14:02.440 --> 14:06.440]  Well, the grand jury can lay the complaint after.
[14:06.440 --> 14:11.560]  They're a private investigatory agency.
[14:11.560 --> 14:14.080]  This is a real investigative grand jury.
[14:14.080 --> 14:17.400]  Well, like I said, what is their power?
[14:17.400 --> 14:18.400]  That I haven't got sorted out yet.
[14:18.400 --> 14:19.400]  Okay.
[14:19.400 --> 14:22.160]  They can investigate all they want, but what is the power?
[14:22.160 --> 14:27.680]  If they can't indict and the indictment isn't enforceable, then it's just a dog and pony
[14:27.680 --> 14:28.680]  show.
[14:28.680 --> 14:29.680]  Well, that's what I've got to work out.
[14:29.680 --> 14:35.400]  You know, that's what it looks like to me, like they're saying, oh yeah, five registered
[14:35.400 --> 14:39.480]  voters can convene a grand jury, citizens grand jury, oh, we can investigate, we can
[14:39.480 --> 14:40.480]  do all these things.
[14:40.480 --> 14:41.480]  Okay.
[14:41.480 --> 14:42.480]  Yeah.
[14:42.480 --> 14:45.920]  Tell the cows come home, but if they can't indict and the indictments aren't enforceable
[14:45.920 --> 14:50.200]  and the prosecutor calling all the shots, then what the heck's the point?
[14:50.200 --> 14:52.440]  It's just like a play act.
[14:52.440 --> 14:54.000]  Haven't finished the research yet.
[14:54.000 --> 14:55.000]  Okay.
[14:55.000 --> 14:58.000]  Well, get on it.
[14:58.000 --> 15:02.840]  Okay, that's what I had, tomorrow I'll have more research done and I'll have more to talk
[15:02.840 --> 15:03.840]  about.
[15:03.840 --> 15:05.320]  I mean, no, this is good.
[15:05.320 --> 15:11.400]  This is good because we have to investigate in depth all these states grand juries and
[15:11.400 --> 15:21.760]  the situation, you know, what their powers are, allegedly that the state grants them
[15:21.760 --> 15:26.400]  or authorizes them, but really this all goes back to constitution.
[15:26.400 --> 15:35.160]  I mean, this goes back to fundamental rights, you know, and the states cannot take away
[15:35.160 --> 15:42.720]  or infringe upon any of the rights that are protected by our US constitution or the bill
[15:42.720 --> 15:46.040]  of rights or the bill of restrictions is what it really is.
[15:46.040 --> 15:47.040]  Okay.
[15:47.040 --> 15:52.200]  They can enumerate additional rights or privileges if they want to, but you know, like Pennsylvania,
[15:52.200 --> 15:54.720]  I'm surprised this hasn't gone to the Supreme court yet.
[15:54.720 --> 15:56.920]  They don't use grand juries in Pennsylvania.
[15:56.920 --> 15:59.280]  I mean, this is ridiculous.
[15:59.280 --> 16:01.240]  People need to be taken this up to the higher levels.
[16:01.240 --> 16:09.920]  I've looked at that and how it shakes out is, is the federal government must indict
[16:09.920 --> 16:14.360]  by grand juries, but the states are not required to, the constitution-
[16:14.360 --> 16:15.360]  No, that is BS.
[16:15.360 --> 16:22.720]  It says no one shall be held accountable for a capital or otherwise infamous crime except
[16:22.720 --> 16:26.800]  on an, upon indictment or presentment of a grand jury.
[16:26.800 --> 16:29.240]  That is what the constitution says.
[16:29.240 --> 16:34.920]  It doesn't say, but only of the federal government, but the states can do whatever they want.
[16:34.920 --> 16:35.920]  Okay.
[16:35.920 --> 16:37.400]  We're going to break.
[16:37.400 --> 16:38.400]  All right.
[16:38.400 --> 16:41.720]  We're going to break and we've got Holland, Ben and Noonoff and Chris Emory on the line
[16:41.720 --> 16:43.000]  from Radio Free Oklahoma.
[16:43.000 --> 16:44.920]  We're going to be speaking with them on the other side.
[16:44.920 --> 16:45.920]  We'll be right back.
[16:45.920 --> 16:58.240]  Rule of Law on Rule of Law Radio.
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[17:55.560 --> 18:24.320]  Look what we've got in the arts, the Christian, no wonder why they don't have the answer.
[18:24.320 --> 18:43.320]  Look what we've got in the arts, the Christian, no wonder why they don't have the answer.
[18:43.320 --> 19:08.320]  Look what we've got in the arts, the Christian, no wonder why they don't have the answer.
[19:08.320 --> 19:26.320]  Look what we've got in the arts, the Christian, no wonder why they don't have the answer.
[19:26.320 --> 19:30.920]  Words of wisdom from my singer, Pat Patterson Martin.
[19:30.920 --> 19:36.640]  Okay, we have Chris Emery and Holland Van Noenhove, very special guests tonight.
[19:36.640 --> 19:40.840]  All of you would please just hold on for a few segments.
[19:40.840 --> 19:47.320]  I wanted to interview Chris and Holland tonight about their background and how they got into
[19:47.320 --> 19:52.400]  researching the Oklahoma City bombing, definitely inside job, precursor to 9-11.
[19:52.400 --> 19:55.520]  All the same people were involved.
[19:55.520 --> 20:01.840]  How you guys met and everything, and Chris, you were telling me at one point, you basically
[20:01.840 --> 20:08.720]  got introduced into all of this and your eyes were open when you uncovered the reality of
[20:08.720 --> 20:14.760]  what happened with the TWA commercial airline explosion over the Atlantic Ocean.
[20:14.760 --> 20:19.040]  So if you could just set the tone for us and give us a little background here and then
[20:19.040 --> 20:20.040]  we'll bring in Holland.
[20:20.040 --> 20:22.680]  Well, I'm flattered to be back on, Deb.
[20:22.680 --> 20:28.500]  Thank you for inviting us on the show and I'm glad to have my great friend and research
[20:28.500 --> 20:32.000]  partner and co-host Holland Van Noenhove on the line with us.
[20:32.000 --> 20:36.520]  I'll just try to get to the chase as quick as I can here.
[20:36.520 --> 20:41.680]  Back in January of 2000, I just happened to step into a Half Vice bookstore.
[20:41.680 --> 20:46.520]  I was living in Arlington, Texas, about two, three miles from the ballpark down there.
[20:46.520 --> 20:52.920]  I was on just a casual shopping trip with my wife at the time and I picked up a book
[20:52.920 --> 20:56.520]  called The Secret Life of Bill Clinton and there were three chapters in that book dealing
[20:56.520 --> 21:01.600]  with the Oklahoma City bombing, Ambrose Evans Pritchard, who is now working out of the Brussels
[21:01.600 --> 21:08.720]  Bureau for the London Telegraph and is their financial guru there, was actually working
[21:08.720 --> 21:12.800]  out of the Washington Bureau at the time that he was writing this book and was not making
[21:12.800 --> 21:16.760]  many friends, if at all, at the White House during the Clinton administration.
[21:16.760 --> 21:22.080]  He did a very thorough research of the case and laid it out in very beautiful fashion
[21:22.080 --> 21:29.840]  in the book and so it really piqued my interest on the Oklahoma City bombing.
[21:29.840 --> 21:34.560]  At the time, I was about six months into the research on the downing of TWA 800, which
[21:34.560 --> 21:41.920]  was the flight that was shot down over Long Island in the third week of July of 1996.
[21:41.920 --> 21:45.880]  I believe it was within a week in Holland, you could correct me on this, within a week
[21:45.880 --> 21:54.960]  of the Atlanta Olympics, so there was a lot of political tension to make sure in retrospect
[21:54.960 --> 21:58.480]  a few years later to find out why it was covered up, that they didn't want the truth on this
[21:58.480 --> 22:02.640]  to come out because it would have been a complete PR disaster for the Clinton administration
[22:02.640 --> 22:07.200]  as well as the Olympics and there's way too many people focusing on the United States
[22:07.200 --> 22:10.200]  at the time.
[22:10.200 --> 22:16.960]  Anyway, long story short, I had the opportunity to actually start working on a film for that
[22:16.960 --> 22:22.440]  and later on, Jack Cashel and several others involved with the research of that case did
[22:22.440 --> 22:27.360]  a beautiful job and I'm glad they went ahead and did their own project, they turned out
[22:27.360 --> 22:30.400]  a real nice piece of work.
[22:30.400 --> 22:34.780]  But getting back to my interest in Oklahoma City, it came to the point of actually choosing
[22:34.780 --> 22:39.000]  to work on that film and traveling back and forth from Dallas to Long Island and interviewing
[22:39.000 --> 22:44.080]  a lot of the victims' family members, there were no survivors, so it would have been pretty
[22:44.080 --> 22:48.520]  much just from their perspective and then of course the NTSB was shutting me out, they
[22:48.520 --> 22:52.840]  didn't want me to get any objective view of what had happened, it was either their way
[22:52.840 --> 22:58.800]  or the highway and then the opportunity came up to look at the Oklahoma City case and like
[22:58.800 --> 23:02.840]  I said, I just bought that book a few weeks later, just out of, I had some spare time
[23:02.840 --> 23:07.040]  on my hands and I got on the internet and found out there was a gentleman in Fort Worth
[23:07.040 --> 23:11.040]  that actually lived about 12 miles from me by the name of Jerry Longspaugh, he actually
[23:11.040 --> 23:16.160]  put a, at the time it was a great piece of work, a two and a half hour video compilation
[23:16.160 --> 23:21.840]  of all of the uncut raw footage that was shot by the boots on the ground camera crew so
[23:21.840 --> 23:28.400]  to speak, the stringers and was fed to CNN, all of the flagship stations for the major
[23:28.400 --> 23:32.720]  networks through Tulsa and Oklahoma City, this stuff was shot within 20 minutes after
[23:32.720 --> 23:38.240]  the bombing, I mean there was debris everywhere, a lot of graphic video that the in-studio
[23:38.240 --> 23:46.560]  crews had no chance to even edit, I mean it was really graphic stuff and it was actually
[23:46.560 --> 23:50.720]  in retrospect you look at it, the government didn't have a chance to even edit any of that,
[23:50.720 --> 23:54.120]  they didn't have a chance to put the official line through, fire department, heat of the
[23:54.120 --> 24:02.160]  moment, the dispatch tapes for instance, all that stuff was just running live on this footage,
[24:02.160 --> 24:06.760]  halfway through the tape I turned the VCR off, I called Jerry up and I remember we talked
[24:06.760 --> 24:10.440]  for nearly three hours, I didn't know him, he didn't know me but we had a common interest
[24:10.440 --> 24:17.400]  right there and we struck a semi-cord, so it was fun, I never looked back and that was
[24:17.400 --> 24:22.920]  in let's see here, January of 2000, I met Charles Key, my first trip to Oklahoma City
[24:22.920 --> 24:30.440]  would have been in June of 2001 and then I actually moved here in January of 2003, two
[24:30.440 --> 24:34.640]  weeks ago was six years ago, it would have marked the sixth year anniversary and I don't
[24:34.640 --> 24:36.280]  regret a minute of it.
[24:36.280 --> 24:42.520]  To jump forward to meeting Holland, we met at a Holland, I think it was at an anti-war
[24:42.520 --> 24:49.180]  demonstration or an anti-war festival, a peace fair, okay, it's at the Memorial Park here
[24:49.180 --> 24:56.120]  in Oklahoma City and it was actually mentioned by Bob Bowman, the Air Force captain who actually
[24:56.120 --> 25:01.280]  has claimed the fame was the 9-11 tour and then he ran for the congressional seat in
[25:01.280 --> 25:06.840]  Florida, he mentioned that particular peace fair in a lot of his travels and his speeches.
[25:06.840 --> 25:10.640]  Holland came up to me and I had a small table at the peace fair selling copies of the final
[25:10.640 --> 25:18.240]  report and if I may just give a shameless plug for the website, www.okcbombing.net,
[25:18.240 --> 25:23.600]  Holland's very familiar with the book and he ended up buying a copy of it, that December
[25:23.600 --> 25:29.120]  Jack Blood from Austin Radio Fame, Jack is actually a very good friend of Holland and
[25:29.120 --> 25:33.960]  I and we really are indebted to him just to kind of go off on a quick tangent here for
[25:33.960 --> 25:38.760]  getting us on the radio, he'd encourage us for several years myself and then got Holland
[25:38.760 --> 25:42.400]  and he guided us so Jack if you're listening we want to thank you again for everything
[25:42.400 --> 25:49.520]  you've done, continue to do for us but anyway, we had met at that fair, he bought the book
[25:49.520 --> 25:54.400]  that December about three and a half months later we were asked to speak at the Conspirathon,
[25:54.400 --> 26:00.120]  one of the I think three or four that were held and it was Conspirathon 05, Jack drove
[26:00.120 --> 26:04.680]  up from Austin to join us in Oklahoma City the following year we had, my gosh Holland
[26:04.680 --> 26:08.880]  I think we needed an agent to control all of our booking and travels and everything
[26:08.880 --> 26:14.760]  we've done, we went to Tulsa together to speak on the case, we had let's see in January
[26:14.760 --> 26:20.040]  there we spoke at OU put together the Oklahoma City Truth Convergence, Oklahoma Truth Convergence
[26:20.040 --> 26:26.640]  then it was on to Tulsa, then I flew to Chicago, then to New York, to Denver, to Boulder, back
[26:26.640 --> 26:33.440]  to Oklahoma City in December so 06 was an incredible year and so anyway having said
[26:33.440 --> 26:37.680]  that Holland if you want to take it from there.
[26:37.680 --> 26:43.440]  Well when I started I guess the seeds of I guess we call alternative thinking were planted
[26:43.440 --> 26:48.120]  in my head early on when I was 14 years old I picked up a book out of the science fiction
[26:48.120 --> 26:55.160]  rack at the book store called Illuminatus by Robert Anton Wilson, of course it's fiction
[26:55.160 --> 27:02.600]  but it planted the seeds of there could be a hidden history behind events, behind politics
[27:02.600 --> 27:07.880]  that we the people, we the masses are not, are purposely being kept from, I just kind
[27:07.880 --> 27:13.080]  of planted the seed and as I got older and I started looking, digging behind some things
[27:13.080 --> 27:18.320]  I started seeing that this fictional book Illuminatus was actually making more sense
[27:18.320 --> 27:22.760]  than what was presented to us as the news, as history especially what was presented to
[27:22.760 --> 27:23.760]  me in school.
[27:23.760 --> 27:29.600]  When I was 19 years old I joined the Marine Corps mainly just out of boredom, I really
[27:29.600 --> 27:38.600]  didn't want to get a job and it was, that was 1995, later that year I was at a mess
[27:38.600 --> 27:45.760]  hall eating breakfast and I look up the TV monitor and I see Dilkulm City bombing taking,
[27:45.760 --> 27:52.800]  well not taking place but the immediate aftermath and of course I immediately, I was still in
[27:52.800 --> 28:02.680]  a state of shock and the tidbits of you know hidden facts started coming out pretty early
[28:02.680 --> 28:08.640]  out of that and even though I was stationed 2,000 miles away in California and didn't
[28:08.640 --> 28:12.840]  have access to the computer, I was still able to pick up tidbits through the alternative
[28:12.840 --> 28:19.240]  press, through some of the book stores I forget in California and I pretty much came to the
[28:19.240 --> 28:24.920]  exclusion pretty early that something was iffy with Dilkulm City bombing and in fact
[28:24.920 --> 28:31.880]  there was one incident, it was after I was cleaning my weapon after shooting at the firing
[28:31.880 --> 28:35.960]  range and I was talking to a couple of other Marines and I was telling them about the Dilkulm
[28:35.960 --> 28:40.280]  City bombing, some of the stuff I picked up like the seismograph picking up two different
[28:40.280 --> 28:50.200]  explosions, other facts going on and of course General Benton Parton's reports on the effects
[28:50.200 --> 28:55.120]  of interior explosives versus the official story of a ammonium nitrate truck bomb doing
[28:55.120 --> 28:56.120]  the damage.
[28:56.120 --> 29:01.960]  Anyways, these two Marine Corps officers were cleaning their rifles at a table nearby and
[29:01.960 --> 29:07.640]  they heard me and they came over and they immediately started laying down the line and
[29:07.640 --> 29:12.400]  you know pretty much making me shut up and really the fact is I couldn't argue with them,
[29:12.400 --> 29:13.400]  they were officers.
[29:13.400 --> 29:18.800]  I was risking insubordination so I just basically had to shut my mouth and just let them say
[29:18.800 --> 29:25.040]  their spiel and let them go away but I really planted the seed that incident of never again
[29:25.040 --> 29:29.880]  at least until when I get out of the Marine Corps am I going to shut up, once I'm a free
[29:29.880 --> 29:35.400]  man I don't have to shut up anymore, I can say what I want and I don't have to worry
[29:35.400 --> 29:36.400]  about consequences, hopefully.
[29:36.400 --> 29:41.160]  Alright, I love it, I'm not going to shut up anymore, neither are we.
[29:41.160 --> 29:46.240]  Holland, Chris, hold on until the next segment, we're going to break, this is the rule of
[29:46.240 --> 29:57.880]  law on ruleoflawradio.com.
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[30:01.900 --> 30:02.900]  to buy.
[30:02.900 --> 30:07.400]  With the value of the dollar, risks of inflation, geopolitical uncertainties and instability
[30:07.400 --> 30:10.920]  in rural financial systems, I see gold going up much higher.
[30:10.920 --> 30:14.200]  Hi, I'm Tim Fry at Roberts and Robert Brokerage.
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[30:21.880 --> 30:26.880]  from a brokerage that specialized in the precious metals market since 1977.
[30:26.880 --> 30:30.600]  If you are new to precious metals we will happily provide you with the information you
[30:30.600 --> 30:35.280]  need to make an informed decision whether or not you choose to purchase from us.
[30:35.280 --> 30:39.400]  Also Roberts and Robert Brokerage values your privacy and will always advise you in the
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[30:46.840 --> 30:47.840]  payment.
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[32:21.640 --> 32:50.200]  We are Roberts and Robert Brokerage, 800-874-9760.
[32:50.200 --> 33:03.600]  All right, Julie, she well gully.
[33:03.600 --> 33:06.280]  She only wants helicopter Bernanke.
[33:06.280 --> 33:12.080]  That's a little twisted love song Pat and I wrote about helicopter Bernanke.
[33:12.080 --> 33:15.120]  Okay, at any rate, a little bit off topic there.
[33:15.120 --> 33:20.560]  I wanted to go back Chris to the TWA explosion.
[33:20.560 --> 33:25.400]  We've got Dan Reel from Connecticut on the line and he just told me on the break that
[33:25.400 --> 33:33.720]  his wife saw the explosion, saw the plane explode and so Chris, I wanted you to start
[33:33.720 --> 33:38.120]  off and just explain to our listeners just what's the deal with the TWA.
[33:38.120 --> 33:41.640]  I mean it's a vague memory in my mind.
[33:41.640 --> 33:49.360]  It happened so long ago, this was long before I started getting into false flag ops or government
[33:49.360 --> 33:53.960]  conspiracies or 9-11 or anything and so when you told me about it the first time I was
[33:53.960 --> 33:55.800]  just flabbergasted.
[33:55.800 --> 34:01.860]  So if you could just please give us an overview for our listeners who may have no idea what
[34:01.860 --> 34:07.640]  happened with this TWA commercial airliner that apparently our US military shot down
[34:07.640 --> 34:14.400]  as it was an accident because they were running some drill or something and then they tried
[34:14.400 --> 34:15.400]  to cover it up.
[34:15.400 --> 34:20.040]  So can you please explain and then we'll go to Dan in Connecticut because his wife was
[34:20.040 --> 34:21.040]  an eyewitness.
[34:21.040 --> 34:23.480]  Sure, thank you Deb.
[34:23.480 --> 34:26.960]  The best that I got out of the research that I did and I was on it for about a year and
[34:26.960 --> 34:31.320]  a half and then I had to switch gears and pretty much make a clean cut for the most
[34:31.320 --> 34:36.240]  part to start to put a screenplay together for the Oklahoma City Bombing documentary
[34:36.240 --> 34:40.040]  film that we continue to work on to today.
[34:40.040 --> 34:44.240]  Anyway I pulled up my email list and there are five names on here that I think the folks
[34:44.240 --> 34:49.760]  should if you really want a good concise review of what happened the very first website I
[34:49.760 --> 34:57.320]  would recommend would be www.raylair.com.
[34:57.320 --> 35:02.200]  If you log on to that it will give you pretty much a synopsis all the way from day one on
[35:02.200 --> 35:09.120]  the official story and what was actually observed by both civilian and military government employees
[35:09.120 --> 35:16.440]  and including Air Italia pilots, National Guard helicopter pilots, there were Aerolingus
[35:16.440 --> 35:19.680]  I believe from Ireland was having an inbound flight coming in.
[35:19.680 --> 35:25.200]  What it was, it was an outbound flight, it was on I believe July 21, 1996, was outbound
[35:25.200 --> 35:31.160]  from JFK airport flying over Long Island, taking off and going to direct flight into
[35:31.160 --> 35:35.760]  Charles de Gaulle, it was actually going to Paris and it was shot down I believe about
[35:35.760 --> 35:40.920]  eight minutes into the flight and it was climbing at about 400 miles an hour and it was on ascent
[35:40.920 --> 35:41.920]  versus descent.
[35:41.920 --> 35:48.600]  So there were over 280 witnesses seeing that there were actually two objects going up ascending
[35:48.600 --> 35:52.520]  toward the plane which is clearly two different projectiles.
[35:52.520 --> 35:58.480]  What we have surmised and from a retired Air Force General he actually designed the ordnance
[35:58.480 --> 36:02.760]  that took down the plane, he was empowered with it, he had top secret clearance of the
[36:02.760 --> 36:09.400]  Pentagon, he worked for the armament lab at the Pentagon so this guy knew what actually
[36:09.400 --> 36:12.080]  took the plane down to the best of his knowledge.
[36:12.080 --> 36:19.000]  There was a fleet both surface and subsurface boats, submarines doing an exercise off of
[36:19.000 --> 36:25.480]  the coast of New York that evening and it was a security perimeter that miscommunication
[36:25.480 --> 36:29.720]  between air traffic control out of Boston and the various air traffic control offices
[36:29.720 --> 36:33.000]  up and down the East Coast and the US Navy.
[36:33.000 --> 36:37.800]  They had failed to give the air traffic control the correct ordnance of where the civilian
[36:37.800 --> 36:39.960]  aircraft could fly in and out of.
[36:39.960 --> 36:43.680]  This particular TWA flight breached that security perimeter.
[36:43.680 --> 36:49.160]  It was taken by the radar that we found out from the best of our knowledge now, we don't
[36:49.160 --> 36:52.640]  have this from the US Navy, God forbid that they give us the truth.
[36:52.640 --> 37:00.040]  But what we surmise is that the US Navy detected the TWA-800 as a blip on the radar screen
[37:00.040 --> 37:06.760]  as one of their drone missiles that were supposed to be launched from a submarine and then the
[37:06.760 --> 37:10.440]  surface boats were to shoot it down and vice versa.
[37:10.440 --> 37:14.760]  And it was a horrific, horrific mistaken identity situation.
[37:14.760 --> 37:21.760]  The plane was full of passengers including I believe 37 to 38 TWA employees flying to
[37:21.760 --> 37:26.640]  called Deadhead as non-ref passengers and their children going to Paris.
[37:26.640 --> 37:30.360]  There were several field trip, high school field trip groups on there and then of course
[37:30.360 --> 37:34.640]  some government officials from the French government were going back home.
[37:34.640 --> 37:39.920]  So anyway, the really peculiar thing about this is that Ray Lair was able to obtain under
[37:39.920 --> 37:46.160]  Freedom of Information Act lawsuits, the radar tapes from the air traffic control offices
[37:46.160 --> 37:53.400]  showing the naval vessels both on the surface and below were leaving, not going toward but
[37:53.400 --> 37:56.360]  leaving the scene of the crime.
[37:56.360 --> 37:57.360]  Very peculiar.
[37:57.360 --> 38:02.720]  Yeah because they were trying to get the hell away from there as fast as they could so they
[38:02.720 --> 38:05.920]  wouldn't get the blame.
[38:05.920 --> 38:10.200]  And there was actually civilian watercraft coming toward the scene doing whatever they
[38:10.200 --> 38:15.000]  could on search and rescue, trying to rescue debris, no survivors of course.
[38:15.000 --> 38:20.040]  And at the time I was dating, my ex-wife and I were actually dating at the time.
[38:20.040 --> 38:25.160]  She was working for TWA and she sat me down shortly after it started working on the case
[38:25.160 --> 38:29.960]  and said look, a lot of my co-workers were either transferred to the Dallas station where
[38:29.960 --> 38:30.960]  she worked.
[38:30.960 --> 38:32.640]  There were only two gates of DFW at TWA at the time.
[38:32.640 --> 38:35.560]  Of course they're no longer business, they were bought by American.
[38:35.560 --> 38:39.120]  But at the time she said that the people she was working with came from the service hangar
[38:39.120 --> 38:45.520]  in Kansas City and let's see, Lambert Field which is the St. Louis hub for TWA and they
[38:45.520 --> 38:47.120]  were told pretty much to shut up.
[38:47.120 --> 38:53.000]  Now there's a really odd confluence of the political as well as the employee powers wanting
[38:53.000 --> 38:54.400]  to get the truth on this.
[38:54.400 --> 39:00.000]  You had the airline pilots association, you had the flight attendants union and then you
[39:00.000 --> 39:01.680]  had the mechanics union.
[39:01.680 --> 39:04.400]  The mechanics especially knew what happened to that plane.
[39:04.400 --> 39:09.240]  They were under 47, I believe at the time, 42 or 43 747s in the fleet.
[39:09.240 --> 39:11.320]  So these mechanics knew these planes inside and out.
[39:11.320 --> 39:15.720]  They had to dismantle them literally from the wheels up and go through them and overhaul
[39:15.720 --> 39:18.400]  them so they knew the capabilities of that plane.
[39:18.400 --> 39:19.960]  They knew it was shot down.
[39:19.960 --> 39:25.760]  The official story of a center fuel tank explosion is complete garbage from A to Z that simply
[39:25.760 --> 39:27.680]  doesn't hold water.
[39:27.680 --> 39:34.040]  And even the pilots that flew that plane in from Greece, Athens, Greece the night before
[39:34.040 --> 39:38.480]  and it was sitting on the tarmac at JFK said there was only 10% fuel in that tank when
[39:38.480 --> 39:39.480]  it took off.
[39:39.480 --> 39:44.080]  They were supposed to refuel in Ireland and then go over that part of the globe into Paris.
[39:44.080 --> 39:47.640]  So anyway there was a servo pump that emptied that tank out, 10% fuel.
[39:47.640 --> 39:50.960]  So there's no way that it could have exploded, plus there's a temperature control in there
[39:50.960 --> 39:54.040]  to keep it around 52 to 58 degrees.
[39:54.040 --> 39:58.760]  The jet A fuel that they have in there is a consistency of jelly when it burns.
[39:58.760 --> 40:05.160]  It can't go any hotter than that because it would literally be combustible to the point
[40:05.160 --> 40:06.160]  of beyond safety.
[40:06.160 --> 40:09.040]  Anyway, there's a lot of safety measures put into that.
[40:09.040 --> 40:11.940]  That particular center fuel tank did not explode.
[40:11.940 --> 40:17.360]  The projectile that hit first that came into that plane, and this is bona fide by FBI agents,
[40:17.360 --> 40:22.640]  good FBI agents that came forward later, it saw the debris that was brought up from the
[40:22.640 --> 40:23.640]  floor of the ocean.
[40:23.640 --> 40:26.640]  And by the way, I'm not going to try to get off on a tangent, I just want to give you
[40:26.640 --> 40:31.240]  some bullet points and then we can take your comments from your caller.
[40:31.240 --> 40:36.480]  The initial crack team from the FBI and the NTSB that came in to map the debris field
[40:36.480 --> 40:40.320]  on the bottom of the ocean actually mapped it in reverse.
[40:40.320 --> 40:41.320]  They were lying.
[40:41.320 --> 40:43.400]  They started lying from the get-go.
[40:43.400 --> 40:47.240]  What they mapped out was showing the plane coming in from Paris as opposed to outbound
[40:47.240 --> 40:48.240]  to Paris.
[40:48.240 --> 40:49.240]  Huge lie right there.
[40:49.240 --> 40:51.760]  Well, what kind of a boondoggle is that?
[40:51.760 --> 40:55.720]  Well, you know, history, they're repeating history, so to speak, because we found out
[40:55.720 --> 40:58.400]  later that's exactly what they did to the local and the city, and they were just lying
[40:58.400 --> 40:59.400]  from the word go.
[40:59.400 --> 41:03.360]  I'm not saying all of the FBI agents did that, but the ones in charge did that.
[41:03.360 --> 41:05.160]  So that was a huge red flag right there.
[41:05.160 --> 41:08.960]  The second part was that when it was rebuilt at the Calverton hangar, it was an abandoned
[41:08.960 --> 41:12.400]  air hangar in Calverton, New Jersey, when they were putting this thing together, you
[41:12.400 --> 41:16.520]  could clearly see an entrance hole between rows 17 and 19.
[41:16.520 --> 41:20.640]  On engine number two, if you look on the, you count from right to left, one would be
[41:20.640 --> 41:25.200]  the outboard, two next to the fuselage, three on the left side of the fuselage, four out
[41:25.200 --> 41:27.440]  in the outboard on the left side.
[41:27.440 --> 41:31.680]  Just below the calling where number two engine was next to the fuselage, the projectile came
[41:31.680 --> 41:38.960]  up and it actually pushed a thousand gallon drinking of water, looked like an excelling
[41:38.960 --> 41:43.600]  torch canister, except it was stainless steel, was strapped to the side of the fuselage.
[41:43.600 --> 41:47.760]  That was pushed through the fuselage, cut the plane in half like a meat cleaver.
[41:47.760 --> 41:50.760]  Whoever was in those rows had absolutely no idea what had hit them.
[41:50.760 --> 41:52.040]  Now that isn't bad enough.
[41:52.040 --> 41:56.000]  Their engines, the computers are still telling the engines to full thrust forward, that's
[41:56.000 --> 41:57.000]  ascending.
[41:57.000 --> 42:01.200]  The front of the plane is going down, the second missile that came out, and this particular
[42:01.200 --> 42:05.480]  general called it a backstop, the first one doesn't take it down, the second one will.
[42:05.480 --> 42:09.960]  Went through the wheel calling and the, it pushed the wheel housing up between the first
[42:09.960 --> 42:11.840]  class cabin and into the cockpit.
[42:11.840 --> 42:13.560]  That's what finished off the plane.
[42:13.560 --> 42:17.080]  So for a center fuel tank explosion to take place, it's garbage.
[42:17.080 --> 42:20.080]  And I'm going to call out one gentleman in particular, James Kahlstrom, who was with
[42:20.080 --> 42:25.200]  the NTSB at the time, last I heard he's the head of the Homeland Security in New York
[42:25.200 --> 42:28.880]  State and Hillary Clinton had a lot to do with his appointment.
[42:28.880 --> 42:34.080]  Mr. Kahlstrom, you, and I'm going to refrain from using any foul language on this, but
[42:34.080 --> 42:36.760]  this guy is the lowest of the low.
[42:36.760 --> 42:42.480]  He lied through his teeth, he obfuscated and he obstructed every single measure of objective
[42:42.480 --> 42:44.560]  investigation on this case.
[42:44.560 --> 42:49.240]  And he should be indicted on corruption charges covering up a murder on that.
[42:49.240 --> 42:52.000]  And why he is holding an office yesterday.
[42:52.000 --> 42:55.800]  So anyway, I can go on and on, but I'm going to, Colin, you want to make some comments
[42:55.800 --> 42:56.800]  on that?
[42:56.800 --> 42:57.800]  Colin, what was that?
[42:57.800 --> 43:04.320]  A point on FBI agent, special agent in charge Kahlstrom was the initial assumption was terrorism
[43:04.320 --> 43:10.880]  was some kind of shoot down because the initial report coming out of TW 800 indicated a missile
[43:10.880 --> 43:15.400]  attack, which is a lesson learned, you should always try to pay attention to the first eyewitness
[43:15.400 --> 43:18.240]  reports before it gets manhandled.
[43:18.240 --> 43:22.120]  The initial assumption was a terrorist attack.
[43:22.120 --> 43:30.720]  Once the department of justice lawyer, Jamie Gorelick, met with Kahlstrom after that, immediately
[43:30.720 --> 43:36.920]  after that meeting, it changed towards focusing the investigation on some kind of mechanical
[43:36.920 --> 43:37.920]  accident.
[43:37.920 --> 43:43.520]  Now I mentioned that because Jamie Gorelick later on, actually before that in 1995 had
[43:43.520 --> 43:51.040]  been the lead person in manhandling the Oklahoma city bombing case, talking directly to law
[43:51.040 --> 43:57.800]  enforcement and investigative officials here in Oklahoma, trying to steer that story towards
[43:57.800 --> 43:58.800]  lies and obfuscation.
[43:58.800 --> 44:03.720]  So I mean, they tend to use these same people over and over and they tend to rise in the
[44:03.720 --> 44:10.000]  ranks as they gain, you know, basically they gain credence through their skills at cover
[44:10.000 --> 44:11.000]  up.
[44:11.000 --> 44:17.600]  So Chris, this all was because of a war game, okay?
[44:17.600 --> 44:19.640]  Some kind of a military drill.
[44:19.640 --> 44:20.640]  Yes, yes.
[44:20.640 --> 44:25.640]  So that's the best that we can surmise and this is not coming from just me as a, you
[44:25.640 --> 44:28.560]  know, civilian amateur filmmaker at the time.
[44:28.560 --> 44:33.480]  I mean, we're talking the top military officers, they were actually a rear admiral that came
[44:33.480 --> 44:35.720]  forward and said, look, we know what happened.
[44:35.720 --> 44:40.320]  I mean, these guys are trained to sense these accidents, they're trained to do search and
[44:40.320 --> 44:45.960]  rescue and recover later on after they know that, you know, there's only deceased to recover.
[44:45.960 --> 44:50.960]  So they know how to call the shots on this and every one of them, we were told to shut
[44:50.960 --> 44:52.620]  up or they were ignored.
[44:52.620 --> 44:54.760]  So I mean, we're talking well over 300 people.
[44:54.760 --> 44:59.560]  If you get onto that website and I do have a couple other names here, folks can Google
[44:59.560 --> 45:03.640]  these names and like I said, I don't want to belabor the point, I know you've got callers
[45:03.640 --> 45:04.640]  here.
[45:04.640 --> 45:07.400]  Let me get on, let me see my screen here real quick.
[45:07.400 --> 45:13.240]  Well, Chris, while you're looking that up, I just have to say this is absolutely absurd
[45:13.240 --> 45:14.240]  and disgusting.
[45:14.240 --> 45:24.280]  I mean, we're supposedly the most powerful, you know, technologically sophisticated military
[45:24.280 --> 45:34.000]  in the world and they can't tell the difference between a blip from a drone and a commercial
[45:34.000 --> 45:36.200]  airline jet.
[45:36.200 --> 45:40.120]  I just can't, I'm sorry, I just can't believe that.
[45:40.120 --> 45:46.960]  I just cannot believe that something inside me says this was not an accident.
[45:46.960 --> 45:50.360]  There were some people on that plane that they were trying to murder.
[45:50.360 --> 45:59.800]  I just can't believe that they cannot and were not tracking every single flight that
[45:59.800 --> 46:06.120]  was going in and out of the whole East Coast on that morning and every single passenger
[46:06.120 --> 46:10.120]  on every single plane, come on.
[46:10.120 --> 46:14.480]  It was in the evening and it was dark out, of course, there were no visual sights, it
[46:14.480 --> 46:17.680]  was all pretty much radar and then of course, you have the tail lights and the aft and the
[46:17.680 --> 46:19.040]  wing lights to work with.
[46:19.040 --> 46:22.960]  But when you have air lingus, you have Air Italia, you have National Guard helicopters
[46:22.960 --> 46:23.960]  coming in and out.
[46:23.960 --> 46:29.120]  I mean, it's like a major highway except you're 18 to 22,000 feet up in the air.
[46:29.120 --> 46:32.520]  And what we found out, even James, and I'm going to give a couple of other names out
[46:32.520 --> 46:37.400]  here if your listeners want to Google these names, James Sanders, TWA 800, if you Google
[46:37.400 --> 46:41.640]  that, it was his wife, she was actually a flight attendant with TWA at the time.
[46:41.640 --> 46:47.440]  They were brought into court and charged with obstruction of an investigation, but what
[46:47.440 --> 46:52.880]  they did is they recovered the seat covers from those particular rows between 17 and
[46:52.880 --> 46:53.880]  19.
[46:53.880 --> 46:57.200]  This is the first class cabin on a huge airship.
[46:57.200 --> 47:01.640]  And they found out that the seat covers had, they were burned and on that was the rocket
[47:01.640 --> 47:06.880]  propellant from the missiles, which Teledyne mistakenly faxed, they were thinking they
[47:06.880 --> 47:11.800]  were sending it to a government office near Calverton Hangar and it ended up having a
[47:11.800 --> 47:16.040]  civilian receive it by mistake in his office, in his house.
[47:16.040 --> 47:18.000]  They mixed up the fax machine number.
[47:18.000 --> 47:24.000]  So anyway, this document from Teledyne out in California, which designed these missiles,
[47:24.000 --> 47:27.160]  was a clear indictment to show, look, you know, not only do we know
[47:27.160 --> 47:31.120]  what hit the plane, the residues on the back of the seat covers.
[47:31.120 --> 47:36.520]  Now, those seat covers were found in the dumpster behind the Calverton Hangar, clearly a destruction
[47:36.520 --> 47:39.400]  of critical evidence in a crime scene.
[47:39.400 --> 47:43.400]  And like I said, the initial group of FBI agency, they were ordered where they took
[47:43.400 --> 47:46.480]  it upon themselves to just have free will.
[47:46.480 --> 47:48.520]  They were running fast and loose with this information.
[47:48.520 --> 47:50.080]  It was atrocious.
[47:50.080 --> 47:53.560]  James Sanders wrote, I believe, one of not two excellent books on the case.
[47:53.560 --> 47:55.960]  He co-produced this very good video.
[47:55.960 --> 48:01.160]  If you want to Google YouTube, his name, you'll find out a great treasure trove of information
[48:01.160 --> 48:02.640]  between him and Ray Lair.
[48:02.640 --> 48:05.120]  John Clark was Ray Lair's attorney.
[48:05.120 --> 48:08.880]  Ray sued the CIA, the NTSB and the FBI.
[48:08.880 --> 48:12.640]  And Holland, it reminds me a lot of what Jesse Trenet is going through on his brother's murder.
[48:12.640 --> 48:14.760]  You have the same cast of characters.
[48:14.760 --> 48:19.240]  Ray is doing it out of the federal court in L.A., Jesse is doing it out of federal court
[48:19.240 --> 48:20.240]  in Salt Lake City.
[48:20.240 --> 48:24.440]  In fact, they corresponded over the emails together and I put them together and I believe
[48:24.440 --> 48:28.760]  they were able to compare notes to save each other a lot of grief and a lot of court time
[48:28.760 --> 48:32.160]  to figure out what to do with these folks.
[48:32.160 --> 48:36.280]  Now I do have to, there's one caveat I want to say that there were a lot of very good,
[48:36.280 --> 48:40.040]  a lot, a very good FBI agency came forward and helped Mr. Sanders with this case.
[48:40.040 --> 48:44.320]  So please don't take me saying that the entire force is wrong.
[48:44.320 --> 48:47.280]  There were some people that were very upset on how that case was handled, just like there
[48:47.280 --> 48:49.280]  were with Oklahoma City.
[48:49.280 --> 48:54.560]  And then Robert Donaldson, who continued the research, his brother was a former commander
[48:54.560 --> 48:56.080]  in the Navy.
[48:56.080 --> 48:59.760]  And if it wasn't for Commander Donaldson, who had since passed away of cancer and his
[48:59.760 --> 49:05.240]  family to take up the torch, so to speak, and run with this case, James Sanders and
[49:05.240 --> 49:06.680]  Ray would not be where they are today.
[49:06.680 --> 49:08.960]  So those are five of the key people.
[49:08.960 --> 49:12.080]  And then like I said, there's, if you were to line these people up, there would be several
[49:12.080 --> 49:15.520]  hundred standing in line wanting to get the truth out on these from retired to active
[49:15.520 --> 49:16.640]  military officers.
[49:16.640 --> 49:25.760]  Well, well, Chris and, and, and Holland and, and Randy has, has kind of signed off for
[49:25.760 --> 49:26.760]  the evening.
[49:26.760 --> 49:27.760]  He's been traveling.
[49:27.760 --> 49:32.520]  He's very, very tired and a little bit under the weather, but if he's listening, I want
[49:32.520 --> 49:36.360]  him to consider this and I will bring this up to him.
[49:36.360 --> 49:42.720]  You started talking about Teledyne and you know, we are, you know, Randy and I tried
[49:42.720 --> 49:48.440]  to bring public officials before the court in front of grand juries and hold them to
[49:48.440 --> 49:50.960]  task and make them be responsible.
[49:50.960 --> 49:55.880]  But I'm starting to get to the point that, especially in situations like this, I want
[49:55.880 --> 50:04.360]  to start holding the contractors responsible, the defense contractors, the corporation that
[50:04.360 --> 50:10.680]  made the bombs, that made the missile, that cut those planes in half, that plane in half
[50:10.680 --> 50:12.360]  and kill all those people.
[50:12.360 --> 50:18.160]  I want to hold them responsible in addition to the government officials, if possible,
[50:18.160 --> 50:23.720]  and sue the living crap out of Teledyne and all these other defense contractors, because
[50:23.720 --> 50:28.960]  they're the ones that are making these weapons that are destroying people.
[50:28.960 --> 50:32.880]  Well, here's an interesting twist to that whole thing and I'm glad you brought that
[50:32.880 --> 50:33.880]  up.
[50:33.880 --> 50:39.360]  When I talked to my ex about this, she says that TWA did not have, they weren't sued at
[50:39.360 --> 50:43.880]  all, there was not one suit filed against the airline, because immediately after this
[50:43.880 --> 50:49.120]  happened the legal counsel and the engineers, the top engineers from TWA and Boeing, who
[50:49.120 --> 50:55.360]  is the manufacturer of the plane, got together, TWA flew their top people up to Seattle and
[50:55.360 --> 50:58.840]  they sat down for a good two weeks and they went through this thing and they went from
[50:58.840 --> 51:02.080]  the back of the plane to the front and they said there's absolutely no way this thing
[51:02.080 --> 51:03.460]  could have happened.
[51:03.460 --> 51:07.040]  And even with the limited information they were getting from the FBI, these guys aren't
[51:07.040 --> 51:08.040]  dumb, they're professionals.
[51:08.040 --> 51:11.160]  I mean, it's their mandate, every day they show up for work, they've got to know what's
[51:11.160 --> 51:15.240]  going on on those planes, and it's the welfare of the crew and the passengers, it's the sake
[51:15.240 --> 51:16.240]  here.
[51:16.240 --> 51:20.080]  Boeing was never sued, TWA was never sued, because they knew that they weren't liable
[51:20.080 --> 51:21.080]  for this.
[51:21.080 --> 51:23.680]  Well, did anyone ever get sued?
[51:23.680 --> 51:24.680]  What's that now?
[51:24.680 --> 51:28.080]  Did anyone ever get sued or criminally prosecuted over this?
[51:28.080 --> 51:32.400]  I don't know, I believe there were certain lawsuits that were filed against the US government,
[51:32.400 --> 51:34.880]  but I have no idea on the progress on that.
[51:34.880 --> 51:38.960]  James Sanders would be the one to contact on that, but I know for sure that the manufacturer
[51:38.960 --> 51:40.720]  and the airline never got sued.
[51:40.720 --> 51:43.520]  That is very peculiar when you have a certain fuel tech explosion.
[51:43.520 --> 51:47.520]  I mean, they could have been held for billions and billions of dollars in liability and they
[51:47.520 --> 51:50.040]  weren't because they knew that they were in the right.
[51:50.040 --> 51:53.760]  So this is clearly a criminal investigation that all the arrows, as they see, are pointing
[51:53.760 --> 51:57.480]  back to the US Navy and the NTSB.
[51:57.480 --> 52:01.880]  And I know that there were certain, this particular maneuver that evening, the shots were being
[52:01.880 --> 52:05.040]  called out of the situation room in the White House.
[52:05.040 --> 52:06.040]  Well, of course.
[52:06.040 --> 52:10.040]  That's a whole other level of nefarious activity.
[52:10.040 --> 52:15.200]  They knew immediately what had happened, like you said, as soon as TWA 800 exploded, was
[52:15.200 --> 52:16.480]  shot down.
[52:16.480 --> 52:21.400]  All US Navy warships in the area immediately steered a course directly away from the scene.
[52:21.400 --> 52:24.360]  They knew immediately that they had messed up.
[52:24.360 --> 52:25.360]  Oh my gosh.
[52:25.360 --> 52:28.560]  Listen, at this point, I want to bring up Dan in Connecticut.
[52:28.560 --> 52:30.160]  His wife was an eyewitness.
[52:30.160 --> 52:35.240]  Can you please either put your wife on the phone or relay the story?
[52:35.240 --> 52:40.880]  Apparently, your wife was an eyewitness to this horrific event of our own military shooting
[52:40.880 --> 52:47.760]  down a passenger aircraft in mistake over some dumb war game.
[52:47.760 --> 52:51.480]  I'm going to relay the story here.
[52:51.480 --> 52:56.960]  I just want to mention, I would like to give you some contact information off here concerning
[52:56.960 --> 53:02.160]  the case I was calling in about that I didn't email to you yet.
[53:02.160 --> 53:08.920]  But aside from that, Plainfield, Connecticut is approximately 35 to 40 miles north of New
[53:08.920 --> 53:15.440]  London, which is on the shoreline of Long Island Sound.
[53:15.440 --> 53:23.560]  Her and I'm told her father also witnessed a bright orange explosion toward south southwest
[53:23.560 --> 53:31.680]  of here, which was just a little bit over the horizon, which a bright orange explosion,
[53:31.680 --> 53:35.560]  that's somebody shooting at something.
[53:35.560 --> 53:42.040]  The only reason that's keyed up is because he used to be somebody that was on a sub.
[53:42.040 --> 53:47.520]  When you're on a sub, you know what high explosive weapons do when you fire, say, a missile or
[53:47.520 --> 53:49.320]  something or something like that.
[53:49.320 --> 53:50.320]  Okay.
[53:50.320 --> 53:58.120]  So it was visible from here, and by the way, where I am right now, they lived at a house
[53:58.120 --> 54:03.840]  that is probably about 100 feet higher in elevation than it is from here.
[54:03.840 --> 54:12.400]  And about how far are, about how far was she from the actual explosion to see this?
[54:12.400 --> 54:14.400]  Probably about 40 miles.
[54:14.400 --> 54:15.400]  40 miles.
[54:15.400 --> 54:16.400]  Okay, Chris, 40.
[54:16.400 --> 54:19.400]  And it was bright orange.
[54:19.400 --> 54:20.400]  40 miles.
[54:20.400 --> 54:23.280]  I'm sorry, a little bit of jet fuel.
[54:23.280 --> 54:27.880]  I don't see how it could make an explosion that could be seen for 40 miles.
[54:27.880 --> 54:29.280]  It just don't make no sense.
[54:29.280 --> 54:30.280]  Just like kerosene.
[54:30.280 --> 54:33.520]  Oh yeah, a little bit of kerosene and bring down the World Trade Center.
[54:33.520 --> 54:34.520]  Give me a break.
[54:34.520 --> 54:40.440]  I mean, it wasn't that, you know, I mean, you got to consider Connecticut is not exactly
[54:40.440 --> 54:42.320]  high up.
[54:42.320 --> 54:48.540]  We are really low in elevation with the exception of northern Connecticut, which is pretty much
[54:48.540 --> 54:50.040]  where we are.
[54:50.040 --> 54:56.640]  The highest elevation around this area is Jeremoth Hill, which is Rhode Island.
[54:56.640 --> 54:59.320]  And that's maybe like a thousand feet up.
[54:59.320 --> 55:03.200]  So we're really low, you know, concerning sea level.
[55:03.200 --> 55:04.760]  Right, right.
[55:04.760 --> 55:08.400]  One of the key things that we have folks to work with is not only eyewitness testimony,
[55:08.400 --> 55:12.520]  but what was actually entered into the record by the FBI and how they distorted and witness
[55:12.520 --> 55:13.520]  after witness.
[55:13.520 --> 55:18.280]  And we're talking, like I said, over 210, the last count that we have.
[55:18.280 --> 55:21.140]  Your FBI 302 witness statements were completely distorted.
[55:21.140 --> 55:25.800]  They found out later after the fact when the NTSB had their dog and pony official hearings
[55:25.800 --> 55:26.800]  on this.
[55:26.800 --> 55:32.480]  They went back and asked for their statements and they found out number one, their testimony
[55:32.480 --> 55:37.040]  was completely adulterated and their signatures in some cases were forged or the 302 statements
[55:37.040 --> 55:39.520]  were completely destroyed or never to be seen again.
[55:39.520 --> 55:42.040]  So there is no objectivity there.
[55:42.040 --> 55:43.040]  That's right.
[55:43.040 --> 55:48.040]  Standard SOP, the FBI forbids agents from recording witness interviews.
[55:48.040 --> 55:53.440]  They rely upon 302 statements that are entirely written by the agent, his interpretation of
[55:53.440 --> 55:54.440]  the conversation.
[55:54.440 --> 55:58.360]  They actually forbid recording of eyewitness statements.
[55:58.360 --> 56:02.640]  So that leaves a lot of room for manhandling evidence.
[56:02.640 --> 56:03.640]  We saw that time and time again.
[56:03.640 --> 56:04.640]  They'll go to city bombing.
[56:04.640 --> 56:09.080]  I mean, the FBI manhandling 302 statements goes all the way back to the War Commission.
[56:09.080 --> 56:10.080]  Wait a minute.
[56:10.080 --> 56:16.540]  Holland, am I to understand that whatever goes on record as far as FBI investigation
[56:16.540 --> 56:25.520]  is all up to the interpretation, Capri's discretion of the agent and not by witness testimony
[56:25.520 --> 56:31.600]  recording of either vocal testimony or factual statements?
[56:31.600 --> 56:38.840]  If the 302 statement is rendered, which is an agent interview of a witness, FBI will
[56:38.840 --> 56:41.200]  state they cannot record it in any means.
[56:41.200 --> 56:43.400]  It is entirely written by the agent.
[56:43.400 --> 56:47.120]  In fact, that's one of the recommendations coming out of the final report was to require
[56:47.120 --> 56:52.760]  the FBI to start recording witness statements because there were so many discrepancies.
[56:52.760 --> 56:55.640]  The interesting fact to that is, I'm glad you mentioned that, Holland, it is in the
[56:55.640 --> 57:00.760]  Terry Nichols federal trial, one thing that the forewoman, or the forewoman, let's see,
[57:00.760 --> 57:06.400]  Nikki Deutschman, the head of the jury said in a post trial after the verdict was rendered,
[57:06.400 --> 57:13.800]  she says that the FBI had come across over 4,000 minutes of tape, of audio tape that
[57:13.800 --> 57:17.560]  was given on eyewitness testimony that was given to the FBI and the defense team had
[57:17.560 --> 57:18.640]  been a discovery.
[57:18.640 --> 57:22.840]  Not one minute of those audio tapes of the witnesses was entered into the minutes of
[57:22.840 --> 57:24.360]  the trial.
[57:24.360 --> 57:29.080]  This is a huge terrorism case at the time and that's what made the jury was only two
[57:29.080 --> 57:33.240]  votes away from acquitting Nichols of all charges because the prosecution refused to
[57:33.240 --> 57:37.240]  enter those audio tapes, which clearly shows, and this is right in line with what Holland
[57:37.240 --> 57:42.400]  is saying, your 302 witness statements can be completely forged, it can be altered, whatever
[57:42.400 --> 57:43.400]  they want.
[57:43.400 --> 57:47.440]  It's at the discretion of the FBI agent and that's simply, it's unacceptable.
[57:47.440 --> 57:49.840]  And then the prosecutor won't enter it in anyway.
[57:49.840 --> 57:55.400]  Well, if they do, chances are it will be bogus.
[57:55.400 --> 57:57.640]  Can I interrupt here?
[57:57.640 --> 57:58.640]  Go ahead.
[57:58.640 --> 58:03.680]  I'm kind of glad that I called in today, even though we weren't able to get to the case
[58:03.680 --> 58:10.760]  or anything, but something like what is being described here is very visible from this part
[58:10.760 --> 58:11.760]  of Connecticut.
[58:11.760 --> 58:13.200]  I don't know if you guys have been here.
[58:13.200 --> 58:17.600]  Yes, I have a couple of times and I tried to make it to go up to the memorial, but you're
[58:17.600 --> 58:18.600]  right.
[58:18.600 --> 58:19.600]  There's a memorial out on the shore.
[58:19.600 --> 58:26.840]  It's very, I mean, you know, screw the shore, I mean, if you're talking even like Norwich,
[58:26.840 --> 58:30.400]  I don't know if you're in front of Google Maps right now, but you can get an idea of
[58:30.400 --> 58:36.000]  how like concerning the elevation, how easily it is you could see something like that.
[58:36.000 --> 58:37.000]  Yes, well, sorry.
[58:37.000 --> 58:38.000]  Well, yeah.
[58:38.000 --> 58:46.640]  And Dan, what you're, the story you're relaying, your wife's eyewitness account certainly concurs
[58:46.640 --> 58:51.360]  with all the evidence that Chris has been mentioning above.
[58:51.360 --> 58:52.640]  All right, listen, we're going to break.
[58:52.640 --> 58:54.760]  We're at the top of the hour at this point.
[58:54.760 --> 58:58.200]  When we go into the next segment, I want to transition and segue into the Oklahoma City
[58:58.200 --> 59:03.400]  bombing case and bring Holland in for his take on the whole thing as well.
[59:03.400 --> 59:04.400]  So we'll be right back.
[59:04.400 --> 59:22.160]  This is a rule of law on rule of law radio.
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[01:00:43.160 --> 01:00:50.760]  Thank you.
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[01:02:13.160 --> 01:02:20.160]  All right, this is the rule of law, the rule of law, ruleoflawradio.com.
[01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:33.600]  All right, we are interviewing Holland Vanden Heuwenhoff and Chris Emery.
[01:02:33.600 --> 01:02:40.600]  We're discussing the TWA, just tragedy, how our own military shot down passenger aircraft
[01:02:40.600 --> 01:02:47.600]  and just complete buffoonery, which I still suspect perhaps it wasn't, but at any rate,
[01:02:49.720 --> 01:02:54.720]  stupid war games causing the deaths of all these people.
[01:02:54.720 --> 01:02:57.720]  Now we're transitioning into the Oklahoma City bombing.
[01:02:57.720 --> 01:03:00.720]  It was an inside job, all the same people were involved.
[01:03:00.720 --> 01:03:02.720]  Chris and Holland have been researching this for years.
[01:03:02.720 --> 01:03:04.720]  I'm just starting to scratch the surface of it.
[01:03:04.720 --> 01:03:10.720]  Holland, can you bring us up to speed on the whole Oklahoma City bombing thing and how
[01:03:10.720 --> 01:03:12.720]  you got into this and your research?
[01:03:12.720 --> 01:03:19.720]  You've actually even been out to the property, the federal land, where the officer was murdered.
[01:03:22.720 --> 01:03:23.720]  Yeah, Terrence Yakey.
[01:03:23.720 --> 01:03:26.720]  Terrence Yakey, I'm sorry, I forgot his name for a moment.
[01:03:26.720 --> 01:03:31.720]  If you could just please give us your background on this and how you came to understand all
[01:03:31.720 --> 01:03:32.720]  these things.
[01:03:32.720 --> 01:03:39.720]  Well, like I said, I started becoming aware fairly early on.
[01:03:39.720 --> 01:03:46.720]  About year 2004, 2005, I started writing and distributing a hand bill of my own writing,
[01:03:47.720 --> 01:03:52.720]  just trying to wake people up to the Oklahoma City bombing, 9-11, other issues and so forth.
[01:03:52.720 --> 01:03:58.720]  Like Chris mentioned, I ran into Chris at a peace fair in Oklahoma City in late, I believe,
[01:03:58.720 --> 01:04:05.720]  September of 2005 and we exchanged literature and he asked me to speak at the Conspirathon
[01:04:05.720 --> 01:04:13.720]  and not a long time after that, I came to a dinner meeting with Charles Key who, if you
[01:04:13.720 --> 01:04:21.720]  don't know, was the Oklahoma State Representative in 1995 who spearheaded the independent investigation
[01:04:21.720 --> 01:04:22.720]  into the bombing.
[01:04:22.720 --> 01:04:27.720]  Charles Key was a personal hero of mine, so it was literally a dream come true for me
[01:04:27.720 --> 01:04:31.720]  that he's sitting across the dinner table from someone who had laid everything on the
[01:04:31.720 --> 01:04:32.720]  line.
[01:04:32.720 --> 01:04:36.720]  He had lost his political career, he had lost his business, just for the truth, just trying
[01:04:36.720 --> 01:04:37.720]  to do the right thing.
[01:04:37.720 --> 01:04:44.720]  His name had been smeared by the press, the media here in Oklahoma is highly controlled
[01:04:44.720 --> 01:04:48.720]  and basically they were masquerading as a lynch mob, running editorials against Charles
[01:04:48.720 --> 01:04:52.720]  Key, asking any questions about the Oklahoma City bombing.
[01:04:52.720 --> 01:04:59.720]  Anyways, soon after that, we organized the Oklahoma Truth Convergence on OU campus and
[01:04:59.720 --> 01:05:04.720]  then we got involved in Low Power FM Radio to try to reach out to as many people as possible.
[01:05:04.720 --> 01:05:10.720]  Speaking about these cases, me and Chris came into this after the fact.
[01:05:10.720 --> 01:05:11.720]  We were talking about Final Report.
[01:05:11.720 --> 01:05:15.720]  Final Report was issued by the Oklahoma City Bombing Investigation Committee, which was
[01:05:15.720 --> 01:05:24.720]  composed of Charles Key, George Wallace, B.Z. Laudin, and Dale Phillips.
[01:05:24.720 --> 01:05:32.720]  But they had a lot of help from investigators, policemen, rescue personnel, survivors, eyewitnesses.
[01:05:32.720 --> 01:05:38.720]  There's a whole support network here in Oklahoma who are striving for the truth.
[01:05:38.720 --> 01:05:43.720]  As I got involved with Chris, helping him with research, and in studying past cases
[01:05:43.720 --> 01:05:50.720]  like TWA 800, even going back to JFK, and I'm sure it goes way past that, you see the
[01:05:50.720 --> 01:05:53.720]  same pattern of cover-up.
[01:05:53.720 --> 01:05:57.720]  You see the FBI manhandling the 302 statements.
[01:05:57.720 --> 01:06:03.720]  You see these tangible pieces of evidence being unearthed by independent investigators
[01:06:03.720 --> 01:06:07.720]  being reported in the press initially, then the government, their standard SOP, is to
[01:06:07.720 --> 01:06:11.720]  offer some kind of lame excuse and then the media just bites and doesn't look into it.
[01:06:11.720 --> 01:06:18.720]  For example, in TWA 800, the explosive residue that was found on the cushion seats was reported
[01:06:18.720 --> 01:06:24.720]  in the press, and the government came back and said, well, that was from a previous bomb
[01:06:24.720 --> 01:06:29.720]  handling drill that the plane had been involved in where a dog handler who was training his
[01:06:29.720 --> 01:06:34.720]  dog to sniff for explosives had accidentally left some residue on the plane.
[01:06:34.720 --> 01:06:36.720]  That's where that residue came from.
[01:06:36.720 --> 01:06:42.720]  But that's their excuse, but then the same dog handler comes forward and says, hey, that
[01:06:42.720 --> 01:06:44.720]  wasn't the plane I was on.
[01:06:44.720 --> 01:06:46.720]  But that doesn't get reported in the media.
[01:06:46.720 --> 01:06:51.720]  They just buy that lame excuse, case closed, end of story.
[01:06:51.720 --> 01:06:58.720]  They may as well say a pink elephant marauded through the plane and just brushed it off
[01:06:58.720 --> 01:06:59.720]  on the seats or something.
[01:06:59.720 --> 01:07:05.720]  I mean, how much lies can they cook up and then people will believe it?
[01:07:05.720 --> 01:07:07.720]  This is outrageous.
[01:07:07.720 --> 01:07:11.720]  And we're relying upon a compliant mainstream media, the lame stream media.
[01:07:11.720 --> 01:07:16.720]  Their job is not to inform, it's to maintain the status quo and to make money.
[01:07:16.720 --> 01:07:24.720]  And upsetting the people and fomenting a grassroots revolution of any kind, peaceful or
[01:07:24.720 --> 01:07:28.720]  whatever, that would change the form of government to one that is more conducive to our needs
[01:07:28.720 --> 01:07:31.720]  is not in the best interest of our corporate media.
[01:07:31.720 --> 01:07:34.720]  So they're going to play along and they're going to be well rewarded.
[01:07:34.720 --> 01:07:40.720]  So that's why it relies upon us and the alternative media, internet, low power FM, other FM
[01:07:40.720 --> 01:07:45.720]  stations, AM stations, shortwave, to inform the people.
[01:07:45.720 --> 01:07:50.720]  I mean, we don't have the truth, I mean, but we have a truth that's different from the
[01:07:50.720 --> 01:07:53.720]  government and our truth makes a whole lot more sense than theirs.
[01:07:53.720 --> 01:07:55.720]  So that's our job.
[01:07:55.720 --> 01:07:57.720]  Holland and I speak from firsthand experience.
[01:07:57.720 --> 01:08:02.720]  And with the story that Jack was good enough to help us break this last July 18th, Andrew
[01:08:02.720 --> 01:08:06.720]  Griffin, myself and Holland worked on that, as well as there's some other key witnesses
[01:08:06.720 --> 01:08:08.720]  that prefer to remain nameless at this time.
[01:08:08.720 --> 01:08:13.720]  But we sat in the office of one of the top writers for the independent counterpart to
[01:08:13.720 --> 01:08:20.720]  The Oklahoman, actually once in, I think it was in early August, about three weeks after
[01:08:20.720 --> 01:08:21.720]  the story broke.
[01:08:21.720 --> 01:08:24.720]  And he was all gung-ho, his editor made sure that we got there in time.
[01:08:24.720 --> 01:08:29.720]  And they sat in with probably a good 45 minutes and we never heard from them again.
[01:08:29.720 --> 01:08:32.720]  They did some follow-ups, they came up with some lame excuse of personal reasons and so
[01:08:32.720 --> 01:08:33.720]  forth.
[01:08:33.720 --> 01:08:36.720]  But we see, you know, these guys are looking in the fire, so to speak.
[01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:41.720]  And when they have the opportunity to quench that or completely put out the fire and actually
[01:08:41.720 --> 01:08:43.720]  look at the story, they run away from it.
[01:08:43.720 --> 01:08:48.720]  And so Holland and Andrew and I, just like several dozen of our colleagues and several
[01:08:48.720 --> 01:08:50.720]  hundred around the country are left holding the bag on us.
[01:08:50.720 --> 01:08:51.720]  We have the proof.
[01:08:51.720 --> 01:08:52.720]  It's right there.
[01:08:52.720 --> 01:08:55.720]  It just, you need somebody in the media to help us get the word out.
[01:08:55.720 --> 01:08:56.720]  So you know what?
[01:08:56.720 --> 01:09:00.720]  We're becoming the media and that's through the good graces of your network, Deb.
[01:09:00.720 --> 01:09:02.720]  We're able to get the word out.
[01:09:02.720 --> 01:09:03.720]  And that's what we have to do.
[01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:05.720]  We've got to take charge of this if we can.
[01:09:05.720 --> 01:09:09.720]  Well, I mean, we're all in this together, Chris.
[01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:16.720]  And you know, I'm certainly going to do everything I can to help you produce your film because
[01:09:16.720 --> 01:09:19.720]  this has to get out.
[01:09:19.720 --> 01:09:23.720]  I mean, people have to learn about this.
[01:09:23.720 --> 01:09:24.720]  They just have to.
[01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:31.720]  I mean, you know, Tom and I, Tom, Kylie and I were talking earlier on the previous show
[01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:34.720]  about, you know, just people being asleep.
[01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:42.720]  And I was recounting last week about a computer that Randy had given me where somebody had
[01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:45.720]  left some e-mails and their tax records and stuff.
[01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:49.720]  And you know, I didn't even want to look at it because I don't want to pry into people's business.
[01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:53.720]  And you know, when I get a computer come to me, I just generally just format the heart of it.
[01:09:53.720 --> 01:09:54.720]  I don't want to look at it.
[01:09:54.720 --> 01:09:57.720]  But you know, a friend said, no, you need to look at it because what if it's a plan,
[01:09:57.720 --> 01:10:00.720]  a government plan or something, find out what it's all about.
[01:10:00.720 --> 01:10:04.720]  Well, it was just some guy who was a very old computer, very old tax records and e-mails.
[01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:10.720]  But you know, e-mails dating back to 2003 where, you know, these people are bashing France
[01:10:10.720 --> 01:10:18.720]  and calling them, you know, just hypocrites and evil people because they spoke out against
[01:10:18.720 --> 01:10:25.720]  the U.S. invasion of Iraq and how un-Christian they were and un-thankful they were
[01:10:25.720 --> 01:10:30.720]  because 50,000 plus soldiers died in World War II to defend France.
[01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:34.720]  And now how dare they speak out against us invading Iraq.
[01:10:34.720 --> 01:10:38.720]  And I was just like, oh my God, it was horrifying.
[01:10:38.720 --> 01:10:42.720]  I mean, this is the mindset of so many people.
[01:10:42.720 --> 01:10:44.720]  We've got to break through.
[01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:45.720]  It was just awful.
[01:10:45.720 --> 01:10:47.720]  I mean, we have to get the word out.
[01:10:47.720 --> 01:10:49.720]  There's, you know, and speaking of...
[01:10:49.720 --> 01:10:52.720]  I put my head up against people like that of my own family.
[01:10:52.720 --> 01:10:55.720]  I mean, try to talk to them about these issues.
[01:10:55.720 --> 01:11:00.720]  I mean, we're dealing with, you know, people psychologically,
[01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:02.720]  they don't think of themselves as bad people.
[01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:06.720]  So the views they hold, they think that that's what good people think.
[01:11:06.720 --> 01:11:08.720]  So when you're telling them that they're wrong,
[01:11:08.720 --> 01:11:10.720]  you're also telling them that they're a bad person.
[01:11:10.720 --> 01:11:12.720]  You're not really, but that's what they're reading.
[01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:16.720]  So somehow we have to circumvent that, planting seeds of truth
[01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:20.720]  that they can nurture themselves to the fruition that has,
[01:11:20.720 --> 01:11:22.720]  in my experience, that has a little success.
[01:11:22.720 --> 01:11:24.720]  But it's an uphill battle.
[01:11:24.720 --> 01:11:26.720]  We're dealing with so many paradigms.
[01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:29.720]  People are locked into these paradigms that, you know,
[01:11:29.720 --> 01:11:31.720]  basically as long as we're killing little brown-skinned people,
[01:11:31.720 --> 01:11:33.720]  you know, everything's fine.
[01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:34.720]  You know what I mean?
[01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:38.720]  It's like it's a gladiatorial attitude towards the world.
[01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:43.720]  Instead of us being one human race, it's us versus them.
[01:11:43.720 --> 01:11:48.720]  It's the Christians versus the Muslims, those Islam people, you know.
[01:11:48.720 --> 01:11:52.720]  I mean, I was talking to some of my family the other day who should know better,
[01:11:52.720 --> 01:11:57.720]  and he just made an off-the-cuff remark about how all Muslims want to cut our heads off.
[01:11:57.720 --> 01:11:59.720]  And I said, hey, hold on right there.
[01:11:59.720 --> 01:12:00.720]  That's stereotype.
[01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:03.720]  I've talked to a lot of Muslim people in this state,
[01:12:03.720 --> 01:12:07.720]  and none of them want anything to do with terrorism.
[01:12:07.720 --> 01:12:08.720]  They're not different from you or me.
[01:12:08.720 --> 01:12:09.720]  They want to raise their kids.
[01:12:09.720 --> 01:12:10.720]  They want a good job.
[01:12:10.720 --> 01:12:11.720]  They want freedom.
[01:12:11.720 --> 01:12:13.720]  They want security.
[01:12:13.720 --> 01:12:15.720]  And they don't want to cut your head off.
[01:12:15.720 --> 01:12:16.720]  I'm telling you that right now.
[01:12:16.720 --> 01:12:20.720]  Yeah, they practice Islam because that's the way they were raised.
[01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:23.720]  And I'm telling you, if you grew up in Syria, you'd be Muslim,
[01:12:23.720 --> 01:12:26.720]  and you would be locked into that paradigm.
[01:12:26.720 --> 01:12:29.720]  People just need to think outside what they were born into,
[01:12:29.720 --> 01:12:34.720]  think for themselves, and come to their own conclusion instead of what's being pumped into their head.
[01:12:34.720 --> 01:12:38.720]  You have to differentiate between a thought that originates within yourself
[01:12:38.720 --> 01:12:41.720]  and a thought that's planted in your head by an outside source.
[01:12:41.720 --> 01:12:51.720]  Yeah, and we have to realize, too, that it's very systematic and planned and deliberate and insidious.
[01:12:51.720 --> 01:12:53.720]  It's not just happenstance.
[01:12:53.720 --> 01:13:00.720]  I mean, this all started way before even Bernays, who wrote the book Propaganda.
[01:13:00.720 --> 01:13:06.720]  And now it's gone light years beyond what Bernays even conceived of.
[01:13:06.720 --> 01:13:12.720]  So I think we've got all the factual evidence in the world.
[01:13:12.720 --> 01:13:18.720]  We've got to start studying some of this psychology that they use against us so we can combat it.
[01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:25.720]  And I'm certainly not the expert on that, but all I know to do is just tell people the truth
[01:13:25.720 --> 01:13:29.720]  and just lay it out how it is because you can't deny it.
[01:13:29.720 --> 01:13:31.720]  You just can't deny it.
[01:13:31.720 --> 01:13:32.720]  Yes, you can.
[01:13:32.720 --> 01:13:36.720]  Well, they can if they want to keep their head in the sand, you know,
[01:13:36.720 --> 01:13:44.720]  and let the government come take away everything they have, everything they are.
[01:13:44.720 --> 01:13:48.720]  Getting back to the case, Deb, one thing that, and Helen and I, after a while,
[01:13:48.720 --> 01:13:55.720]  you look at a case like this or 9-11, and you build up a veneer, not so much of disdain or disgust,
[01:13:55.720 --> 01:13:59.720]  but of like, wow, you know, does it get any bigger?
[01:13:59.720 --> 01:14:01.720]  How big are the whopping lies?
[01:14:01.720 --> 01:14:07.720]  It just amazes me that the folks that are trying to whip this up and perpetuate these stories
[01:14:07.720 --> 01:14:13.720]  and the fakery and the machinations, you know, it's like we're not stupid.
[01:14:13.720 --> 01:14:15.720]  I mean, please don't insult our intelligence.
[01:14:15.720 --> 01:14:19.720]  And it's just a weird confluence of, okay, you really got to keep your eye on the ball.
[01:14:19.720 --> 01:14:22.720]  You got to stay focused on the facts of the case, and you go with the facts.
[01:14:22.720 --> 01:14:26.720]  You go with what you can prove, and you set aside what you can't prove.
[01:14:26.720 --> 01:14:31.720]  And, Helen, you can interject any time here, but we've gained more respect for each other
[01:14:31.720 --> 01:14:36.720]  in the fact that it's not so much the fear of exposing these people.
[01:14:36.720 --> 01:14:41.720]  It's the, I don't know, it's really the disappointment
[01:14:41.720 --> 01:14:46.720]  and of knowing that we're continuing to be lied to, and we know better.
[01:14:46.720 --> 01:14:49.720]  It's like, just stop, you know, just stop the tape.
[01:14:49.720 --> 01:14:52.720]  Just tell us the truth, and quit making up this stuff.
[01:14:52.720 --> 01:14:57.720]  I mean, you can't even pass a fifth grader, you know, they can see through this.
[01:14:57.720 --> 01:15:00.720]  Why do you expect us as adults to be faked by this?
[01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:03.720]  But as a filmmaker, yeah, go ahead.
[01:15:03.720 --> 01:15:07.720]  I don't see how many of these people can look themselves in the mirror, honestly,
[01:15:07.720 --> 01:15:11.720]  because studying the case, seeing the law enforcement agents that have lied,
[01:15:11.720 --> 01:15:16.720]  knowing, they know from what they've seen, what they've been told by witnesses,
[01:15:16.720 --> 01:15:18.720]  that what they're doing is a lie.
[01:15:18.720 --> 01:15:23.720]  And they're helping cover up the deaths here in Oklahoma City of 169 people who were murdered.
[01:15:23.720 --> 01:15:28.720]  I mean, the ATF office was empty that day, on a Tuesday morning, 9 o'clock in the morning.
[01:15:28.720 --> 01:15:31.720]  I mean, there was no, there wasn't even anyone answering phones.
[01:15:31.720 --> 01:15:35.720]  They emptied their office, and they let all those people in the Social Security office,
[01:15:35.720 --> 01:15:38.720]  in the Ag Department, in the HUD Department, they let those people die.
[01:15:38.720 --> 01:15:40.720]  I don't know how they live with themselves.
[01:15:40.720 --> 01:15:44.720]  And it's frankly, it's kind of scary that human beings like that live among us,
[01:15:44.720 --> 01:15:46.720]  apparently in great numbers.
[01:15:46.720 --> 01:15:50.720]  For myself, I mean, there have been times, and Chris can corroborate this,
[01:15:50.720 --> 01:15:55.720]  where we've been intimidated, both subtly and pretty directly,
[01:15:55.720 --> 01:15:58.720]  by people not wanting us to dig too much deeper.
[01:15:58.720 --> 01:16:00.720]  And there's elements of fear sometimes.
[01:16:00.720 --> 01:16:02.720]  But you know what, I just, I don't care.
[01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:07.720]  I want, I don't want to live in a country where our government kill, terrorizes us,
[01:16:07.720 --> 01:16:09.720]  and gets away with it.
[01:16:09.720 --> 01:16:12.720]  And I'm not going to sit by and just let it help without doing anything.
[01:16:12.720 --> 01:16:16.720]  I just don't, I mean, I just don't want to live that way.
[01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:21.720]  I think that's a basic human right that people have, not to be terrorized by their government.
[01:16:21.720 --> 01:16:22.720]  I mean, that's very simple.
[01:16:22.720 --> 01:16:23.720]  Sure.
[01:16:23.720 --> 01:16:26.720]  And that's what we're fighting for.
[01:16:26.720 --> 01:16:28.720]  Looks like we're going to come up on break here pretty soon.
[01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:29.720]  Yeah, we're going to come up on break.
[01:16:29.720 --> 01:16:35.720]  When we get back from break, I want to, I want you guys to lay it all out,
[01:16:35.720 --> 01:16:40.720]  the facts of the Oklahoma City bombing, what really happened.
[01:16:40.720 --> 01:16:42.720]  Okay, we'll be right back.
[01:16:42.720 --> 01:16:59.720]  This is the Rule of Law on ruleoflawradio.com.
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[01:18:03.720 --> 01:18:21.720]  Music
[01:18:21.720 --> 01:18:23.720]  Can't fool me.
[01:18:23.720 --> 01:18:27.720]  Ain't gonna fool me with the same old lies.
[01:18:27.720 --> 01:18:29.720]  Same old tricks again.
[01:18:29.720 --> 01:18:33.720]  Song by Jerry Stevens, my husband.
[01:18:33.720 --> 01:18:36.720]  Okay, very appropriate for this conversation.
[01:18:36.720 --> 01:18:38.720]  All right, Holland, I wanted to go to you.
[01:18:38.720 --> 01:18:42.720]  Can you basically lay out some facts for us,
[01:18:42.720 --> 01:18:46.720]  what the government so-called official story is regarding the Oklahoma City bombing
[01:18:46.720 --> 01:18:50.720]  and what your research has shown to be the real truth?
[01:18:50.720 --> 01:18:56.720]  Okay, well, the official story is that shortly after 9 a.m.,
[01:18:56.720 --> 01:19:01.720]  April 19th, 1995, a disgruntled ex-army soldier named Tim McVeigh pulled up a
[01:19:01.720 --> 01:19:04.720]  rider truck outside the Alfred P. Murrah Building,
[01:19:04.720 --> 01:19:08.720]  which is the federal building in downtown Oklahoma City,
[01:19:08.720 --> 01:19:11.720]  walked away from it, and shortly thereafter it exploded,
[01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:17.720]  and the explosion from the truck bomb brought down a third of the federal building,
[01:19:17.720 --> 01:19:19.720]  killing 169 people.
[01:19:19.720 --> 01:19:25.720]  McVeigh was later apprehended, speeding north on I-35 without a license plate,
[01:19:25.720 --> 01:19:28.720]  he was pulled over by a state trooper.
[01:19:28.720 --> 01:19:32.720]  Tim McVeigh had a Glock 21.45 caliber pistol and a shoulder holster
[01:19:32.720 --> 01:19:36.720]  that allowed himself to be arrested after killing 169 people.
[01:19:36.720 --> 01:19:40.720]  While he was waiting in jail, the FBI put two and two together,
[01:19:40.720 --> 01:19:46.720]  and apparently McVeigh used identification to rent the truck.
[01:19:46.720 --> 01:19:51.720]  They quickly found out it was McVeigh, and they detained him and charged him with the bombing.
[01:19:51.720 --> 01:19:55.720]  His accomplice Terry Nichols, who was later charged also,
[01:19:55.720 --> 01:19:57.720]  was also spending the rest of his life in jail.
[01:19:57.720 --> 01:20:01.720]  Michael Fortier, who was a companion of McVeigh's in Arizona,
[01:20:01.720 --> 01:20:03.720]  turned state's evidence along with his wife,
[01:20:03.720 --> 01:20:05.720]  and they spent a short time in jail and are now out,
[01:20:05.720 --> 01:20:09.720]  if they spent any time in jail at all, which is kind of up in the air,
[01:20:09.720 --> 01:20:11.720]  and therefore case closed.
[01:20:11.720 --> 01:20:15.720]  Nothing more to it, just a disgruntled army soldier who had affiliations
[01:20:15.720 --> 01:20:19.720]  with some right-wing patriot movement people,
[01:20:19.720 --> 01:20:23.720]  and because he hated the government, he decided to kill all these innocent people.
[01:20:23.720 --> 01:20:28.720]  Well, from day one, people in Oklahoma started seeing things
[01:20:28.720 --> 01:20:34.720]  that were not congruent with the government's story.
[01:20:34.720 --> 01:20:36.720]  The fact is that people in the building,
[01:20:36.720 --> 01:20:39.720]  we have over a dozen, I believe 15 or 16 witnesses,
[01:20:39.720 --> 01:20:42.720]  who report that two explosions happened that day.
[01:20:42.720 --> 01:20:50.720]  First the explosion in the building from interior charges placed inside the building,
[01:20:50.720 --> 01:20:53.720]  and then shortly thereafter the truck bomb outside,
[01:20:53.720 --> 01:20:56.720]  which we believe basically just served to destroy the truck
[01:20:56.720 --> 01:20:59.720]  and did almost no damage to the building itself.
[01:20:59.720 --> 01:21:02.720]  It may have blown in the buildings, brought down some of the front of the spot,
[01:21:02.720 --> 01:21:07.720]  but in no way is an ammonium nitrate explosive, which is a low explosive,
[01:21:07.720 --> 01:21:09.720]  not a high explosive, by the way,
[01:21:09.720 --> 01:21:14.720]  it's used for blowing stumps and clearing out ponds because it is a low explosive.
[01:21:14.720 --> 01:21:17.720]  It doesn't cut through steel and concrete.
[01:21:17.720 --> 01:21:20.720]  Parts away from the building was able to bring down a third of the building.
[01:21:20.720 --> 01:21:25.720]  This is corroborated by the work of Air Force General Benson K. Parkton,
[01:21:25.720 --> 01:21:28.720]  and he ran the Air Force Armaments Laboratory for several years.
[01:21:28.720 --> 01:21:30.720]  He invented the smart bomb.
[01:21:30.720 --> 01:21:37.720]  He tested, had a hand in designing and tested every major piece of ordnance
[01:21:37.720 --> 01:21:39.720]  in our military's inventory,
[01:21:39.720 --> 01:21:44.720]  and he issued his report shortly thereafter the bombing saying
[01:21:44.720 --> 01:21:47.720]  there is no way ammonium nitrate would have done that damage to the building.
[01:21:47.720 --> 01:21:53.720]  Several points are, one, that there were support columns closer to the truck bomb
[01:21:53.720 --> 01:21:58.720]  that stayed intact while support columns inside the building
[01:21:58.720 --> 01:22:01.720]  farther away from the truck were completely disintegrated,
[01:22:01.720 --> 01:22:03.720]  and he analyzed the damage to these support columns
[01:22:03.720 --> 01:22:08.720]  and concluded that they were blown up by contact charges
[01:22:08.720 --> 01:22:11.720]  because the concrete had been dissolved,
[01:22:11.720 --> 01:22:16.720]  had been rendered into its base components of sand and lime.
[01:22:16.720 --> 01:22:17.720]  It was gone.
[01:22:17.720 --> 01:22:22.720]  The rebar was sticking out indicating it had been sheared off.
[01:22:22.720 --> 01:22:24.720]  It wasn't a blast damage.
[01:22:24.720 --> 01:22:28.720]  Blast damage tends to break things, not cut things.
[01:22:28.720 --> 01:22:35.720]  So, Holland, the evidence is showing that the damage was much more extensive
[01:22:35.720 --> 01:22:42.720]  and far-reaching and obliterating inside the building rather than outside.
[01:22:42.720 --> 01:22:43.720]  Is that correct?
[01:22:43.720 --> 01:22:44.720]  Yes, definitely.
[01:22:44.720 --> 01:22:46.720]  There was a man, Chris, I think you can corroborate this.
[01:22:46.720 --> 01:22:50.720]  There was a man smoking a cigarette about 15 foot away from the truck who survived.
[01:22:50.720 --> 01:22:56.720]  I actually sat next to him at the victim's impact statement phase of the Nichols State Trial.
[01:22:56.720 --> 01:22:58.720]  He continues to this day.
[01:22:58.720 --> 01:23:09.720]  I think he still works for the GSA.
[01:23:09.720 --> 01:23:11.720]  Chris.
[01:23:11.720 --> 01:23:14.720]  Chris, I think we're losing you.
[01:23:14.720 --> 01:23:15.720]  Can you hear me?
[01:23:15.720 --> 01:23:17.720]  Yes, I can hear you, Holland.
[01:23:17.720 --> 01:23:18.720]  Okay, well, I'll continue then.
[01:23:18.720 --> 01:23:19.720]  Okay.
[01:23:19.720 --> 01:23:24.720]  Chris, call into the guest bridge, Chris.
[01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:27.720]  I think we're having a problem with Skype.
[01:23:27.720 --> 01:23:28.720]  Okay.
[01:23:28.720 --> 01:23:29.720]  It's the bad guys.
[01:23:29.720 --> 01:23:31.720]  The bad guys don't want us to talk about this.
[01:23:31.720 --> 01:23:32.720]  Obviously.
[01:23:32.720 --> 01:23:35.720]  And then not only do we have the bomb damage analysis,
[01:23:35.720 --> 01:23:39.720]  which has been corroborated by other studies, independent studies,
[01:23:39.720 --> 01:23:42.720]  and also just throwing the fact that the same people who investigated
[01:23:42.720 --> 01:23:45.720]  the Oklahoma City bombings for the government concluded that it was a truck bomb
[01:23:45.720 --> 01:23:48.720]  later also worked on 9-11, but I'll move beyond that.
[01:23:48.720 --> 01:23:52.720]  Anyways, we also have eyewitness testimony, for example,
[01:23:52.720 --> 01:23:55.720]  that McVeigh did not drive up to that building by himself.
[01:23:55.720 --> 01:23:58.720]  Everyone who saw McVeigh that morning saw him with another person.
[01:23:58.720 --> 01:24:02.720]  This is contrary to the government's position, and in fact,
[01:24:02.720 --> 01:24:07.720]  they couldn't even prove in the court of law that McVeigh was in Oklahoma City that day
[01:24:07.720 --> 01:24:10.720]  because no one was willing to say they saw him alone.
[01:24:10.720 --> 01:24:12.720]  They brought forth one witness, Dana Bradley,
[01:24:12.720 --> 01:24:14.720]  who lost I believe two of her children in the bombing.
[01:24:14.720 --> 01:24:16.720]  She was at the Social Security office.
[01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:21.720]  Under cross-examination, she admitted that she saw McVeigh with another person.
[01:24:21.720 --> 01:24:23.720]  This is mysterious John Doe, number two.
[01:24:23.720 --> 01:24:26.720]  And there's a lot of eyewitness testimony to that.
[01:24:26.720 --> 01:24:30.720]  McVeigh running to a car full of two dark-complected men
[01:24:30.720 --> 01:24:33.720]  and speeding away, which is contrary to the government's position.
[01:24:33.720 --> 01:24:35.720]  That's been corroborated.
[01:24:35.720 --> 01:24:39.720]  We also have eyewitness testimony of the rescue workers on the scene.
[01:24:39.720 --> 01:24:42.720]  The ATF showed up right after the bombing in riot gear
[01:24:42.720 --> 01:24:44.720]  like they had been waiting for something.
[01:24:44.720 --> 01:24:47.720]  They weren't in their off-duty clothes or in their plain clothes.
[01:24:47.720 --> 01:24:49.720]  They were in riot gear.
[01:24:49.720 --> 01:24:52.720]  And one of the rescue workers asked the ATF agent,
[01:24:52.720 --> 01:24:53.720]  were you in the building this day?
[01:24:53.720 --> 01:24:55.720]  Because their office is in the Murrah Building.
[01:24:55.720 --> 01:25:01.720]  And he said, no, we were paged by Pager not to come into work this morning.
[01:25:01.720 --> 01:25:03.720]  That's not the only statement to that effect.
[01:25:03.720 --> 01:25:08.720]  Several ATF agents were asked if they were in the building that day by rescue workers
[01:25:08.720 --> 01:25:10.720]  because they were familiar with the building, with the layout,
[01:25:10.720 --> 01:25:14.720]  and more than once said, no, we were told not to come into work this morning.
[01:25:14.720 --> 01:25:19.720]  And who told them not to come into work?
[01:25:19.720 --> 01:25:20.720]  I don't know.
[01:25:20.720 --> 01:25:22.720]  The FBI knew also.
[01:25:22.720 --> 01:25:24.720]  Thirty minutes before the Oklahoma City bombing,
[01:25:24.720 --> 01:25:26.720]  thirty minutes before the truck bomb went off,
[01:25:26.720 --> 01:25:32.720]  the FBI office in Oklahoma City, which was located at 50 Penn Place,
[01:25:32.720 --> 01:25:35.720]  a half hour before the explosion,
[01:25:35.720 --> 01:25:40.720]  there was a radio station just below the FBI headquarters.
[01:25:40.720 --> 01:25:42.720]  It's in a skyscraper.
[01:25:42.720 --> 01:25:48.720]  And they had a Playboy playmate on air interviewing her.
[01:25:48.720 --> 01:25:52.720]  All of a sudden, her handler rushes in, pulls her off the air.
[01:25:52.720 --> 01:25:55.720]  And the DJs are looking at it, so they're like, what is going on?
[01:25:55.720 --> 01:25:58.720]  Five minutes later, the FBI comes out and says, get out of the building now.
[01:25:58.720 --> 01:26:00.720]  They evacuated the building.
[01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:05.720]  So obviously, they knew something was going down.
[01:26:05.720 --> 01:26:08.720]  Incredible.
[01:26:08.720 --> 01:26:09.720]  Can you guys hear me?
[01:26:09.720 --> 01:26:10.720]  Yeah, Chris, go ahead.
[01:26:10.720 --> 01:26:12.720]  Okay. That's all right.
[01:26:12.720 --> 01:26:13.720]  Yeah, it was amazing.
[01:26:13.720 --> 01:26:19.720]  And that particular piece of information came off the Oklahoma Broadcasters Association.
[01:26:19.720 --> 01:26:24.720]  One of their heads calling in to either it was Channel 9 or Channel 4
[01:26:24.720 --> 01:26:28.720]  and saying this about 25 minutes after the bombing, he said, look, you know,
[01:26:28.720 --> 01:26:34.720]  our studios were on the FBI occupied the top four floors at 50 Penn Place.
[01:26:34.720 --> 01:26:38.720]  It was the fifth floor down that the Oklahoma Broadcasters Association occupied.
[01:26:38.720 --> 01:26:42.720]  And it was on that floor that Playboy Bunny, her bodyguards,
[01:26:42.720 --> 01:26:44.720]  and the DJs were talking to her.
[01:26:44.720 --> 01:26:45.720]  It was a rock station.
[01:26:45.720 --> 01:26:47.720]  And it was really bizarre behavior.
[01:26:47.720 --> 01:26:50.720]  And then less than 30 minutes later, all hell breaks loose,
[01:26:50.720 --> 01:26:54.720]  about two miles south of the building, at the Marifetto Building.
[01:26:54.720 --> 01:26:59.720]  I'm looking at the report that General Parton put together, his bomb damage analysis,
[01:26:59.720 --> 01:27:01.720]  and it just lays out clearly.
[01:27:01.720 --> 01:27:05.720]  As a filmmaker, as an engineer, you have to look at things black and white
[01:27:05.720 --> 01:27:08.720]  if you really want a good objective view of what's going on.
[01:27:08.720 --> 01:27:10.720]  If you just look at the pure science of this
[01:27:10.720 --> 01:27:14.720]  and you go back to the National Weather Service records on what the weather was like that day,
[01:27:14.720 --> 01:27:17.720]  the wind direction, and the wind direction was a key.
[01:27:17.720 --> 01:27:19.720]  And a lot of folks are saying, why would you care about that?
[01:27:19.720 --> 01:27:24.720]  Well, to recreate that morning what happened, you have to look at weather conditions,
[01:27:24.720 --> 01:27:26.720]  if there was rain, precipitation, wind.
[01:27:26.720 --> 01:27:31.720]  There was evidence that was found a good block and a half to two blocks north of the Murr Building.
[01:27:31.720 --> 01:27:36.720]  When you had a headwind going into the Murr Building from the north at over 42 miles an hour,
[01:27:36.720 --> 01:27:38.720]  that's a pretty stiff wind.
[01:27:38.720 --> 01:27:43.720]  And to have particulate and granulated evidence on a building to the north,
[01:27:43.720 --> 01:27:46.720]  a good 400 to 450 linear feet away,
[01:27:46.720 --> 01:27:53.720]  I mean, that's a huge amount of force and blast wave attenuation to launch that residue,
[01:27:53.720 --> 01:27:56.720]  unexploded ordnance residue on top of another building.
[01:27:56.720 --> 01:27:59.720]  So you're triangulating all of this stuff is what you're doing.
[01:27:59.720 --> 01:28:03.720]  And that's the best way to do it, and you're approaching it on the engineer's standpoint.
[01:28:03.720 --> 01:28:07.720]  Yeah, and we've done, yeah, I mean, the independent investigators have done better work
[01:28:07.720 --> 01:28:09.720]  than the government itself, than the FBI itself.
[01:28:09.720 --> 01:28:13.720]  Apparently, no one in the FBI thought to run a tape measure across the bomb crater
[01:28:13.720 --> 01:28:15.720]  because there is no official estimate of the bomb crater.
[01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:18.720]  The official estimate kept on getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
[01:28:18.720 --> 01:28:23.720]  So, I mean, they were running a shoddy investigation on purpose.
[01:28:23.720 --> 01:28:28.720]  Well, yeah, that's just, yeah, that's par for the course.
[01:28:28.720 --> 01:28:31.720]  Of course they're going to run a shoddy investigation on purpose
[01:28:31.720 --> 01:28:36.720]  because they're trying to cover up what really happened because they're the perps.
[01:28:36.720 --> 01:28:41.720]  And it's ridiculous that, you know, you got this particulate matter
[01:28:41.720 --> 01:28:47.720]  that y'all are talking about going against the wind hundreds of feet away,
[01:28:47.720 --> 01:28:55.720]  and then you got a guy standing, you know, 10, 20 feet away from the alleged explosion point
[01:28:55.720 --> 01:28:58.720]  smoking a cigarette. That's not harm.
[01:28:58.720 --> 01:29:01.720]  He's standing next to a USA Today paper box.
[01:29:01.720 --> 01:29:05.720]  We did, looking at the blueprints, where the sidewalk was, the photographs,
[01:29:05.720 --> 01:29:08.720]  old photographs taken about three months before the bombing,
[01:29:08.720 --> 01:29:12.720]  we figured he was no more than 18 feet away and as close as 15 feet away from the truck bomb,
[01:29:12.720 --> 01:29:14.720]  and he survived.
[01:29:14.720 --> 01:29:15.720]  And I'm sitting next to this guy.
[01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:19.720]  He had five reconstructive surgeries on his upper torso from the waist on up.
[01:29:19.720 --> 01:29:22.720]  I went home that, I drove back from McAllister that evening,
[01:29:22.720 --> 01:29:23.720]  got on the phone with General Parton,
[01:29:23.720 --> 01:29:26.720]  and General Parton says they should have been carrying him out in a shovel and pieces.
[01:29:26.720 --> 01:29:28.720]  There's no way that he could have survived that.
[01:29:28.720 --> 01:29:30.720]  They wouldn't have found hardly any part of him.
[01:29:30.720 --> 01:29:35.720]  If that blast was powerful enough from the truck bomb to destroy interior columns,
[01:29:35.720 --> 01:29:40.720]  to shear off concrete and very thick rebar, he would have been disintegrated.
[01:29:40.720 --> 01:29:41.720]  Absolutely.
[01:29:41.720 --> 01:29:43.720]  Okay, listen, we're going to break.
[01:29:43.720 --> 01:29:46.720]  When we get back on the other side, I want to talk about the who's.
[01:29:46.720 --> 01:29:47.720]  Who was involved?
[01:29:47.720 --> 01:29:48.720]  Same people as 9-11.
[01:29:48.720 --> 01:29:57.720]  We'll be right back.
[01:29:57.720 --> 01:30:00.720]  Gold prices are at historic highs, and with the recent pullback,
[01:30:00.720 --> 01:30:02.720]  this is a great time to buy.
[01:30:02.720 --> 01:30:06.720]  With the value of the dollar, risks of inflation, geopolitical uncertainties,
[01:30:06.720 --> 01:30:10.720]  and instability in rural financial systems, I see gold going up much higher.
[01:30:10.720 --> 01:30:13.720]  Hi, I'm Tim Fry at Roberts & Roberts Brokerage.
[01:30:13.720 --> 01:30:17.720]  Everybody should have some of their assets in investment-grade precious metals.
[01:30:17.720 --> 01:30:20.720]  At Roberts & Roberts Brokerage, you can buy gold, silver,
[01:30:20.720 --> 01:30:23.720]  and platinum with confidence from a brokerage that's specialized
[01:30:23.720 --> 01:30:26.720]  in the precious metals market since 1977.
[01:30:26.720 --> 01:30:29.720]  If you are new to precious metals, we will happily provide you
[01:30:29.720 --> 01:30:32.720]  with the information you need to make an informed decision
[01:30:32.720 --> 01:30:34.720]  whether or not you choose to purchase from us.
[01:30:34.720 --> 01:30:37.720]  Also, Roberts & Roberts Brokerage values your privacy
[01:30:37.720 --> 01:30:40.720]  and will always advise you in the event that we would be required
[01:30:40.720 --> 01:30:42.720]  to report any transaction.
[01:30:42.720 --> 01:30:45.720]  If you have gold, silver, and platinum you'd like to sell,
[01:30:45.720 --> 01:30:47.720]  we can convert it for immediate payment.
[01:30:47.720 --> 01:30:51.720]  Call us at 800-874-9760.
[01:30:51.720 --> 01:31:18.720]  We are Roberts & Roberts Brokerage, 800-874-9760.
[01:31:21.720 --> 01:31:25.720]  Keep the boat machine away
[01:31:25.720 --> 01:31:28.720]  Everybody come over and see the story
[01:31:28.720 --> 01:31:31.720]  They build the boat machine and then rob away
[01:31:31.720 --> 01:31:34.720]  They put a list of which state elections can be
[01:31:34.720 --> 01:31:37.720]  You can see what happened in the Ohio State, you see
[01:31:37.720 --> 01:31:41.720]  Them gang used to hack us and gone hack me
[01:31:41.720 --> 01:31:44.720]  Two ladies get a little rest for me
[01:31:44.720 --> 01:31:47.720]  Now three years later them a tell me
[01:31:47.720 --> 01:31:52.720]  Four years later they tell me
[01:31:52.720 --> 01:31:57.720]  This is the rule of law in Kelton and Deborah Stevens.
[01:31:57.720 --> 01:32:01.720]  We're here tonight with Holland Van Nuwenhoff, Chris Emery.
[01:32:01.720 --> 01:32:06.720]  We're discussing the Oklahoma City bombing cover-up, inside job,
[01:32:06.720 --> 01:32:08.720]  and we've discussed some of the evidence,
[01:32:08.720 --> 01:32:11.720]  and now we're going to talk about the who's, who was involved,
[01:32:11.720 --> 01:32:15.720]  a lot of the same people that were involved with 9-11.
[01:32:15.720 --> 01:32:19.720]  So, Holland, take it away. You had some comments.
[01:32:19.720 --> 01:32:22.720]  Yeah, well, like I said, they tend to use the same people
[01:32:22.720 --> 01:32:25.720]  over and over for good reasons, I guess.
[01:32:25.720 --> 01:32:29.720]  Jamie Grelick, like I said, was involved with the TWA 800 cover-up.
[01:32:29.720 --> 01:32:32.720]  She's the one who had the meeting with the FBI agent in charge of that,
[01:32:32.720 --> 01:32:34.720]  telling him to steer the case towards an accident.
[01:32:34.720 --> 01:32:38.720]  She was also in charge of manhandling the case in Oklahoma City.
[01:32:38.720 --> 01:32:40.720]  Her name was Jamie Grelick,
[01:32:40.720 --> 01:32:46.720]  and she was the one who was basically telling Oklahoma City District Attorney Bob Macy
[01:32:46.720 --> 01:32:48.720]  not to dig too deep into this,
[01:32:48.720 --> 01:32:52.720]  and she later served on the 9-11 Commission.
[01:32:52.720 --> 01:32:55.720]  In fact, she was one of the executive members,
[01:32:55.720 --> 01:32:59.720]  one of two members allowed to view top secret documents,
[01:32:59.720 --> 01:33:04.720]  and in fact, it was her, she wrote a memo in March of 1995,
[01:33:04.720 --> 01:33:06.720]  the infamous wall memo.
[01:33:06.720 --> 01:33:08.720]  This is the one Jamie Grelick wrote,
[01:33:08.720 --> 01:33:12.720]  and it was used as an excuse by the FBI not to investigate the activities
[01:33:12.720 --> 01:33:16.720]  of known Al-Qaeda personnel in this country prior to 9-11.
[01:33:16.720 --> 01:33:19.720]  They said this wall memo prevented them from investigating
[01:33:19.720 --> 01:33:23.720]  what would later become the hijackers in 9-11.
[01:33:23.720 --> 01:33:25.720]  This memo was not enshrined in law.
[01:33:25.720 --> 01:33:31.720]  It's a DOJ memo that stopped the FBI from looking into these Al-Qaeda people.
[01:33:31.720 --> 01:33:34.720]  Jamie Grelick wrote that in March of 1995,
[01:33:34.720 --> 01:33:37.720]  and that was a month before the Oklahoma City bombing,
[01:33:37.720 --> 01:33:39.720]  because we have developed evidence.
[01:33:39.720 --> 01:33:41.720]  I'm not implicating.
[01:33:41.720 --> 01:33:45.720]  When we talk about Arab personnel involved in the Oklahoma City bombing in 9-11,
[01:33:45.720 --> 01:33:48.720]  I'm not trying to say that the government of Iraq did it
[01:33:48.720 --> 01:33:51.720]  or it was because the Islamists did it.
[01:33:51.720 --> 01:33:53.720]  I mean, they were dupes,
[01:33:53.720 --> 01:33:56.720]  and there were some Arab personnel involved in Oklahoma City,
[01:33:56.720 --> 01:34:00.720]  and in fact, McVeigh got in a truck with two of them right after the bombing,
[01:34:00.720 --> 01:34:03.720]  and I'm not going to get too deep into that because some of them are still here,
[01:34:03.720 --> 01:34:08.720]  but anyways, the wall memo was reissued in the summer of 2001,
[01:34:08.720 --> 01:34:10.720]  right before 9-11,
[01:34:10.720 --> 01:34:12.720]  and once again,
[01:34:12.720 --> 01:34:15.720]  preventing the FBI from looking into known Al-Qaeda activity in this country,
[01:34:15.720 --> 01:34:19.720]  and then Jamie Grelick, involved in TWA 800,
[01:34:19.720 --> 01:34:21.720]  Oklahoma City, and 9-11,
[01:34:21.720 --> 01:34:27.720]  was one of the executive directors of the independent 9-11 commission,
[01:34:27.720 --> 01:34:30.720]  and many observers opined that she should have been on the witness stand,
[01:34:30.720 --> 01:34:33.720]  not judging evidence,
[01:34:33.720 --> 01:34:36.720]  so that just proves from day one,
[01:34:36.720 --> 01:34:39.720]  I mean, that they are not interested in the truth.
[01:34:39.720 --> 01:34:41.720]  They are interested in covering things up.
[01:34:41.720 --> 01:34:43.720]  They tend to use same people over and over,
[01:34:43.720 --> 01:34:45.720]  and Jamie Grelick is still around.
[01:34:45.720 --> 01:34:49.720]  Her name was batted around to be head of the Justice Department.
[01:34:49.720 --> 01:34:51.720]  Before Eric Holder got the nomination,
[01:34:51.720 --> 01:34:55.720]  Jamie Grelick's name was being batted around,
[01:34:55.720 --> 01:34:56.720]  so she's still a player.
[01:34:56.720 --> 01:34:58.720]  A lot of people are still involved.
[01:34:58.720 --> 01:35:03.720]  The special agent in charge of Oklahoma City was Bob Ricks.
[01:35:03.720 --> 01:35:05.720]  He was, if you don't remember,
[01:35:05.720 --> 01:35:09.720]  the spokesman for the Waco siege in 1993,
[01:35:09.720 --> 01:35:14.720]  the man who was on TV every day telling us what bad people the Branch Davidians were,
[01:35:14.720 --> 01:35:16.720]  and then after the FBI torched them,
[01:35:16.720 --> 01:35:18.720]  saying that they had committed suicide
[01:35:18.720 --> 01:35:22.720]  and that the FBI had done everything in their power to try to save the children,
[01:35:22.720 --> 01:35:26.720]  when we know from infrared camera technology
[01:35:26.720 --> 01:35:29.720]  that they had surrounded the underground tornado shelter
[01:35:29.720 --> 01:35:34.720]  where those kids were and shot machine gun rounds into the entrances,
[01:35:34.720 --> 01:35:36.720]  not allowing them to escape.
[01:35:36.720 --> 01:35:37.720]  He took part in that cover-up,
[01:35:37.720 --> 01:35:42.720]  and he was later in charge of the Oklahoma City Office of the FBI during the bombing,
[01:35:42.720 --> 01:35:44.720]  helped cover it up.
[01:35:44.720 --> 01:35:47.720]  Bob Ricks also helped cover up the murder of Oklahoma City police officer Terrence Yakey,
[01:35:47.720 --> 01:35:50.720]  who had information on the bombing,
[01:35:50.720 --> 01:35:55.720]  and he later went on to become a police chief of a suburb here in Oklahoma City.
[01:35:55.720 --> 01:35:59.720]  But, I mean, the same people tend to be used again and again and again.
[01:35:59.720 --> 01:36:00.720]  Oh, how about that?
[01:36:00.720 --> 01:36:01.720]  By naming names.
[01:36:01.720 --> 01:36:02.720]  How about that?
[01:36:02.720 --> 01:36:06.720]  He covers up the murder of a police officer,
[01:36:06.720 --> 01:36:09.720]  and later he gets rewarded by becoming police chief.
[01:36:09.720 --> 01:36:10.720]  How about that?
[01:36:10.720 --> 01:36:12.720]  Well, to make matters worse,
[01:36:12.720 --> 01:36:15.720]  our former governor, Frank Heating, felt sorry for him.
[01:36:15.720 --> 01:36:18.720]  Louis Free promptly summarily fired Bob Ricks
[01:36:18.720 --> 01:36:23.720]  because he did a completely dreadful job of any pre-intelligence on this case,
[01:36:23.720 --> 01:36:28.720]  and then, of course, muddled his way through whatever part of the investigation he chose to take part in.
[01:36:28.720 --> 01:36:31.720]  So he's hired as the head of the DPS for the state of Oklahoma.
[01:36:31.720 --> 01:36:34.720]  After that, the city of Edmond brings him on as a police chief.
[01:36:34.720 --> 01:36:39.720]  I mean, this guy has, it's like he has impunity that is endless,
[01:36:39.720 --> 01:36:42.720]  and it really makes you think, go ahead.
[01:36:42.720 --> 01:36:47.720]  Yeah, and he immediately turns the Edmond police force into a fascist little police state,
[01:36:47.720 --> 01:36:52.720]  gave them black uniforms and gave them orders to pull over anyone who has an older car
[01:36:52.720 --> 01:36:58.720]  and there's a lot of police hygiene type out of Edmond, Oklahoma that Bob Ricks is directly in charge of.
[01:36:58.720 --> 01:37:02.720]  So, I mean, he took that mindset with him.
[01:37:02.720 --> 01:37:06.720]  Now, guys, I wanted to ask you, too, what about the Patsies?
[01:37:06.720 --> 01:37:09.720]  Apparently, some of these Patsies that were involved with 9-11
[01:37:09.720 --> 01:37:15.720]  stayed in the same hotels with each other right before the Oklahoma City bombing,
[01:37:15.720 --> 01:37:19.720]  so what's up with that? These are CIA operatives, apparently.
[01:37:19.720 --> 01:37:22.720]  Yeah, there's a motel in Oklahoma City. I'm not going to name it
[01:37:22.720 --> 01:37:26.720]  because the people who own it, they aren't responsible for what happened there.
[01:37:26.720 --> 01:37:29.720]  But it's a cash-only place. It's off the beaten path.
[01:37:29.720 --> 01:37:33.720]  It's still close to the city, but it's in a portion of the city where there's nothing around.
[01:37:33.720 --> 01:37:36.720]  It's basically a hideout, you know.
[01:37:36.720 --> 01:37:40.720]  There's a lot of long-term people who take cash. I don't know if they take IDs or not.
[01:37:40.720 --> 01:37:43.720]  But I believe it was the day before the Oklahoma City bombing,
[01:37:43.720 --> 01:37:49.720]  Tim McVeigh was spotted staying in this motel with some Arab personnel.
[01:37:49.720 --> 01:37:54.720]  And when he drove out of the parking lot of the motel that morning of April 19th,
[01:37:54.720 --> 01:38:00.720]  one of the employees described it as a convoy, not a lone rider truck, a convoy.
[01:38:00.720 --> 01:38:05.720]  Now, that's only significant in the fact that later on, in August of 2001,
[01:38:05.720 --> 01:38:12.720]  right before 9-11, immediately before 9-11, lead 9-11 hijacker Mohammed Atta,
[01:38:12.720 --> 01:38:17.720]  another hijacker, and another hijacker, met with Zakris Masawi,
[01:38:17.720 --> 01:38:22.720]  the supposed 20th hijacker who was taking flight lessons in Oklahoma, in northern Oklahoma.
[01:38:22.720 --> 01:38:26.720]  They met in the same motel. Why?
[01:38:26.720 --> 01:38:30.720]  Well, obviously, because a good place to hideout is off the beaten path,
[01:38:30.720 --> 01:38:34.720]  and obviously someone in the city told them,
[01:38:34.720 --> 01:38:38.720]  this is a good place to carry out your activities, to carry out your meetings.
[01:38:38.720 --> 01:38:42.720]  And there was also, I can also go into CIA agent David Edger, who was involved,
[01:38:42.720 --> 01:38:47.720]  who was, I have implicated in the hijack activities of 9-11.
[01:38:47.720 --> 01:38:53.720]  David Edger is a CIA officer in residence at the University of Oklahoma.
[01:38:53.720 --> 01:38:55.720]  He teaches political science.
[01:38:55.720 --> 01:39:02.720]  And prior to that, in the 80s, actually even prior to that, he made his bones in Chile.
[01:39:02.720 --> 01:39:10.720]  In 1973, September 11, 1973, David Edger was involved in the coup that deposed Allende,
[01:39:10.720 --> 01:39:14.720]  the Democratic elected president of Chile, at the behest of ITT.
[01:39:14.720 --> 01:39:17.720]  He was later killed. Edger made his bones there.
[01:39:17.720 --> 01:39:23.720]  He later became head of covert operations worldwide for the CIA, the head jackal.
[01:39:23.720 --> 01:39:29.720]  This guy is not, you know, your basic white-gloves analyst. He is a jackal.
[01:39:29.720 --> 01:39:34.720]  Then he took an apparent demotion from being head of covert ops worldwide
[01:39:34.720 --> 01:39:38.720]  to watching the Hamburg Cell,
[01:39:38.720 --> 01:39:44.720]  which was composed of Mohammed Atta and several other 9-11 hijackers.
[01:39:44.720 --> 01:39:48.720]  He observed this Hamburg Cell and by his own admission
[01:39:48.720 --> 01:39:53.720]  says that he observed nothing of interest while he was surveilling the premises.
[01:39:53.720 --> 01:39:56.720]  This, when we know when people in Hamburg talked
[01:39:56.720 --> 01:40:01.720]  and have told the newspapers about these guys talking about committing terror attacks in the U.S.,
[01:40:01.720 --> 01:40:03.720]  David Edger says nothing of interest happened.
[01:40:03.720 --> 01:40:08.720]  David Edger later came on, was appointed to OU just prior to 9-11,
[01:40:08.720 --> 01:40:13.720]  and he was in town here in Oklahoma when Mohammed Atta,
[01:40:13.720 --> 01:40:17.720]  the man he had been monitoring in Germany, had his meeting in Oklahoma City
[01:40:17.720 --> 01:40:19.720]  at the same hotel Tim McVeigh stayed in.
[01:40:19.720 --> 01:40:21.720]  Unbelievable.
[01:40:21.720 --> 01:40:26.720]  And that's been reported in the LA Times, the O'Reilly Factor reported it.
[01:40:26.720 --> 01:40:29.720]  It's not just weird, it's more than coincidence.
[01:40:29.720 --> 01:40:36.720]  Obviously, Edger was monitoring the meeting in Oklahoma City like he had done in Hamburg.
[01:40:36.720 --> 01:40:40.720]  I called one of the administration buildings down at OU last August,
[01:40:40.720 --> 01:40:43.720]  right after the school year started, and David Edger was working.
[01:40:43.720 --> 01:40:47.720]  I talked to one of his secretaries, so he still is a bona fide employee at the University of Oklahoma.
[01:40:47.720 --> 01:40:52.720]  Yeah, and my brother infiltrated his class, it wasn't that hard, it's an open university class,
[01:40:52.720 --> 01:40:59.720]  but he openly talked about subverting elections overseas, toppling governments, doing these black ops,
[01:40:59.720 --> 01:41:01.720]  and when someone asked me, you know, how can you do this?
[01:41:01.720 --> 01:41:05.720]  These are governments that people elect, he said, well, they were the bad guys.
[01:41:05.720 --> 01:41:09.720]  Well, define bad guys, you know, in whose eyes.
[01:41:09.720 --> 01:41:13.720]  And just as a side note to close out David Edger, his side business,
[01:41:13.720 --> 01:41:18.720]  he advises corporations on agricultural terrorism.
[01:41:18.720 --> 01:41:24.720]  So if something happens to our food supply, I think we know at least one figure to point at.
[01:41:24.720 --> 01:41:28.720]  But getting back to your question, Deb, as far as, you know, who done it,
[01:41:28.720 --> 01:41:33.720]  there's a lot of individuals, some that are still living here in Oklahoma City, gainfully employed,
[01:41:33.720 --> 01:41:39.720]  some that are actually very wealthy, that were indicted and sent to federal prison many years before the bombing had happened.
[01:41:39.720 --> 01:41:43.720]  So we're not talking about, you know, angels here or choir boys.
[01:41:43.720 --> 01:41:48.720]  These guys were dirty snakes even before the Oklahoma City bombing happened, and they're still wearing their ugly heads.
[01:41:48.720 --> 01:41:53.720]  One of them is a, well, I can't say the name or his profession, but he's very wealthy,
[01:41:53.720 --> 01:41:59.720]  and he does live here in Oklahoma City, and it's shocking to see him walk in the streets free.
[01:41:59.720 --> 01:42:02.720]  I mean, it is. This is what it is.
[01:42:02.720 --> 01:42:06.720]  Like Stephen Jones says, you have to call this former defense counsel from McBey,
[01:42:06.720 --> 01:42:12.720]  quote, during a brief meeting I had with him, he says, you've got to look at this case for what it is and what it's not.
[01:42:12.720 --> 01:42:15.720]  And when you have people still walking free that are unindicted,
[01:42:15.720 --> 01:42:21.720]  that can get up and, you know, live a free life with blood on their hands, this is absolutely despicable.
[01:42:21.720 --> 01:42:28.720]  What we're trying to do, and Holland and myself, and, you know, the number is around 65 people, it's not just me.
[01:42:28.720 --> 01:42:31.720]  I'm kind of like, as Mel Gibson would say, the traffic cop.
[01:42:31.720 --> 01:42:36.720]  I'm trying to keep order to the chaos and trying to get this film together.
[01:42:36.720 --> 01:42:40.720]  But it's the consensus of what everybody has worked on and what they found out.
[01:42:40.720 --> 01:42:43.720]  Some, in this case, a heck of a lot longer than I have been,
[01:42:43.720 --> 01:42:48.720]  and we're trying to just present it in an objective and factual and very respectful manner.
[01:42:48.720 --> 01:42:49.720]  We're not here to say anti-government.
[01:42:49.720 --> 01:42:53.720]  We're not here to say, you know, you're a slimeball for doing this, that, and the other thing.
[01:42:53.720 --> 01:42:58.720]  No, as a filmmaker, you've got to present the facts as they are, overwhelmingly, without an absolute doubt.
[01:42:58.720 --> 01:43:02.720]  There's no doubt at all that the official story simply doesn't hold water, and never will.
[01:43:02.720 --> 01:43:04.720]  It's a fantasy.
[01:43:04.720 --> 01:43:06.720]  Yeah, and like I said, we're not anti-government.
[01:43:06.720 --> 01:43:12.720]  Actually, we're pro-government, a government being defined as that organization which secures our liberties.
[01:43:12.720 --> 01:43:14.720]  But unfortunately, that's not what we live under.
[01:43:14.720 --> 01:43:21.720]  We live under a terrorist state, and we have to somehow overcome that through action of the people,
[01:43:21.720 --> 01:43:25.720]  refusing to obey, you know, refusing to pay into the system.
[01:43:25.720 --> 01:43:26.720]  I mean, they work on money.
[01:43:26.720 --> 01:43:29.720]  I mean, there's a lot of solutions we can discuss, and I don't know if any of them will work.
[01:43:29.720 --> 01:43:35.720]  But I mean, all we're doing is laying out the facts and letting people decide.
[01:43:35.720 --> 01:43:38.720]  We don't know who the ultimate perpetrators are.
[01:43:38.720 --> 01:43:40.720]  All right, well, listen, we're going to break.
[01:43:40.720 --> 01:43:42.720]  We've got a caller, Doug, from Texas, on the line.
[01:43:42.720 --> 01:43:46.720]  I want to take his call and get back on the other side and also discuss the Jesse Trinidad case
[01:43:46.720 --> 01:43:51.720]  and how that whole situation relates to the Oklahoma City bombing.
[01:43:51.720 --> 01:43:56.720]  We'll be right back.
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[01:45:14.720 --> 01:45:35.720]  Hello? Oh, man, in jail? You got something to do? Oh, man, I'm broke, dude.
[01:45:35.720 --> 01:45:44.720]  Some things in this world I will never understand. Some things I realize fully.
[01:45:44.720 --> 01:45:52.720]  Somebody's gonna police that policeman. Somebody's gonna police the bully.
[01:45:52.720 --> 01:45:59.720]  There's always a room at the top of the hill. I hear through the grapevine.
[01:45:59.720 --> 01:46:06.720]  All right, this is the Rule of Law on Rule of Law Radio. We're talking with Chris Emory and Holland Bannon-Neuwenhoff
[01:46:06.720 --> 01:46:11.720]  of Radio Free Oklahoma, hosts on this network on Wednesday evenings,
[01:46:11.720 --> 01:46:14.720]  and we are discussing the Oklahoma City bombing.
[01:46:14.720 --> 01:46:18.720]  We do have a caller, Doug from Texas, who wants to take his call,
[01:46:18.720 --> 01:46:24.720]  and then we want to move on to discuss the Jesse Trinity case and how that relates to the Oklahoma City bombing.
[01:46:24.720 --> 01:46:29.720]  Doug, what is your question for our guests?
[01:46:29.720 --> 01:46:37.720]  Hi, gentlemen. I just wanted you to know that Jamie Gorelick goes back all the way back to the government
[01:46:37.720 --> 01:46:43.720]  when they first started their reign of terror with Randy Weaver and then murdered his wife
[01:46:43.720 --> 01:46:52.720]  and his 14-year-old son, Sammy, and terrorized those people for a couple weeks.
[01:46:52.720 --> 01:47:04.720]  Jamie Gorelick was right there testifying at the Senate hearings, and they put on their little show.
[01:47:04.720 --> 01:47:14.720]  And then when they came to Waco and murdered 80-some-odd people or probably 100 people in the church in Waco,
[01:47:14.720 --> 01:47:22.720]  they branched the city, and Jamie Gorelick was right to speak of that, too.
[01:47:22.720 --> 01:47:26.720]  He was standing there for our government, whatever.
[01:47:26.720 --> 01:47:31.720]  She seems to be a real professional at her job.
[01:47:31.720 --> 01:47:33.720]  Are you going to tell me?
[01:47:33.720 --> 01:47:37.720]  Yeah, they'll probably nominate her for Supreme Court justice next.
[01:47:37.720 --> 01:47:41.720]  One of the monikers that we have for these characters, these snakes,
[01:47:41.720 --> 01:47:44.720]  is that at least they're consistent with what they do.
[01:47:44.720 --> 01:47:46.720]  Unfortunately, they're consistent in the wrong manner.
[01:47:46.720 --> 01:47:48.720]  There was some research material, Deb and Holland.
[01:47:48.720 --> 01:47:50.720]  I'm not going to belabor this point.
[01:47:50.720 --> 01:47:52.720]  I want you to interject, too.
[01:47:52.720 --> 01:47:56.720]  Down in Austin, when we were researching through the defense team notes,
[01:47:56.720 --> 01:48:00.720]  Wendy and I stumbled across a Dallas Morning News article that McVeigh actually saved
[01:48:00.720 --> 01:48:06.720]  and gave to the defense team, and it's among the several dozen boxes of material that's left over.
[01:48:06.720 --> 01:48:11.720]  In that particular page, McVeigh didn't realize it was unrelated to the article that he circled,
[01:48:11.720 --> 01:48:16.720]  but there was a small column article about Eric Holder recusing himself
[01:48:16.720 --> 01:48:20.720]  on the investigation of the Ruby Ridge investigation.
[01:48:20.720 --> 01:48:25.720]  Now, mind you, this is in August of 1995.
[01:48:25.720 --> 01:48:31.720]  Of course, Kenny Trinidad was murdered two days after this article was written,
[01:48:31.720 --> 01:48:36.720]  but Eric Holder recused himself because it says as early as 1988 in the article
[01:48:36.720 --> 01:48:41.720]  that he and Larry Potts had gone back and worked together in the Justice Department of various capacities.
[01:48:41.720 --> 01:48:44.720]  Pretty much Holder at the time was just a water boy.
[01:48:44.720 --> 01:48:47.720]  He was a lackey attorney with the Justice Department, worked his way up.
[01:48:47.720 --> 01:48:51.720]  In 1995, he says, I can't be part of this investigation.
[01:48:51.720 --> 01:48:53.720]  I know Larry Potts too well.
[01:48:53.720 --> 01:48:56.720]  Larry Potts' name came up in that case, of course,
[01:48:56.720 --> 01:49:01.720]  is directing the rules of engagement in the Denver SWAT team.
[01:49:01.720 --> 01:49:04.720]  He says, not only no, but hell no, we're not going to be part of this.
[01:49:04.720 --> 01:49:06.720]  He had to call in a team from Philadelphia to shoot at him.
[01:49:06.720 --> 01:49:10.720]  Yeah, the caller brought up Jay McGrellick working with Larry Potts.
[01:49:10.720 --> 01:49:15.720]  Yeah, Larry Potts issued orders in the Ruby Ridge case to shoot anyone on site who was carrying a weapon,
[01:49:15.720 --> 01:49:19.720]  and those orders were so outrageous that the Denver SWAT team refused,
[01:49:19.720 --> 01:49:23.720]  and they had to bring up a trained assassin, Lon Haruchi, to do it.
[01:49:23.720 --> 01:49:28.720]  But Larry Potts was also later named by Terry Nichols, and I believe it was January 2007.
[01:49:28.720 --> 01:49:29.720]  Am I correct, Chris?
[01:49:29.720 --> 01:49:30.720]  Yes.
[01:49:30.720 --> 01:49:36.720]  In his deposition, he named Larry Potts as the one heading the Oklahoma City operation,
[01:49:36.720 --> 01:49:41.720]  not the investigation, the actual bombing, the guy who was Tim McVeigh's handler.
[01:49:41.720 --> 01:49:46.720]  And keep in mind, Terry Nichols has nothing to gain by naming names.
[01:49:46.720 --> 01:49:47.720]  He is in federal prison.
[01:49:47.720 --> 01:49:51.720]  He is at the mercy of anyone who wants to kill him,
[01:49:51.720 --> 01:49:56.720]  and we have seen the fate of others who have talked about the Oklahoma City bombing being murder.
[01:49:56.720 --> 01:49:58.720]  So Terry Nichols is in a very delicate position,
[01:49:58.720 --> 01:50:04.720]  and takes the brave position of naming Larry Potts as Tim McVeigh's handler.
[01:50:04.720 --> 01:50:11.720]  Then Tim McVeigh told him, Terry Nichols, that he worked for the FBI, that he worked for Larry Potts.
[01:50:11.720 --> 01:50:14.720]  And this is consistent with a whole lot of information we've uncovered on Tim McVeigh,
[01:50:14.720 --> 01:50:19.720]  him being exposed by militia groups he was trying to implicate in crimes.
[01:50:19.720 --> 01:50:28.720]  We have Tim McVeigh on tape taking U.S. Army training a couple years after he left the Army,
[01:50:28.720 --> 01:50:32.720]  after he has been going to gun shows and passing out anti-government literature
[01:50:32.720 --> 01:50:36.720]  and showing up in Waco and giving an interview about how anti-government he is.
[01:50:36.720 --> 01:50:42.720]  Then he shows up later after that in U.S. Army uniform at a National Guard base
[01:50:42.720 --> 01:50:45.720]  that also has a explosives and demolition school.
[01:50:45.720 --> 01:50:49.720]  I'm looking at that right now as we speak, and it was that Hustler magazine article,
[01:50:49.720 --> 01:50:52.720]  brought up October, what, 06, I believe.
[01:50:52.720 --> 01:51:03.720]  Yes, the Bill Bean tape, which was confirmed by visual and audio technology to be Tim McVeigh.
[01:51:03.720 --> 01:51:08.720]  The test was conducted by Professor Blomgren, I think his name was, out of Utah,
[01:51:08.720 --> 01:51:15.720]  which has a famed school for audio technology for analyzing voice.
[01:51:15.720 --> 01:51:21.720]  This professor said that all his data indicates that it's Tim McVeigh on this tape
[01:51:21.720 --> 01:51:28.720]  in U.S. Army uniform taking training after he's been spotted frequenting anti-government circles.
[01:51:28.720 --> 01:51:31.720]  This was within the two-and-a-half to three-month time frame.
[01:51:31.720 --> 01:51:33.720]  The FBI completely lost track of McVeigh.
[01:51:33.720 --> 01:51:34.720]  The black hole.
[01:51:34.720 --> 01:51:36.720]  They had no idea where he was.
[01:51:36.720 --> 01:51:40.720]  People in Tim McVeigh's life, we filled in, Bill Bean filled in, Hustler magazine,
[01:51:40.720 --> 01:51:46.720]  which despite their pornographic content, they do have an impressive investigative journalist team.
[01:51:46.720 --> 01:51:48.720]  They filled in that black hole for the FBI.
[01:51:48.720 --> 01:51:50.720]  Yes, anybody questions even the writer?
[01:51:50.720 --> 01:51:51.720]  We know him.
[01:51:51.720 --> 01:51:53.720]  He used to work for the Wall Street Journal.
[01:51:53.720 --> 01:51:57.720]  Larry Flynn Productions hires good people away from other newspapers.
[01:51:57.720 --> 01:51:59.720]  It was actually a step up for this guy.
[01:51:59.720 --> 01:52:04.720]  Holland and I had a chance to communicate with him on various capacities several times.
[01:52:04.720 --> 01:52:09.720]  Keep in mind, Larry Flynn may have been shot because he offered that reward for information on the JFK assassination.
[01:52:09.720 --> 01:52:16.720]  So he, Larry Flynn himself, despite his personal picadillios, does have a mind for the truth.
[01:52:16.720 --> 01:52:21.720]  Getting back to the caller's statement, though, yeah, Jarellic, you've got Larry Potts, you've got Eric Holder.
[01:52:21.720 --> 01:52:23.720]  It's like these guys, these people are bobbing their bells.
[01:52:23.720 --> 01:52:26.720]  They keep popping up in all of these cases.
[01:52:26.720 --> 01:52:29.720]  And it's like Holland and I lamented many times, you get a checklist,
[01:52:29.720 --> 01:52:33.720]  a punch list of how these guys are going to handle not only the planning, the commission,
[01:52:33.720 --> 01:52:36.720]  and the cover-up of the case, but the overall scheme of, OK,
[01:52:36.720 --> 01:52:39.720]  what happens when you have credible witnesses come forward?
[01:52:39.720 --> 01:52:40.720]  It's scary.
[01:52:40.720 --> 01:52:43.720]  I mean, you can almost call the shots verbatim.
[01:52:43.720 --> 01:52:45.720]  And we know it sometimes better than they do.
[01:52:45.720 --> 01:52:46.720]  It's unbelievable.
[01:52:46.720 --> 01:52:51.720]  And so your caller is right on the mark about that.
[01:52:51.720 --> 01:52:52.720]  Unbelievable.
[01:52:52.720 --> 01:52:58.720]  It just astounds me, the gall, that they keep using these same people over and over.
[01:52:58.720 --> 01:52:59.720]  And it's so obvious.
[01:52:59.720 --> 01:53:01.720]  It's like they don't care.
[01:53:01.720 --> 01:53:07.720]  They don't care that they're just, yeah, we did it, yeah, and we're covering it up.
[01:53:07.720 --> 01:53:08.720]  What are you going to do about it?
[01:53:08.720 --> 01:53:12.720]  I mean, so, OK, well, we're going to do something about it then.
[01:53:12.720 --> 01:53:18.720]  They gain strength through our apathy because anyone who digs into this
[01:53:18.720 --> 01:53:20.720]  discovers that the government's lying.
[01:53:20.720 --> 01:53:23.720]  And when no action is taken, they gain strength from that.
[01:53:23.720 --> 01:53:24.720]  And they continue to do it.
[01:53:24.720 --> 01:53:25.720]  They're like a serial killer.
[01:53:25.720 --> 01:53:27.720]  Literally, it's a serial government killer.
[01:53:27.720 --> 01:53:31.720]  A serial killer doesn't stop, he keeps on killing until he dies or goes insane
[01:53:31.720 --> 01:53:33.720]  or commits suicide.
[01:53:33.720 --> 01:53:38.720]  And the Oklahoma City bombing, 9-11, TWA, I mean, all of these things matter
[01:53:38.720 --> 01:53:42.720]  even though they're in the past because it's going to keep on happening, people.
[01:53:42.720 --> 01:53:45.720]  It's going to keep on happening unless we put a stop to it.
[01:53:45.720 --> 01:53:47.720]  They must be stopped.
[01:53:47.720 --> 01:53:51.720]  Oh, yeah, it's going to keep – go ahead, Chris.
[01:53:51.720 --> 01:53:56.720]  The good agents that do step forward, and Colin and I know of a handful here in
[01:53:56.720 --> 01:54:00.720]  Oklahoma City, once again, got to qualify that the local, the county, the state
[01:54:00.720 --> 01:54:04.720]  and the federal, there are a lot of very good law enforcement officers, both
[01:54:04.720 --> 01:54:07.720]  civilian and carrying the badge and the sidearm, that really wanted the truth
[01:54:07.720 --> 01:54:08.720]  on this case to come out.
[01:54:08.720 --> 01:54:11.720]  Yeah, some of our best friends have been LEOs, law enforcement officers,
[01:54:11.720 --> 01:54:13.720]  and even some FBI agents.
[01:54:13.720 --> 01:54:16.720]  I just read Sandra Hicks' book, The Big Wedding, and he interviewed some FBI
[01:54:16.720 --> 01:54:21.720]  agents, and a lot of them said that they prefer not to get promoted because if
[01:54:21.720 --> 01:54:24.720]  they stay as field double agents, they can still do good work.
[01:54:24.720 --> 01:54:28.720]  Because if you get promoted to DC, no agent wants to go to DC because of the
[01:54:28.720 --> 01:54:30.720]  commute and all you're doing is shuffling paper.
[01:54:30.720 --> 01:54:34.720]  They say the only reason an FBI agent goes to DC is because he wants the power,
[01:54:34.720 --> 01:54:36.720]  because there's nothing else in there for it.
[01:54:36.720 --> 01:54:41.720]  So basically the scum rises to the top, and you have a lot of good agents on
[01:54:41.720 --> 01:54:44.720]  the ground doing good work, but once again, they're in a paramilitary
[01:54:44.720 --> 01:54:45.720]  organization.
[01:54:45.720 --> 01:54:48.720]  They still have to follow orders when they're told to ignore something.
[01:54:48.720 --> 01:54:52.720]  So, I mean, we still have friends in law enforcement who have helped us out
[01:54:52.720 --> 01:54:56.720]  with situations in the past, who have provided us information, firefighter
[01:54:56.720 --> 01:55:00.720]  personnel, law enforcement officers on the ground at Oklahoma City who found
[01:55:00.720 --> 01:55:02.720]  other explosives in the building.
[01:55:02.720 --> 01:55:06.720]  These are from bomb squad personnel who found other explosives in the building.
[01:55:06.720 --> 01:55:09.720]  So, I mean, there are a lot of good cops out there.
[01:55:09.720 --> 01:55:13.720]  And retired Army CID officers, that's the military version of the FBI.
[01:55:13.720 --> 01:55:14.720]  These guys are sharp.
[01:55:14.720 --> 01:55:18.720]  You know, a 20-year veteran in the CID, he's kicked off the crime scene two
[01:55:18.720 --> 01:55:22.720]  hours after he's on there, yank his ID badge in his heart out and tell him to
[01:55:22.720 --> 01:55:23.720]  get the hell out of there.
[01:55:23.720 --> 01:55:24.720]  He knew what had happened.
[01:55:24.720 --> 01:55:27.720]  I mean, that's what he did for his 20 years.
[01:55:27.720 --> 01:55:31.720]  So, you know, so you see the disdain and disrespect of the people that
[01:55:31.720 --> 01:55:33.720]  actually wanted the truth to come out.
[01:55:33.720 --> 01:55:37.720]  It's really, it's going to be a, we know it's going to be a great film.
[01:55:37.720 --> 01:55:40.720]  The issue right now is just the funding issue, but we're slowly working around
[01:55:40.720 --> 01:55:45.720]  that, but the content is there, the quality, the length, and, you know, we
[01:55:45.720 --> 01:55:47.720]  already have the distributors lined up.
[01:55:47.720 --> 01:55:51.720]  So let's, Deb, you wanted to get, to finish up, I guess, the segment on the
[01:55:51.720 --> 01:55:52.720]  Trentadou case, right?
[01:55:52.720 --> 01:55:53.720]  Well.
[01:55:53.720 --> 01:55:55.720]  And Eric Holder is a perfect segue to that.
[01:55:55.720 --> 01:55:56.720]  Sure.
[01:55:56.720 --> 01:55:57.720]  Go ahead, Chris.
[01:55:57.720 --> 01:56:02.720]  Well, Holland, why don't you go ahead and give a review of Kenny's demise.
[01:56:02.720 --> 01:56:03.720]  Okay.
[01:56:03.720 --> 01:56:04.720]  Yeah.
[01:56:04.720 --> 01:56:05.720]  Okay.
[01:56:05.720 --> 01:56:08.720]  Kenny Trentadou was a convicted bank robber.
[01:56:08.720 --> 01:56:13.720]  He was, perhaps was involved with the Midwest Bank Robbers Gang, which was a
[01:56:13.720 --> 01:56:17.720]  white supremacist gang operating in the early 90s that turned out later to be
[01:56:17.720 --> 01:56:22.720]  thoroughly infiltrated by FBI personnel and, as it turns out, possibly one CIA
[01:56:22.720 --> 01:56:24.720]  asset.
[01:56:24.720 --> 01:56:30.720]  Anyways, he was serving a short jail term for a parole violation.
[01:56:30.720 --> 01:56:33.720]  I think he'd gone down to Mexico without asking permission or something.
[01:56:33.720 --> 01:56:37.720]  I believe he was two months away from being released, and he was found in a
[01:56:37.720 --> 01:56:39.720]  cell at the Oklahoma City Federal Transfer Center.
[01:56:39.720 --> 01:56:43.720]  I believe, actually, I think it's in El Reno, the El Reno Federal Transfer
[01:56:43.720 --> 01:56:44.720]  Center outside Oklahoma City.
[01:56:44.720 --> 01:56:48.720]  He was found in a cell in August, I believe, of 1995.
[01:56:48.720 --> 01:56:51.720]  Shortly after the bombing, he had been tortured to death.
[01:56:51.720 --> 01:56:55.720]  He had been bruised all over his body, bruised on the soles of his feet.
[01:56:55.720 --> 01:56:57.720]  He had been cut all over his body.
[01:56:57.720 --> 01:57:02.720]  His sword had been cut, and he was found hanging by a flimsy ligament, his feet
[01:57:02.720 --> 01:57:03.720]  still hanging on the ground.
[01:57:03.720 --> 01:57:07.720]  And he was ruled a suicide, despite the fact that the prisoner across the way
[01:57:07.720 --> 01:57:11.720]  reported that the Bureau of Prison Personnel had entered that cell.
[01:57:11.720 --> 01:57:14.720]  The sounds of a struggle emerged, and when they left, they had blood on their
[01:57:14.720 --> 01:57:18.720]  uniforms, and there was a sound of moaning coming from the cell.
[01:57:18.720 --> 01:57:22.720]  This prisoner was later found hung in his own cell before he could give
[01:57:22.720 --> 01:57:24.720]  deposition on those facts.
[01:57:24.720 --> 01:57:30.720]  As it turns out, Tim McVeigh, before he was executed, sent word to
[01:57:30.720 --> 01:57:34.720]  Trentadou's brother, Jesse Trentadou, a lawyer out of Utah, sent word to
[01:57:34.720 --> 01:57:40.720]  Jesse that his brother, Kent, had been killed because of his resemblance to
[01:57:40.720 --> 01:57:44.720]  a man named Guthrie, who was involved with the Midwest Bank Robbers Gang,
[01:57:44.720 --> 01:57:47.720]  who bore a very striking resemblance to Trentadou.
[01:57:47.720 --> 01:57:51.720]  They both had the same tattoo, the same build, the same mustache, and
[01:57:51.720 --> 01:57:54.720]  apparently it was some kind of case of mistaken identity and interrogation
[01:57:54.720 --> 01:57:56.720]  that somehow went wrong.
[01:57:56.720 --> 01:57:59.720]  We've got about a minute left, Paul, and I've got the color board up here.
[01:57:59.720 --> 01:58:00.720]  Think about it.
[01:58:00.720 --> 01:58:04.720]  The web spec for any of the listeners that want a really good encapsulation
[01:58:04.720 --> 01:58:09.720]  of what happened, it's kmtreward.com.
[01:58:09.720 --> 01:58:12.720]  You can email me at okctruth.cox.net.
[01:58:12.720 --> 01:58:16.720]  I will send them the PDF documents of Jesse, beautiful summation of the
[01:58:16.720 --> 01:58:20.720]  case, the letter and the 34-page document he sent to every single member
[01:58:20.720 --> 01:58:24.720]  of the Senate Judiciary Committee asking that Eric Holder not be approved on
[01:58:24.720 --> 01:58:30.720]  the nomination for our Attorney General because Holder was complicit in
[01:58:30.720 --> 01:58:32.720]  cover-up of Kenny Trentadou's murder.
[01:58:32.720 --> 01:58:33.720]  All right.
[01:58:33.720 --> 01:58:36.720]  And if people want to get the final report, where do they get that, Chris?
[01:58:36.720 --> 01:58:39.720]  www.okcbombing.net.
[01:58:39.720 --> 01:58:40.720]  All right.
[01:58:40.720 --> 01:58:41.720]  Excellent.
[01:58:41.720 --> 01:58:42.720]  Okay.
[01:58:42.720 --> 01:58:43.720]  We're at the end of the show.
[01:58:43.720 --> 01:58:46.720]  Holland, Chris, thank you so much for laying it all out for us.
[01:58:46.720 --> 01:58:48.720]  I really, really, really appreciate it.
[01:58:48.720 --> 01:58:50.720]  I'm sure our listeners appreciate it as well, too.
[01:58:50.720 --> 01:58:51.720]  It's always an honor.
[01:58:51.720 --> 01:58:52.720]  Thank you, Deb.
[01:58:52.720 --> 01:58:54.720]  All right, we'll be back tomorrow night.
[01:59:22.720 --> 01:59:23.720]  Thank you, Deb.
[01:59:52.720 --> 01:59:59.720]  Thank you, Deb.